[Llloyd]

Sound quality, in terms of hearing the details, can be very high at a very low price.  What people refer to as "microdetails" maybe not as much.  I doubt this even at all important to anyone other than someone very much into music.  Even so, not hearing whatever microdetails is not going to stop a well written song from being great.  There's a certain level of quality maybe I won't be able to handle anymore, such as FM radio  level quality ? 48kbps? maybe it's less than that, but  either way it's very low, and lower than 192 is usually considered just plain bad by even non audiophiles.
 
This is what I've found in my personal experience.  Those little details matter much more to people who pick out all the instruments and listen to each one individually.  When I listen to music I'm not only paying attention to the playing style but the arrangements and listening for those little details that matter to me as a musician and music lover.  I want to fully understand the music so the more information I have, you could say the more enjoyment I get.
 
If you are a  person who mostly just pays attention to the vocals of music, or just the overall  song, then the enjoyment you get out of audiophile products will diminish very quickly, and the amount of money you would want to invest would probably be less than $100, maybe equating to a simple pair of headphones with a preferred signature and your media player of choice.
 
So it all depends on what kind of enjoyment you want to get out of the music, what are you listening for, and what's specifically important to you.  If you are about those little details and you like to pick things out, then you will likely notice a difference.  In terms of training my ears to use audiophile equipment, well, that's never been apparent.  I've been using cheap stuff for the past 10 years and converting to higher end gear there was 0 break in time in terms of noticing the difference.  The first time I put on an audiophile headphone the difference was obvious.

 

[thelostMIDrange]

I recently went over to a guys house to buy his old mcintosh home stereo amp and also listened to his 'system' that he put together. This guy had about 100k worth of gear and he wanted to show me his reference system. Immediately I was listening to some very odd unatural sound and I struggled to contain my reaction, paid for the mac and skidaddled outa there. This was not the first time i've heard expensive rigs that did not sound right at all to me. It may be the rule and not the exception actually. the problem with hifi is that it's easy to 'affect' sound. Meaning the drive towards more fidelity almost always comes at a cost and a total setup can quickly end up sounding odd and unatural, but very hifi (detailed, soundstage etc). I believe there is a natural balance between the 'sound' and that extra something all hifi-ers are after and after a point, the sound can start to suffer at the expense of extension, separation, dynamics, punch, refinement etc. Maybe people make the mistaken assumption that if they fork over enough $ they can have their cake and eat it too as the saying goes, or more appropriate to this discussion, have the icing and the cake. Frankly, I've never heard hifi systems ever give me enough cake although they always give a thick layer of icing. Too much for me. I like my cake with either a little tasteful icing or none at all. and i suspect the op is of the same requirement?

 

[RayleighSilvers]

Hmmm I guess I am in the wrong hobby then. I did join this forum for the very reason that I wanted to enjoy my music but I find that I don't really pay attention to any details while I'm listening. I just enjoy the whole presentation as it is. My files probably don't contain the micro details you guys are talking about since they are mainstream music.
 
When it comes to what I'm looking for I would like all the instruments to be clearly heard, but still be musical, rather than completely distinct and separate. For me it's the overall presentation, which means I should just pick the headphone with the right sound signature I'm looking for. Trouble is the one I'm looking for costs £300/$500 

 (AD2000)

 

[RayleighSilvers]

 
Quote:

If you don't know what the high-end fuss is all about, go to a meet, and listen to an Orpheus rig, or something similar. I'm pretty sure it will quickly tell you what's what.

 
My problem with that is why do I have to listen to such a TOTL rig to understand what Hi-fi is about? Surely even something that's mid-fi like the AD900/HD558/D2000 (all of which I have tried) should blow my $30 panasonics out of the window. I think I already know the answer in that my ears aren't experienced enough to pick up the details which make hi-fi, or I don't actually know what Hi-Fi is or the music I listen to isn't Hi-Fi. It's probably all three I guess.
 

 

[thelostMIDrange]

the problem is we're using vague words to describe impossible things. hifi has many meaning to different people. If the word means - the sound coming out of an orpheus rig then discussion is over. So I say let that be hifi, but let's not assume hifi is the highest form of audio reproduction or the best. I personally feel midfi gets is more right. So  I guess I agree with you that you don't have to hear TOTL setup to hear enjoyable sound, but you do need to hear one to hear hifi sound. Hifi sound is for a small and select group of people really. 99.9 % of the world is really a midfi enthusiest. Actually that's not accurate, most peoiple don't care at all. let's say 90% are lofi enthusiest. 9.99 are mid fi and .1 are hifi enthusiests......maybe within midfi, lo midfi and hi midfi. I count myself as high midfi.

 

[chrislangley4253]

My magnums and my portapros were the only two headphones worth the price.. oh and my Blox m2c.

 

[thelostMIDrange]

there should be a new shorthand for 'worth the price'. and I agree, alot of the stuff for sale is not WTP for most people. That's why hifi is so lucrative. There are lots of people within that .1% who have way too much money to spend on audio, searching for the holy grail. But in general, the wealthiest pied pipers tend to be whacked so why follow them up (down?).

 

[Eschaton]

 
Quote:

 
 
My problem with that is why do I have to listen to such a TOTL rig to understand what Hi-fi is about? Surely even something that's mid-fi like the AD900/HD558/D2000 (all of which I have tried) should blow my $30 panasonics out of the window. I think I already know the answer in that my ears aren't experienced enough to pick up the details which make hi-fi, or I don't actually know what Hi-Fi is or the music I listen to isn't Hi-Fi. It's probably all three I guess.
 

 
I assume you're talking about the HTF600's when you refer to 30 dollar Panasonics.  Those headphones are, if you'll permit me the slang, BOSS.  It probably doesn't cost more than 30 dollars for all the raw materials and time for Sennheiser to create a pair of HD558's.  It probably doesn't cost more than 60 dollars for the time and materials to create a pair of AD2000's.  The dollar sign doesn't mean everything.  There's occasional threads around here about cheap gear with excellent audio.  It's not going to equal electrostatics.  It's not going to equal expensive dynamics, or even some relatively cheap dynamics in some qualities.  It's not going to be perfect, because, I assume, many of these great deals were great on accident.  I doubt Panasonic changed details of the driver by percentage points at a time to get just that particular frequency response.  They probably designed it, tested it, said "sweet!" and brought it to market.  The price of more expensive 'phones often reflects the time spent on design, followed by materials and labor, plus whatever markup the company feels is warranted.  This does not always equate to a better sound or even a better value.  As an analogy, it is entirely possible for you, with a little know-how, to pick up a violin, run the bow across the strings, and create a harmonic more perfect than Vivaldi even imagined.  It's just not very likely.  The good news with headphones is that we can mass produce those metaphorical moments of perfection.  But as with all things, constant repetition and refinement will, in the end, typically create better quality.
 
I just bought a pair of Q40's.  I can almost guarantee, without having heard them, they are not "100 dollars worth better" than HTF600s.  They've been described as being nearly identical.  So why'd I do it?  It really wasn't because I think it was worth it in a bang-to-buck analysis.  I'd rather the Q40's be priced at 50 dollars, but they have a sound signature I think I'd like better: everything that the HTF600's have, plus slightly better detailing and "maybe" slightly better mids and slightly better bass control.  I very much like the idea of that sound, and was willing to pay the asking price -- 'cause there ain't any other way I was getting it.  If someone makes better headphones that cost less, I'll be overjoyed.  I know what I like, and that's what I'm in this hobby for.  I'm not going to pay upwards of 200 dollars for a set of headphones, because there is a point at which all that great sound cannot make up for the impact to my wallet, but if I get the general impression something inside my price range is better, I'll buy it, and return, sell, or even keep the old set(s).  If it turns out to not be true, I'll probably make a post here saying as much.  But I'm just here looking for what I consider to be great sound, and I'm willing to pay a bit while I sniff it out using reviews, specs, and general impressions to guide me.
 
I guess I'll conclude by asking:  what's your ideal sound worth to you?  Never pay more than that.  I've seldom had to pay nearly that much, thanks to low-price gems, but I am willing to pay to get closer to my ideal, and it does not need to be a linear money-to-sound-quality ratio, because I'm in this hobby for the sound, not to find the best value.  If I can find a great pair of cans, and it's also a great value, awesome!  But value hunting isn't why I'm here.  It's for the sound.

 

[hekeli]

<inexperienced babble redacted>

 

[desirephone]

300$ to 400$ for a dac-amp-headphoens rig is probably the sweet spot. I guess you can get 95% sound quality of this, add 2000$ for additional 3% and probably 10000$ for 1 more % and ∞ for the last 1%.