[rds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HD-5000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I bought a Denon AVR-3805 on craigslist for $100. I'd like to see a DIY device that does what it does for the same price in parts.

I don't think we're comparing DIY to what you can buy stolen equipment for

Also, the CKKIII is a much better headphone amp than the crappy headphone amps in those denon receivers.

 

[fishski13]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mariuslk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Interesting, I didn't realize that taxes, marketing costs, packaging etc. are such a huge percentage of the product's price. So if you are looking at the price/performance ratio, DIY can be much better if you put in some effort in it. I have to agree with you guys, the costs is not the main reason I wanted to go DIY this time. It was a whole lot of fun building the amp, I'm definitely going into more DIY. One Saturday night I was working on the amp, suddenly I found out that it was 5:30 in the morning! Uncle Erik; I saw you mentioned DIY speakers. That is actually a good idea! What is a good source for finding information about that?

re: speakers, diyAudio is the place.

the chassis is a huge percentage of the total cost/time of a commercial product - it's no different with a DIY build.

 

[fishski13]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think we're comparing DIY to what you can buy stolen equipment for Also, the CKKIII is a much better headphone amp than the crappy headphone amps in those denon receivers.

 

[dasmb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HD-5000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I bought a Denon AVR-3805 on craigslist for $100. I'd like to see a DIY device that does what it does for the same price in parts.

Well, that's hardly commercial, is it?

I have a friend who bought a gorgeous pair of AR three ways at an estate sale for $10. New, they were a grand. Used on eBay, likely a few hundo. The modern equivalent would run you more than a grand. My jaw dropped, and it was only my precious integrity that kept me from buying them out from under him for $20 and some lies.

At the other extreme, I just built a little listening station for work...CMOY in a bright red cigar box with a little dock for the iPod. Matching red cables and a satin lined lift-out tray for storage. Chatting with a friend who sells crafts, she figured with a little polish and practice such an item would sell easily for $200 on Etsy. My cost? $30 in parts, which includes $15 in extravagant high end caps and connectors.

Of course, the 10-20 hours effort I put into it means I won't be leaving my day job. Really, the value comes from the features that only make sense for my specific tastes -- low gain, DC coupling, mute switch, A/B switch and swappable switches & connectors for future experimentation. Not to mention the satisfaction of knowing why every component is there, and knowing the tradeoffs made were my own choice.

What's the verdict? Anything is worth it if you enjoy the music more and can still pay your rent. You want to feel really great, though -- build it yourself, using obscene over engineering, and brag about it to your friends. Then spend the money you saved at the next record show.

 

[Operandi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mariuslk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Uncle Erik; I saw you mentioned DIY speakers. That is actually a good idea! What is a good source for finding information about that?

I can attest to the advantages of DIY speakers. I've heard several designs now and they have all been pretty impressive, a good DIY design will absolutely smoke a retail speaker in the same price category. The 3x - 4x parts value to finished product holds up, though it works best when you are spending $200. It is really hard to compete with the ~$100 - $150 mass produced stuff you see in the likes of BB (though it can be done) but $500 in parts will be competing with $1000 - $2000 retail speakers.

Check out the HTGuide (Mission Possible DIY) Forums and the Parts Express Tech Talk Forum, lots of really smart and helpful people some of them even pro audio engineers.

 

[HD-5000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think we're comparing DIY to what you can buy stolen equipment for Also, the CKKIII is a much better headphone amp than the crappy headphone amps in those denon receivers.

And a Denon receiver is far more sophisticated than any 'headphone amp'. Apples and oranges.

My point was that DIY isn't always the best you can get for the money (for audio equipment). I was agreeing with atothex in that headphone amps are a niche market and so, retail prices on headphone amps are hugely inflated.

 

[dasmb]

I personally like cheap, good hi-fi whereever it comes from.

My local record shop sold me a very clean Pioneer 518 for $75 with a newish AT cart in it. Table beats the Pro-ject I was gonna buy, with better controls, for a fifth of the price. Well, after I cleaned it, re-wired it, glues the feet back on and buffed the scratches out of the dust cover, anyhow...

 

[Uncle Erik]

Mariuslk, there are lots and lots of great DIY speaker resources! DIY Audio is an excellent recommendation. Also try the Melhuish singledriver site, the Madisound Forums, and Linkwitz Labs. But that just scratches the surface. AudioXpress Magazine carries plans and Vance Dickason's "Loudspeaker Cookbook" is wonderful. You can find plans for conventional dynamics, electrostats, ribbons, planars, and even plasma speakers out there. The field of projects is incredible - you can find hundreds of speakers you'll wan to build.

A conventional speaker I built and really enjoy is the ProAc Response 2.5 clone. It clones a well-regarded commercial speaker. I put about $1,000 into the project, but the real thing retailed for $4,500. At the low end, you can scrape together a pair of Voigt Pipes (like the excellent Cain & Cain Abby) for $100-$150. At the other end are projects like the Linkwitz Orion+. I have about $6,000 into them and maybe another $500 to finish. If it wasn't for this job keeping me late every night and through the weekends.... But I shouldn't complain. I'll get them finished. Anyhow, I'm a sucker for dipoles and the Orion+ is about the ultimate statement. The only project I see beyond them are electromagnetically-powered ribbons I occasionally fantasize about.

 

[qusp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HD-5000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif And a Denon receiver is far more sophisticated than any 'headphone amp'. Apples and oranges.

sorry but that is just baloney, i'm assuming you dont know of the beta22, DIY T2, QRV08, ackodac, buffalo32 V2, and many even more extreme things that mad scientists like peufeu build in their garage; sorry but your denon receiver doesnt come close to the sophistication of some modern DIY. please remember that your denon was designed by people too and people doing ridiculous over the top non-commercial things that would never be built, due to the cost and R&D involved in making it a reality, tend to make some insanely sophisticated stuff, rather than the bare minimum needed to fulfill a specific task well, like your denon.

Quote:

My point was that DIY isn't always the best you can get for the money (for audio equipment). I was agreeing with atothex in that headphone amps are a niche market and so, retail prices on headphone amps are hugely inflated.

yes in some cases, IMO low level consumer goods or used 20 year old stuff that isnt even comparable to new because its errmm..... vintage, so has already made its profit long ago. IMO its not even relevant to the OP, I bought my vintage converse low tops from a garage sale for 3 dollars too; is that comparable to their value vs new shoes now?

DIY doesnt always save money (especially if you consider time) that is correct, some saves quite a bit of money; regardless its almost always great fun and at the end of it you can have an object that meets your specifications exactly, including exactly matching your decor and other audio gear if you desire. tailor made even, perhaps using a wood that you love but has fallen out of favor, then filled with the most modern DIY dac available. the money you do spend can be spent in the areas that matter to you the most (optimized) and other areas less, or even just omitted altogether in favor of doing what you want the most better.

it is this innate ability for DIY to be all things to all people that is the power of it IMO and I can make sure with my own hands that parts used are going to be up to the job. then of course there is that amazing effect, just like a meal you cooked for yourself that tastes like no other because you made it, thats no small component of what makes the dac or amp that you built sound so fantastic. if solid design principles and quality parts are used it will sound great to others as well, but knowing you made it brings satisfaction that adds at least 10% (arbitrary number) which is huge in audio as we all know

 

[AndrewFischer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif figure a factor or 3 (at least) on the parts cost. every little penny 'overspent' on a resistor is 3x (or more) reflected in price. if the vendor has a 'name' then add in a huge amount for marketing, packaging, glossies, sales events, you name it.

All true. Don't forget to add in retail markup too.


In general commercial manufacturers spend a lot less for parts than a DIY person does. They buy parts directly from the manufacturers and order exact quantities needed for production. I may have to buy 100 of a part when I need 12. If Denon need 21,540 transistors for 5385 amplifiers, they can order exactly that number. Prices are negotiated. The Budgetary Pricing shown on websites is just a starting point for volume customers.


Generally I pay prototype prices for PCBs. That's about $40 each. Even group buy prices for boards are much higher than what commercial manufacturer pays. Front and Rear panels for my latest project were 85,56€ ouch.

We tend to use more expensive parts too. I might use RN55Ds where a commercial product might use generic 1% metal film in some places and dirt cheap 5% carbon film every where else.

 

[Juaquin]

Regarding the Retail = 3x Parts formula, I had a Professor who spent many years in the commercial/retail sector (not audio, but electronics) who said the same thing. If you see an RC car at radioshack for $30, roughly $10 each went to parts, labor/manufacturing, and overhead/profit. Of course this fluctuates depending on the item, price range, branding, etc, but it's a good guideline in the general sense.

That said, I doubt there are many people who's primary motivation for DIY audio is saving money. Pretty much everyone here is mostly in it for entertainment, curiosity, and the feeling of accomplishment that comes with building your own gear. That, and you'll probably end up spending way more in the long run because you just have to keep building more and more stuff.

 

[linuxworks]

another thing about diy and NOT saving money: I often order extra parts while I'm placing the order. I'll burn a few, maybe some will come bad and maybe some will need replacing later. this also decreases your 'savings' as you have to over-buy on some projects. and if you have to order a 100 of soemthing to get matched pairs or quads, there goes your money AND time!

then again, diy designs often use parts that are 'available' and not specialty things like one-off chips from some vendor who won't sell to you in single unit qtys. I can't get too many of my 'bought' gears fixed but I can fix ALL my diy gear myself. probably will be able to for years to come, also.

 

[FraGGleR]

I can't overstate enough how much I enjoy DIY (or at least the limited exposure I have so far) for the control aspect that people have touched upon. If you have the vision, time, skill, and money, you can make something fairly ordinary into something extraordinary. I like to add functionality to things, so as soon as I find enough money for the guts, I am going to take my broken original NES (no yellowing!) and put a modern computer in it to use as an emulator and media extender. New life for a cherished piece of my childhood. In fact, now that I have some DIY under my belt, I can do more with it like wiring the buttons for actual functionality, replace ports more cleanly, etc. I can make cables look exactly the way I want so that they fit in with the overall aesthetic theme that I am going for. And for simple enough things right now, I can add functionality to suit my needs, like two RCA outputs from my Bantam (which will soon be adapted into a switch to be put into a new case for my amp). The creativity and control that I have with DIY is worth more to me than any money I might save right now. (That is changing since I am just about out of money, though

)

 

[randytsuch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif another thing about diy and NOT saving money: I often order extra parts while I'm placing the order. I'll burn a few, maybe some will come bad and maybe some will need replacing later. this also decreases your 'savings' as you have to over-buy on some projects. and if you have to order a 100 of soemthing to get matched pairs or quads, there goes your money AND time! then again, diy designs often use parts that are 'available' and not specialty things like one-off chips from some vendor who won't sell to you in single unit qtys. I can't get too many of my 'bought' gears fixed but I can fix ALL my diy gear myself. probably will be able to for years to come, also.

I will often order extra resistors, especially if they are cheap, and hand match them. Not sure if it really makes a difference, but its pretty easy to do, and I can do it. I doubt commercial guys take the time to do things like this.

Headphone products, especially amps are a natural diy. They are relatively simple things, and with a low demand. Because of the low demand, a manufacturer has to sell it at a higher cost, to pay for his engineering with fewer product sales.

At the same time, a person can make a good diy amp with a board from glassjar or somebody like that, and a handfull of parts. The hardest part (for me) is putting it in a chassis, and making it look kind of nice.

Randy

 

[HD-5000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif sorry but that is just baloney, i'm assuming you dont know of the beta22, DIY T2, QRV08, ackodac, buffalo32 V2, and many even more extreme things that mad scientists like peufeu build in their garage; sorry but your denon receiver doesnt come close to the sophistication of some modern DIY. please remember that your denon was designed by people too and people doing ridiculous over the top non-commercial things that would never be built, due to the cost and R&D involved in making it a reality, tend to make some insanely sophisticated stuff, rather than the bare minimum needed to fulfill a specific task well, like your denon. yes in some cases, IMO low level consumer goods or used 20 year old stuff that isnt even comparable to new because its errmm..... vintage, so has already made its profit long ago. IMO its not even relevant to the OP, I bought my vintage converse low tops from a garage sale for 3 dollars too; is that comparable to their value vs new shoes now? DIY doesnt always save money (especially if you consider time) that is correct, some saves quite a bit of money; regardless its almost always great fun and at the end of it you can have an object that meets your specifications exactly, including exactly matching your decor and other audio gear if you desire. tailor made even, perhaps using a wood that you love but has fallen out of favor, then filled with the most modern DIY dac available. the money you do spend can be spent in the areas that matter to you the most (optimized) and other areas less, or even just omitted altogether in favor of doing what you want the most better. it is this innate ability for DIY to be all things to all people that is the power of it IMO and I can make sure with my own hands that parts used are going to be up to the job. then of course there is that amazing effect, just like a meal you cooked for yourself that tastes like no other because you made it, thats no small component of what makes the dac or amp that you built sound so fantastic. if solid design principles and quality parts are used it will sound great to others as well, but knowing you made it brings satisfaction that adds at least 10% (arbitrary number) which is huge in audio as we all know

You didn't really get my point. It's simply that Denon (and Onkyo, Yamaha, and pioneer) enjoy a huge economy of scale. If home theater receivers sold in the same numbers as audiophile-quality headphone amps, each receiver would probably cost $5000> (just a guess) and that's just to break even.

Commercial headphone amps are simple devices for the prices they command. This is where DIY really shows its strength.