How do you differentiate between soundstage width and depth and accurate imaging?

[Guidostrunk]

Ok..... so headphones are incapable of producing variables of depth? Or for that matter. Any other entity in the chain...... tubes, dacs,.......etc?

 

[castleofargh]

Given a good pair of headphone and proper recorsing, the sound stage and imagining doesnt change.

What changes is the prespective of the sound /listener (cant find a word for it)

Try watching this https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=#&ved=0ahUKEwjKs4XD6M3VAhXoKsAKHcFADIkQxa8BCCMwAA&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA

So in this example the soundstage is the stadium and the imagining is how correctly you tell the position of the contestant relative to the judge and audience at different level of volume.

At low volume you are the audience for away listening.

At middle volume you are the judge and the audience is behind you. (when the contastent is singing)

At higher volume you are the contestant (when the contestant is singing not when the judge is talking)

Basically a very good headphone will teleport you into the location of the recordoing.

ok so you see the headphone as the room and consider that its acoustic properties also manifest a soundstage specific to the headphone used. so you see soundstage as the objective impact of the mini room between the headphone and us or maybe as all of the headphone including the drivers? and you see imaging as our perception of the sound? do I get that right?
I don't know if everybody will agree with those definitions, but as long as we understand what the other is talking about, I personally don't mind. @bigshot often used headstage to talk about headphones, I do like it because it's specific enough not to be mistaken for actual soundstage and yet close enough to carry the general ideas that come with soundstage. but I have no idea if it's the proper term or if we need one ^_^.

now for the second part of your post, you're talking about subjective interpretation and as such you have no idea that we share it with you(I don't). as for teleporting us into the location of the recording, please check my previous post.

 

[gunwale]

i read your previous post and i do agree with you.

as for headphone, i believe that it actually does a better job replicating the sound of the recording.

i think audiophiles actually wants to hear the actual recording and not then sound produced by the current speaker setup.

for example at canjam, sennheiser did some recording of the real speaker with their new tool (i forgot the name) and then replay them on the headphone and they sound exactly the same.

how do you explain that?

if i were to reproduce the same sound in a speaker setup, i would have to add the size of the room, the material of the wall and position of the speaker.

 

[pinnahertz]

Given a good pair of headphone and proper recorsing, the sound stage and imagining doesnt change.

Doesn't change from what? What do you mean by "recorsing"?

What changes is the prespective of the sound /listener (cant find a word for it)

Try watching this https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=#&ved=0ahUKEwjKs4XD6M3VAhXoKsAKHcFADIkQxa8BCCMwAA&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA

So in this example the soundstage is the stadium and the imagining is how correctly you tell the position of the contestant relative to the judge and audience at different level of volume.

At low volume you are the audience for away listening.

At middle volume you are the judge and the audience is behind you. (when the contastent is singing)

At higher volume you are the contestant (when the contestant is singing not when the judge is talking)

Aside from the fact that the above is completely wrong, you just said, "Given a good pair of headphone and proper recorsing, the sound stage and imagining doesnt change."

And now you are saying it does change. How about picking one or the other?

This is absolutely wrong, complete nonsense.

Basically a very good headphone will teleport you into the location of the recordoing.

Again, total nonsense. The typical mix is created for listening on speakers in a room. Playing that on headphones...any headphones...presents a distorted perspective with imaging inside the head. Changing the volume doesn't change that. There is no teleportation.

The only approximation of reality attainable with headphones is when a true binaural recording is played, or a synthetic binaural signal is created with processing.

 

[ev13wt]

On the boom above it is the famous Decca "tree" microphone arrangement. It captured the action on the stage with perfect placement to recreate the soundstage in stereo.

I have never understood why people like this mic setup. No one from the audience sits up there, and with a bunch of violins play there is a lot mor high freq content being picked up making them sound too bright without a bunch of eqing?

Given a good pair of headphone and proper recorsing, the sound stage and imagining doesnt change.

What changes is the prespective of the sound /listener (cant find a word for it)

Try watching this https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=#&ved=0ahUKEwjKs4XD6M3VAhXoKsAKHcFADIkQxa8BCCMwAA&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA

So in this example the soundstage is the stadium and the imagining is how correctly you tell the position of the contestant relative to the judge and audience at different level of volume.

At low volume you are the audience for away listening.

At middle volume you are the judge and the audience is behind you. (when the contastent is singing)

At higher volume you are the contestant (when the contestant is singing not when the judge is talking)

Basically a very good headphone will teleport you into the location of the recordoing.

You are talking about two different things. One is the effect of volume on perceived distance, the other a misunderstanding of how recording works. The teleport part of your experience is you brain working in overtime.

Headphones do not have soundstage per se if playing stereo recordings. Not like speakers. But our brains are awesome - they can make the headphone experience as good or better than speakers can. Makes one wonder how bad stereo "actually" is.

 

[pinnahertz]

i read your previous post and i do agree with you.

as for headphone, i believe that it actually does a better job replicating the sound of the recording.

You should realize that recordings are not mixed on headphones. Listening to recordings on headphones is not replicating what the creators heard when they mixed the recording, nor is it replicating the original (or any other) acoustic event.

i think audiophiles actually wants to hear the actual recording and not then sound produced by the current speaker setup.

But there's no such thing as "hearing the actual recording"! The recording must be transduced through speakers or headphones. The recording was made listening to speakers in a room, so if you want to replicate that you're going to need speakers in a room. If you want to hear exactly what the creators heard you'll need the exact speakers in the exact locations in the exact room. If similar is close enough then all sorts of compromises can be made. But headphones and their sonic perspective is about as far from the original as it gets. That doesn't mean it's bad, but nobody heard that version originally.

for example at canjam, sennheiser did some recording of the real speaker with their new tool (i forgot the name) and then replay them on the headphone and they sound exactly the same.

how do you explain that?

Searching through the current Sennheiser web site I find no such product. That sounds like the Smyth Realizer (which was demonstrated at various Canjams). The purpose of the Realizer is to produce a believable replica in headphones of a multi-speaker surround sound experience. That's it's purpose. That's not the same as playing a stereo recording on headphones...not even close.

if i were to reproduce the same sound in a speaker setup, i would have to add the size of the room, the material of the wall and position of the speaker.

Yes, that's what it does.

 

[gregorio]

[1] For example movies have good sound stage ...
[2] At lower volume you will feel that you are sitting far away and at higher volume, you will hear that you are sitting at the front row. (you can hear sound coming from behind and not loud and cramp sound).

1. What do you mean by "good"?
2. No, there are a number of relative factors which define distance and volume is one only of them. If you feel further away just from lower volume, then there is a problem with your system or you have a problem with your hearing perception.

For me, the primary/physical depth /sound stage or the field / range of sound of speakers is the weakness of a speaker.

As the vast majority of commercial audio is made for speakers, what you essentially seem to be saying is that personally you do not like the higher realism/fidelity of speakers but prefer lower the fidelity of headphone? It's perfectly fine for you to have a preference for lower fidelity, many audiophiles do. The problem arises because many audiophiles cannot be honest about it and assume/state that their personal preference automatically means it better/higher fidelity, when in fact the exact opposite is just as likely.

The OP is under the misapprehension that there is a reference against which "soundstage" can be compared. There isn't, it's a manufactured/invented soundstage which doesn't exist in reality. The only reality is the fidelity of your reproduction compared to how it sounded in the studio after mixing and mastering.

G

 

[gunwale]

Doesn't change from what? What do you mean by "recorsing"?

Aside from the fact that the above is completely wrong, you just said, "Given a good pair of headphone and proper recorsing, the sound stage and imagining doesnt change."

And now you are saying it does change. How about picking one or the other?

This is absolutely wrong, complete nonsense.

Again, total nonsense. The typical mix is created for listening on speakers in a room. Playing that on headphones...any headphones...presents a distorted perspective with imaging inside the head. Changing the volume doesn't change that. There is no teleportation.

The only approximation of reality attainable with headphones is when a true binaural recording is played, or a synthetic binaural signal is created with processing.

sorry it was meant to be recording.

my example is based on recording of a concert hall or stadium.

when i say sound stage it is refering to the recorded sound stage which bigshot calls the secondary depth cues or something.

logically most people will refer that as "the" sound stage when they are listening to a headphone.

the recording sound stage through a headphone should remain constant because you cannot listen to something beyong the recording. same goes for imagining.

in real life we percept something softer when they are far away and louder when they are nearer. so when you increase the volume, you will feel like you have actually move closer to the source of sound. At zero distance, you should feel like you are actually on the stage.

i am refering to recordings that are done in like a concert hall and stadium. Most recording that are recorded in like a studio with synthetic instruments will not have a sound stage when you listen on a headphone but speakers will still project a different kind of sound stage depending on the position and the room.

 

[gunwale]

You should realize that recordings are not mixed on headphones. Listening to recordings on headphones is not replicating what the creators heard when they mixed the recording, nor is it replicating the original (or any other) acoustic event.
But there's no such thing as "hearing the actual recording"! The recording must be transduced through speakers or headphones. The recording was made listening to speakers in a room, so if you want to replicate that you're going to need speakers in a room. If you want to hear exactly what the creators heard you'll need the exact speakers in the exact locations in the exact room. If similar is close enough then all sorts of compromises can be made. But headphones and their sonic perspective is about as far from the original as it gets. That doesn't mean it's bad, but nobody heard that version originally.
Searching through the current Sennheiser web site I find no such product. That sounds like the Smyth Realizer (which was demonstrated at various Canjams). The purpose of the Realizer is to produce a believable replica in headphones of a multi-speaker surround sound experience. That's it's purpose. That's not the same as playing a stereo recording on headphones...not even close.

Yes, that's what it does.

so a replica sound from a headphone is a replica and the sound replicated by a speaker setup is not a replica?

i do agree that you cant produce a sound stage that doesnt exist on headphones but headphones can actually reproduced the recorded sound stage and i did not say that it does it better than a speaker is just that there are lesser variables to deal with on a headphone.

i also think that people actually mix using iem or headphones... i have seen like DJ, youtube videos or behind the scene vidoes that people are actually wearing headphone while mixing?

 

[gunwale]

1. What do you mean by "good"?
2. No, there are a number of relative factors which define distance and volume is one only of them. If you feel further away just from lower volume, then there is a problem with your system or you have a problem with your hearing perception.

As the vast majority of commercial audio is made for speakers, what you essentially seem to be saying is that personally you do not like the higher realism/fidelity of speakers but prefer lower the fidelity of headphone? It's perfectly fine for you to have a preference for lower fidelity, many audiophiles do. The problem arises because many audiophiles cannot be honest about it and assume/state that their personal preference automatically means it better/higher fidelity, when in fact the exact opposite is just as likely.

The OP is under the misapprehension that there is a reference against which "soundstage" can be compared. There isn't, it's a manufactured/invented soundstage which doesn't exist in reality. The only reality is the fidelity of your reproduction compared to how it sounded in the studio after mixing and mastering.

G

good means the sound stage exist. i think movies always try to replica the sound of the environment compared to like a song or comercial which doesnt really need to have a sound stage to make it feels real.

i never once said i do not like speakers... i also never once said that headphone is better than speaker. what i am saying is in speakers has other factors such as positioning, size and material of the room that will affect the projected sound stage while headphone can produce a sound stage that maybe virtual or a replica but it still exist.

 

[gunwale]

I honestly don't know what you're talking about, but I suspect it's a language thing. Do you know of any websites that talk about what you're trying to explain?

it is based on my own experience . one day i will probably write a thesis on it.

i fully agree with you on how a speaker produces sound stage. it is just that a headphone also produce some sort of sound stage. it is almost like comparing the american sushi with the japanese sushi.

 

[gregorio]

[1] good means the sound stage exist.
[2] i think movies always try to replica the sound of the environment compared to like a song or comercial which doesnt really need to have a sound stage to make it feels real.
[3] what i am saying is in speakers has other factors such as positioning, size and material of the room that will affect the projected sound stage while headphone can produce a sound stage that maybe virtual or a replica but it still exist.

1. That's a strange use of "good" because it means that pretty much all the commercial music ever released has a "good" soundstage. "Good" is generally used as a relative term, relative to say "bad", but in your use there cannot be a bad soundstage because all soundstages are "good".
2. No, typically movies do not try to replicate the sound of the environment, they try to manufacture an artificial environment. A song/music recording does need a soundstage to sound real, ALL sound does but again, it's virtually always a manufactured soundstage.
3. Yes, speakers do have other factors such as positioning, size and material of the room, HOWEVER, the music was created, mixed and mastered in rooms with positioned speakers, for playback in rooms with positioned speakers. FIDELITY therefore demands a room with positioned speakers. Of course, it's possible to have a room and speaker positioning so bad that the reproduced soundstage is very poor but even a fairly poor room is better than NO ROOM AT ALL, which is effectively what you get with headphones! That doesn't mean we can't enjoy headphone presentation, just that there's little point talking about fidelity of soundstage with headphones.

G

 

[gunwale]

1. That's a strange use of "good" because it means that pretty much all the commercial music ever released has a "good" soundstage. "Good" is generally used as a relative term, relative to say "bad", but in your use there cannot be a bad soundstage because all soundstages are "good".
2. No, typically movies do not try to replicate the sound of the environment, they try to manufacture an artificial environment. A song/music recording does need a soundstage to sound real, ALL sound does but again, it's virtually always a manufactured soundstage.
3. Yes, speakers do have other factors such as positioning, size and material of the room, HOWEVER, the music was created, mixed and mastered in rooms with positioned speakers, for playback in rooms with positioned speakers. FIDELITY therefore demands a room with positioned speakers. Of course, it's possible to have a room and speaker positioning so bad that the reproduced soundstage is very poor but even a fairly poor room is better than NO ROOM AT ALL, which is effectively what you get with headphones! That doesn't mean we can't enjoy headphone presentation, just that there's little point talking about fidelity of soundstage with headphones.

G

i think the sound stage in headphone is still at it's infancy.

it maybe virtual but nowadays i can see like there is this trend where companies like sennheiser trying to replicate the virtual surround sound better.

 

[castleofargh]

so a replica sound from a headphone is a replica and the sound replicated by a speaker setup is not a replica?

i do agree that you cant produce a sound stage that doesnt exist on headphones but headphones can actually reproduced the recorded sound stage and i did not say that it does it better than a speaker is just that there are lesser variables to deal with on a headphone.

i also think that people actually mix using iem or headphones... i have seen like DJ, youtube videos or behind the scene vidoes that people are actually wearing headphone while mixing?

the positon of the instrument is created pretty much from scratch by a sound engineer using mono tracks and making a stereo record that sounds the way he likes on speakers. no mater the process, chances are the final master was for speakers using speakers. of course some people use headphones to do everything, amateurs, pros too poor to rent a studio or leaving in mum's basement and forbiden to use speakers. and a few DJs. but 1/ what percentage of your library do you imagine that is? and 2/ it's hard to magine that the most realistic experience will come from those guys. it's not like you'll think "I'm in the studio with the band" when listening to electro ^_^. there will be position cues, but not much to do with how some real artists where placed on a scene.
so now for everything else, which is almost all albums ever created, you have an music made to be played on speakers:
left speaker reaches left and right ear with only the attenuation of your head and some small phase delay for your head size hearing something at 30°.
right speaker reaches left and right ear...

when you take that album and listen to it on headphones you get:
left driver reaches almost only left ear, and whatever reaches the other ear will be very massively attenuated. and as it comes from a different direction the phase delay is always bigger than it should and the impact of your head on the sound will be different anyway. so you're likely to hear nothing, but what little you may get to the other side will be wrong stereo.
right driver reaches almost only right ear...

so expecting the headphone experience to have anything to do with what happened in the studio or the original sound is an absolute delusion. that's what everybody is trying to tell you. it's not that we hate headphones or that headphones couldn't do great things. it's simply that music has been done a certain way for a certain purpose all those years. binaural recording is a special case and not exactly the most used method of recording albums(and even that has problems if you're really looking for the experience of sitting in front of the band). you're just looking to match your experience to your expectations, and we all did that or keep doing it. dishonest marketing about the sound like the artist intended keeps most people believing that's something they can and should achieve. but for almost all albums ever made, headphone stereo is wrong stereo. not saying my speakers in my room give me the sound of some fancy studio, but at least I use the right stereo mechanism. and my own body changing the sound isn't partially bypassed, which greatly help thinking the sound source is at a real place in the room.

 

[pinnahertz]

sorry it was meant to be recording.

my example is based on recording of a concert hall or stadium.

when i say sound stage it is refering to the recorded sound stage which bigshot calls the secondary depth cues or something.

logically most people will refer that as "the" sound stage when they are listening to a headphone.

The above makes my point: we haven't actually clearly defined "soundstage"! You can't even define it clearly.

the recording sound stage through a headphone should remain constant because you cannot listen to something beyong the recording. same goes for imagining.

You've already said it's both constant and changes. Which is it?

in real life we percept something softer when they are far away and louder when they are nearer. so when you increase the volume, you will feel like you have actually move closer to the source of sound. At zero distance, you should feel like you are actually on the stage.

Not at all. Volume itself is not a localization cue. Localization works by the ear/brain system analyzing many cues, such as ratio of direct vs reflected, spectral characteristics of direct vs reflected, timing of direct vs reflected, left vs right ear arrival time and azimuth-related spectral difference….it's far, far more complex than just a change in volume!

i am refering to recordings that are done in like a concert hall and stadium. Most recording that are recorded in like a studio with synthetic instruments will not have a sound stage when you listen on a headphone but speakers will still project a different kind of sound stage depending on the position and the room.

It doesn't matter where or how the recording was made. Localization cues can be present to some degree, even accidentally, in any recording, but that doesn't change the fact that the headphone spacial presentation is unique to headphones. There is only one type of recording that, by itself, presents even a vague representation of the spacial aspects of the original event, and that's binaural. And even that doesn't work consistently across a large listener base!

Your stated concepts of spacial localization are not even partially correct.