[Blanchot]

I am at my most absolute in the straw men propped up to represent me by the people who argue with me. I used to just offer "rules of thumb", but I got buried in small exceptions to the rule. So now I diligently type out "NOS, defective by manufacture or design, impedance, user error, etc. etc. etc." each and every time just to avoid the conversation spinning off into irrelevant minutia. But did that help? Nope. You still say that I say all DACs sound the same.

Read carefully... "All DACs SHOULD sound the same. If they don't they aren't doing their job. Thankfully most modern DACs are audibly transparent."

So why do people spend thousands of $ on dacs? There are people on this forum who claim you haven't lived until you've heard a $10K dac.

BTW, here's an interesting case for you: https://goldensound.audio/2023/12/03/ta-dac200-review-two-dacs-in-one-box/ Two dacs in one (expensive) box. The reviewer says one sound significantly better than the other. What's going on here?

 

[71 dB]

So why do people spend thousands of $ on dacs?

People who have money want to spend it on luxury items. Some people believe the BS audio manufacturers tell them. Some people just want to have the "best" DAC in town for bragging rights. Maybe they like the look of an expensive DAC? It is like buying a Rolls Royce when you can get a really good and much more practical car taking you from A to B for 1/10 of the price.

Purchasing decisions are not often that rational. People want stuff for whatever reason and they'll buy it if they can afford it.

There are people on this forum who claim you haven't lived until you've heard a $10K dac.

Sure there are, but that is just their opinion favouring their choices in live. I can just as well say you haven't lived until you have heard Elgar's Oratorios The Apostles, Op. 49 and The Kingdom, Op. 51. Do you take me seriously? No? So why do you take seriously those who claim you haven't lived before you hear a $10K DAC?

BTW, here's an interesting case for you: https://goldensound.audio/2023/12/03/ta-dac200-review-two-dacs-in-one-box/ Two dacs in one (expensive) box. The reviewer says one sound significantly better than the other. What's going on here?

I don't know. I am not sure I want to spend half an hour to watch the video. There are many possible reasons The sound may in fact be different. You never know about these high end products. They don't always give transparent sound. They may give coloured sound on purpose.

 

[bigshot]

So why do people spend thousands of $ on dacs?

The reason is the same as why some people have six DACs or twenty different headphones. For some people, the hobby is acquiring and playing with equipment, not using that equipment to listen to music.

I see women on Facebook with over 100 antique cast iron skillets. Cast iron is cast iron. You might need a big one and a little one, but there’s no reason you need a hundred of them. They all cook the same, but they still talk about how one of their favorites cooks like a dream.

Why do people like vinyl when CD has better sound quality and is more convenient? Because they like the ritual of pulling out a record, cleaning it, and dropping the needle.

I have a collection of Bowie knives… big ones, small ones, ones with different shaped blades and carved handles. I’ve never gutted a deer and I’ve never fought at the Alamo. I really don’t have a use for one, much less ten. But I have them and I keep them nice and sharp and I take them out and hold them and admire them.

There are reasons beyond mere functionality why people collect things. For some it’s all about accumulating for others it’s the act of shopping and for others it’s just to admire a nice object. They can learn about their object and tell their friends all about it. They don’t have actually use it.

As for the two DACs, I have a high end SACD player that has a button marked “pure sound”. I’ve tried and tried to hear a difference between it switched on or off and I can’t hear any difference at all. I leave it switched on all the time. Why? Because when it’s on a pretty purple LED lights up. Purple gives me the impression of specialness.

(Shrug)

 

[bfreedma]

So there absolutely could not be any audible difference between current and previous models and they’re only in it for the money? Perhaps this DAC is for you then: https://echohifi.com/details/18146/Benchmark_DAC-1

According to you, DACs not only don't fit known science, they also don't follow the normal and well established paths for Sales and Capitalism? I never knew how special DACs were...

And to be more direct, I don't believe or have I seen evidence that there is any audible difference between the two assuming the identical settings are used. There may be new features, to help sell into the current market vs. the market the DAC1 emerged into, but none of those alter the audible output unless engaged.

But let me ask you this - How long do you think a company will last making the same product once sales begin to decline due to the age of the marketed technical content? In fact, can you find me any technology vendors who don't release updates and stick with their additional product, regardless of a significant decline in sales? And if you do find one, please publish the technical specs/testing that would clearly establish an audible difference in output.

Happy to discuss specifics if you have them, but simply posting DAC2 is better than DAC1 because 2>1 as a number isn't going to get us there.

 

[71 dB]

...to have worked with great engineers who work in world class studios and have “a great deal of knowledge”...

G

Maybe the reason why he has worked with great engineers is because he needs their knowledge and skills?

 

[Blanchot]

Sure there are, but that is just their opinion favouring their choices in live. I can just as well say you haven't lived until you have heard Elgar's Oratorios The Apostles, Op. 49 and The Kingdom, Op. 51. Do you take me seriously? No? So why do you take seriously those who claim you haven't lived before you hear a $10K DAC?

I don't take them seriously and I don't want to spend $10K to find out what they mean. But it's interesting to observe the conflicting opinions on the subject of dacs, both sides being equally opinionated.

Your Elgar recommendation, on the other hand, I take seriously because I know you are knowledgeable about classical music. Finland is known for the quality of it's music education. I think that's the reason Finland has fostered so many great composers. What recordings of the Oratorios would you recommend? My knowledge of Elgar is limited to the cello concerto and the Sea Pictures.

 

[71 dB]

...simply posting DAC2 is better than DAC1 because 2>1 as a number isn't going to get us there.

Die Hard 2 is not a better movie than the first one.

 

[knownothing2]

2. Again, another falsehood to argue a strawman. How many times are you going to be so rude? Firstly, of course I can “hear audible differences in electronics”, it would be impossible to do my job or teach it to others if I couldn’t. But, of course I cannot hear differences which are inaudible (as the measurements prove and Benchmark themselves state!) and obviously I’m not going to take the word of anyone who claims they can hear inaudible differences without substantial evidence, even less so if it’s just sighted audiophile testimonials and reviewer reports!

Have you actually listened to these two DACs? Your statement that these devices measure below the threshold of human hearing means that from a human perception threshold they are both “perfect”. I think that is bigshot’s point. In that regard, some careful listeners do not believe their audible performance is equally perfect. To me, some DACs that have low jitter and high SINAD sound “hard”, with pronounced sibilants, while other DACs with similar measurements do not. YMMV. You are apparently too busy working and teaching to notice.

 

[Whazzzup]

10k is cheap, lol. got to get a backo

 

[Whazzzup]

I think we understand their arguments better than they understand ours. Not that they’re correct, we know what they’re going to say because dozens of people who know as little as they do have been here in the past making the same wrong statements. They all blend into one for me. I can’t keep who is who straight. It’s like a whole world of Lou Costellos.

Napoleon started out great, finished badly. put some neo sporran on that sore spot regularly will help you get back at it. I'm not sure why i hear what i hear but I'm hearing it and loving my new amp, which doesn't sound like my old amp.

 

[71 dB]

I don't take them seriously and I don't want to spend $10K to find out what they mean. But it's interesting to observe the conflicting opinions on the subject of dacs, both sides being equally opinionated.

There will be conflicting opinions about these topics even after the cows have come back home. If the scientific/objective side of this debate won, audio business would be about selling plastic $19.99 DACs like bread at Walmart, because that's all you need for transparent sound. A lot of people want to make audio much more interesting, profitable and sexier than that. Hence this debate.

Your Elgar recommendation, on the other hand, I take seriously because I know you are knowledgeable about classical music.

Thanks, but please don't overestimate my expertise.

Finland is known for the quality of it's music education.

On higher level of education Finland does well. On lower levels Sweden is your country (explaining their insane success in pop music rivaling USA and UK). Mind you I learned almost nothing about music in school. I think the worst teachers I had were music teachers. I wasn't interested of music until high-school (Acid House of 1988 did it for me) and I was 25 when I got interested of classical music, but once I did, I went to town with it. For long I understand hardly anything about music theory, but since 2018 I have been studying it myself.

I think that's the reason Finland has fostered so many great composers.

Finns are well educated and that has its effect on how much Finn's are willing to support arts with their taxes. Jorma Panula mentored many conductors.

What recordings of the Oratorios would you recommend? My knowledge of Elgar is limited to the cello concerto and the Sea Pictures.

If you want to explore Elgar deeper, you may want to continue from the Cello Concerto and Sea Pictures to something easier before jumping to the massive Oratorios. The obvious next step is Enigma Variations, Op. 36. I can recommend this Opus Arte DVD with BBC Symphony Orchestra / Sir Andrew Davis.

If you some day feel you are ready for hardcore Elgar, the recordings I recommend for The Apostles and The Kingdom are the ones on EMI with Sir Adrian Boult. Those are old analog recordings from 1969 and 1974. There is some hiss. There isn't digital clarity, but there is warm analog sound and Boult's brilliant understanding of Elgar's music. However, you may want to try more accessible The Dream of Gerontius, Op. 38 before these much more challenging works, that can sound boring if you don't understand or appreciate Elgar's musical language really well.

Only a small percentage of people into classical music are fanatically into Elgar and for most he is just a British composer of jingoistic marches and a decent Cello Concerto. I happen to be an Elgarian and it was easy for me to fall in love with his music once I heard the Enigma Variations on radio (December 1996), but most people into classical music struggle with what they call "meandering" and "overblown" music. Just warning you before you decide to dedicate you life to this composer. That said, Cello Concerto and Sea Pictures don't give you the full picture (the Cello Concerto is imo overvalued compared to many other works). Enigma Variations and the Violin Concerto are accessible works giving a good picture of what Elgar's music is about. If those works make you electrified, you know you are an Elgarian. If not then maybe you are a fan of Mahler or Sibelius instead...

 

[knownothing2]

Huh? Jitter is defined as “timing error/deviation”, so if some DAC could not “maintain the pace, rhythm and timing” how could it be “not just jitter”? How could a failure to maintain the pace, rhythm and timing be due to something other than some sort of timing error/deviation?

Jitter in digital circuits is not the only place distortion that might affect “timing” as perceived by a listener might occur in a consumer DAC. Leaning on Benchmark again, I share this description of how analog circuits could also contribute, and conceivably how design choices and component selection could contribute to audible differences in perceived performance.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/ap...evils-of-digital-audio-and-how-to-defeat-them

kn

 

[71 dB]

I have a high end SACD player that has a button marked “pure sound”.

The remote for my Blu-ray player supporting SACD playback has "Pure Audio" button. It makes the picture on TV screen go black. According to the manual, video processing is turned off and potential interference between video and audio signals is avoided.

Do I hear a difference in sound? No. Any interference must be below the threshold of audibility as it should be.

I’ve tried and tried to hear a difference between it switched on or off and I can’t hear any difference at all. I leave it switched on all the time. Why? Because when it’s on a pretty purple LED lights up. Purple gives me the impression of specialness.

When blue LED is not special enough, go purple!

Purple LEDs are dual blue & red LEDs or blue LEDs with red phosphor.

 

[castleofargh]

Fair enough. I only use that phraseology as shorthand because it would make every sentence three times as long to add the "so long as it's being used for the purpose intended and is properly engineered and designed the same circuit type and ... (bla bla bla...). But perhaps I should invent a shorthand that covers those cases too.

But wouldn't you say his exceptions refer to times when there's a design or use flaw or user error? Are there times when he's admitted that properly functioning and installed...etc... DACs or amps or cables sound different? If so, I'd like to see it, and my apologies. I suspect not however, because of the regularly used phrase, " [X[ is a "solved problem". '

Very fair critique.

What would the units be? One can't have a meaningful measurement without units.

But of course, as you well state, that's a guess.


Exactly.

Totally agree. And the key word is "might".

Your word choice is excellent, imho, because it doesn't claim certainty about things which aren't provable. I'm fully willing to admit that I and perhaps many others who listen for a living would fail all kinds of tests one after the next. But I'm not willing to admit that there is no difference in the sound of DACs as some sort of scientific fact, because 1) I've heard differences (I just put the Hugo2 up against the M-Scaled Dave and in one piece, the snare drum didn't only sound different, it sound like it was a different physical instrument being used in the studio) and 2) because it's by definition not provable.

By and large, it's not the "practical-in-the-real-world" conclusion I disagree with (I fully admit nearly all DACs sound very, very good by the standards of the old tape or LP days. I also admit passing a test would likely be hard (though not impossible, as I just 10 minutes ago showed).

It's the certainty that they know the unknowable that I object to. And my aggravation is amplified when these same people who claim to know unknowable things make the most basic, ridiculous errors. And aggravated even more with the insults they hurl about how people who don't believe their absolutist claims are "audiophools" and so stupid they do anything marketers tell them. If they're going to talk like that about people who have the humility to accept the possibility that we don't know everything about DACs, amps and cables, then they rightfully deserve a few insults thrown back (though I carefully try to critique the argument, not the person. God knows I've made bad arguments in my lifetime too).

To me, the issue is that there's a huge gray area to be dealt with that treating it with such black-and-white certainty disrespects. For example, there's no one in my world of recording engineers who would say that (with exceptions for misdesign/-use) amps sound the same. Every studio of any caliber has multiple mic pres that sound by and large extremely good (quiet, very low distortion), but different so that, for example, singers can get the most effective sound. Another example: almost everyone who has the resources to do so would one track through Neve or API preamps, say, and mix through SSL, instead of the other way around. This is because the preamps sound very different. Another example, a perfectly designed and engineered unbalanced cable that is too long and goes too near a source or EM radiation like an amp or a high current will pick up noise. This exact problem is why balanced electronics were invented.

Anyway, that's the gray area to which I refer that defies the certainty that is regularly expressed here.

The good thing about units is that they can be arbitrary. What matters is only that they are well-defined. I would also intuitively say convenient to use, but then again, if the US still doesn't give up on weirdo units after getting all the opportunities and even some laws to help the change, I think it proves that convenience can be ignored on account of habit and stubbornness.
All that to say, bananas! I would pick bananas as the unit of soundstage.

About claims, my position is always the same. Some things are known and proved, so we stop demonstrating them each time we bring them up as being a fact. But other than that, a claim without access to the evidence making it factual is an empty claim. It's worth nothing. That's not a rational that applies only to what I don't like, it applies to any empty claim. Of course, if someone claims the same thing over and over again for years, there will come a time when nobody openly rejects the claim. Not because we agree with the still empty claim, but because we're tired. Again, stubbornness is a powerful force.

I couldn't find the papers I was looking for, but this one seems like a fine alternative on sound localization.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...Spatial_Perception_Auditory_Localization#pf23
And I attached the PDF, I think I did?, in case the link doesn't allow a download.

 

[bigshot]

Jitter in digital circuits is not the only place distortion that might affect “timing” as perceived by a listener might occur in a consumer DAC.

Jitter at the level it occurs in home audio equipment is almost always an order of magnitude below the threshold of audibility. I haven’t been able to find any component with audible levels of jitter.

Jitter is one of those solutions to problems that don’t exist.

Timing isn’t an issue in consumer DACs.