How do you differentiate between soundstage width and depth and accurate imaging?

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by Hazelhart, May 26, 2017.
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  1. gunwale
    my theory may be BS but the fact that better headphone actually give the listen better soundstage and imaging is true.

    headphone and iem have more science than just the transducer or driver. sealing is important and nowadays there are more drivers, different drivers positioning and etc.

    calling it BS is like telling everyone who reviewed headphone and iem BS.

    one of the highest fidelity speakers are like the electrostatics or hybrid like martin logan? or maybe some dolby atmos setup?

    i am no speaker experts so can you give me some example of some real hifi speakers?

    i think for every hifi speakers there should be an equivalent in a form of headphone.

    honestly do you guys even listen to both speakers and headphone/iem or you guys are just speaking theoritically?

    whatever i say is based on my own experience and not repeating what BS other people said.

    try using a cheap earbud and compare against a 200 dollars good sealing iem or a cheap 100 dollars headphone can tell me you hear no difference in imaging of the recording of any album.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  2. pinnahertz
    I didn't need to read them again, and it still doesn't matter. It's irrelevant.
    I've never claimed to be superhuman, or have superhuman hearing. I'm confident that the vast majority of people on earth could hear the difference between open back headphones and speakers.
    I'm confident that I'm confident. Perfect? I don't know, but I'm sure I could hit enough statistical trials to prove it's clearly audible. Of course, it's impossible to do that because all tests of that kind would be fully sighted and biased anyway. Dumb test.
    Done it. I don't need to do it again. But I'm not letting you experiment on me, that's for sure!
  3. pinnahertz
    Some phones have two speakers, but they're so close together they can be considered mono. Is that a new perspective we're going to argue about now?
    NEVER going to happen. We've had portable headphone listening since 1979, and in proliferation for 30 years. If that's not enough to stimulate the industry to release a special headphone mix, then it's never going to happen.
    If you hear a "soundstage" at all in any recording, it's been mixed for speakers.
    It doesn't matter, that doesn't make your point.
  4. gunwale
    well now you dont sound confident at all. what happen to slap in the face obvious?

    so isnt slap in the face obvious should even more than just a border line satistically proven?
  5. gunwale
    1979? now is 2017 and we have smyth. you are just ignoring technology or science is not technology?
  6. pinnahertz
    I'll cast my vote for BS.
    I'm calling your "theory" BS. Reviewers can express any opinion they like.
    I see no point in further straying off topic.
    But there can't be! The two are entirely dissimilar. There can't be an equivalent of dissimilar things.
    I listen to speakers, headphones, and IEMs every single day. But, I've also listened to speakers and headphones nearly every day for the last 55 years. I'll still bet that means I "don't know what I'm talking about".
    Your experience is far too limited, and you have excessively repeated the marketing hype from Smyth.
    I have not found a strong correlation between price and performance. I've listened to most of the prominent high-end headphones, and have been largely disappointed. There are a few good ones, but I've never found a set of headphones with performance that justifies a price over $1K. I have found some good ones below $1K. But again, this strays WAY off topic.
  7. pinnahertz
    You've just asked an engineer if he could achieve a perfect score in an A/B test. I'm being truthful and accurate (and confident) with my answer. But a perfect score isn't necessary to prove beyond doubt that something is true. And just because in 998 out of 1000 trials it's completely obvious doesn't mean there might not be 2 trials where there's a bit of ambiguity.

    Unfortunately for both of us the test can never be anything but 100% obvious because it cannot be done double-blind, so everyone will score a perfect score, even if no audio is every played. You can't listen to speakers with headphones on, and you can't listen to headphones when they are off your head.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  8. pinnahertz
    Yes, because the technology is impractical, and can only be applied to a tiny fraction of 1% of all headphone listeners. And is IRRELEVANT TO THIS DISCUSSION!!!!!!
  9. gregorio
    No, the precision of the sound is NOT different, precision includes imaging and depth, which is why headphones do NOT do well for monitoring!

    1. OK, that answers question #4, you obviously don't know what stereo imaging is! Do you have a cell phone a few feet wide or a head only an inch or so wide?
    2. You read the next paragraph, why do you think it says that?
    3. This is the sound science forum, NOT the forum of what you want to make up and/or believe!

    1. Your theory is BS and your conclusions based on your theory are therefore also BS!
    2. OK, that tells us in addition to not actually knowing what stereo imagining is or how it works, you also don't know what "fidelity" is, let alone high fidelity!
    3. You just don't seem to be getting it, THIS IS THE SOUND SCIENCE FORUM! You obviously don't know what stereo is, what fidelity is or even what science is! Science is NOT your personal experience and theories you've made up to explain your personal experience. In fact, the reason why science is needed and why it was invented in the first place is to separate actual fact from nonsense theories and superstitions invented by individuals to explain their personal experiences. Your approach to explaining what you experience and your resultant conclusions are the exact OPPOSITE of science and not only do you feel the need to publicly broadcast your nonsense conclusions but you've decided to do it in a forum actually called a science forum, how crazy is that?

    You can continue to broadcast your nonsense theories/facts/conclusions, insult those of us who are less ignorant, make yourself look like an ignorant fool and eventually get yourself banned from this forum OR, you can ask politely about stereo, imaging, sound stage and fidelity and learn some actual facts about what they are and how they work. Which of these two options do you choose?

  10. castleofargh Contributor
    is that a response to my post? really? I don't share your passion for random fishing and attrition by nonsense so I'll stop here. have fun explaining to gregorio and pinnahertz how soundstage works... I just hope you can at some point see the irony.
  11. gunwale
    i did not say 100%. i said it should not be just at border line like maybe a 45/55%.

    and experience engineer should be be at least 80%?

    the reason why i chose open back headphone is because you can actually hear sound both from the headphone and speaker without taking off the headphone. (at least mine can and probably most can)

    are you telling me that you need use your hands to reposition your ears or maybe close of side of your ears do the listening test?

    i am not engineer, not a sound or speaker experts so can you enlighten me on how do you actually listen to a speaker system?
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  12. gunwale
    the reply is to you.

    as the forum moderate you arrogantly said that all headphone and iem regardless of design does not improve imaging and soundstage or perhaps i misinterpreted you?

    my theory may be BS it could be headstage and etc.
  13. gunwale
    there are two types of science, theoritical and experimental science.

    my experiment is the later science. it may sound BS but unlikely to be totally wrong unless proven with like an equation otherwise.

    the phone example is kinda extreme so lets go on into bluetooth speakers. do bluetooth speakers have stereo imaging?

    i think it does but probably not as good as the state of the art stereo imaging in some fancy studio.

    can you explain to me the difference between a real calibrated studio and the smyth realizer in terms of sound stage and imaging?
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  14. pinnahertz
    You said exactly that right here:
    What would you call a "perfect score?" Something less than 100%? Now we're really off in the land of nonsense!
    No, you did not! IF you think you did, then cite the exact post.
    Where on earth did you get that????
    Yes, I thought that's why you picked open back headphones. They may be open back, but not acoustically transparent. There's a huge driver in there blocking direct sound to your ear from the outside. You cannot do that test correctly without removing the headphones because their presence causes a bias. You aren't really hearing the speakers without that bias. But even if you don't remove the headphones, and just include the bias, the difference will be clearly obvious to anyone.
    If you think I am, then quote me saying that. Otherwise stop making stuff up.
    You've already plainly established that. Not a headphone expert either. Nor an expert in any aspect of sound. We've all got that.
    Well, I park my hind end in my LP facing my speakers, I turn on the system, then play something, and listen. Occasionally I tap my feet. Sometimes I sip a drink, usually water, but on special occasions something stronger. But I don't drink tequila because apparently tequila makes me dance.
  15. pinnahertz
    No, they are both part of the same science.
    I see absolutely no evidence of the scientific method in anything you've posted, so I doubt that strongly.
    In actual science it is possible to prove or disprove something without an equation. An expert in experimental science would know that.
    Yeah. Probably not as good.
    Off topic, and irrelevant. Start a new thread, and we'll deal with it there.

    "Mother always said I'd die from incompetence. I finally know what she meant!" - Dominar Rygel XVI
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
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