Guidostrunk
Headphoneus Supremus
Ok..... so headphones are incapable of producing variables of depth? Or for that matter. Any other entity in the chain...... tubes, dacs,.......etc?
ok so you see the headphone as the room and consider that its acoustic properties also manifest a soundstage specific to the headphone used. so you see soundstage as the objective impact of the mini room between the headphone and us or maybe as all of the headphone including the drivers? and you see imaging as our perception of the sound? do I get that right?Given a good pair of headphone and proper recorsing, the sound stage and imagining doesnt change.
What changes is the prespective of the sound /listener (cant find a word for it)
Try watching this https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=#&ved=0ahUKEwjKs4XD6M3VAhXoKsAKHcFADIkQxa8BCCMwAA&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA
So in this example the soundstage is the stadium and the imagining is how correctly you tell the position of the contestant relative to the judge and audience at different level of volume.
At low volume you are the audience for away listening.
At middle volume you are the judge and the audience is behind you. (when the contastent is singing)
At higher volume you are the contestant (when the contestant is singing not when the judge is talking)
Basically a very good headphone will teleport you into the location of the recordoing.
Doesn't change from what? What do you mean by "recorsing"?Given a good pair of headphone and proper recorsing, the sound stage and imagining doesnt change.
Aside from the fact that the above is completely wrong, you just said, "Given a good pair of headphone and proper recorsing, the sound stage and imagining doesnt change."What changes is the prespective of the sound /listener (cant find a word for it)
Try watching this https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=#&ved=0ahUKEwjKs4XD6M3VAhXoKsAKHcFADIkQxa8BCCMwAA&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA
So in this example the soundstage is the stadium and the imagining is how correctly you tell the position of the contestant relative to the judge and audience at different level of volume.
At low volume you are the audience for away listening.
At middle volume you are the judge and the audience is behind you. (when the contastent is singing)
At higher volume you are the contestant (when the contestant is singing not when the judge is talking)
Again, total nonsense. The typical mix is created for listening on speakers in a room. Playing that on headphones...any headphones...presents a distorted perspective with imaging inside the head. Changing the volume doesn't change that. There is no teleportation.Basically a very good headphone will teleport you into the location of the recordoing.
On the boom above it is the famous Decca "tree" microphone arrangement. It captured the action on the stage with perfect placement to recreate the soundstage in stereo.
Given a good pair of headphone and proper recorsing, the sound stage and imagining doesnt change.
What changes is the prespective of the sound /listener (cant find a word for it)
Try watching this https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=#&ved=0ahUKEwjKs4XD6M3VAhXoKsAKHcFADIkQxa8BCCMwAA&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA
So in this example the soundstage is the stadium and the imagining is how correctly you tell the position of the contestant relative to the judge and audience at different level of volume.
At low volume you are the audience for away listening.
At middle volume you are the judge and the audience is behind you. (when the contastent is singing)
At higher volume you are the contestant (when the contestant is singing not when the judge is talking)
Basically a very good headphone will teleport you into the location of the recordoing.
You should realize that recordings are not mixed on headphones. Listening to recordings on headphones is not replicating what the creators heard when they mixed the recording, nor is it replicating the original (or any other) acoustic event.i read your previous post and i do agree with you.
as for headphone, i believe that it actually does a better job replicating the sound of the recording.
But there's no such thing as "hearing the actual recording"! The recording must be transduced through speakers or headphones. The recording was made listening to speakers in a room, so if you want to replicate that you're going to need speakers in a room. If you want to hear exactly what the creators heard you'll need the exact speakers in the exact locations in the exact room. If similar is close enough then all sorts of compromises can be made. But headphones and their sonic perspective is about as far from the original as it gets. That doesn't mean it's bad, but nobody heard that version originally.i think audiophiles actually wants to hear the actual recording and not then sound produced by the current speaker setup.
Searching through the current Sennheiser web site I find no such product. That sounds like the Smyth Realizer (which was demonstrated at various Canjams). The purpose of the Realizer is to produce a believable replica in headphones of a multi-speaker surround sound experience. That's it's purpose. That's not the same as playing a stereo recording on headphones...not even close.for example at canjam, sennheiser did some recording of the real speaker with their new tool (i forgot the name) and then replay them on the headphone and they sound exactly the same.
how do you explain that?
Yes, that's what it does.if i were to reproduce the same sound in a speaker setup, i would have to add the size of the room, the material of the wall and position of the speaker.
[1] For example movies have good sound stage ...
[2] At lower volume you will feel that you are sitting far away and at higher volume, you will hear that you are sitting at the front row. (you can hear sound coming from behind and not loud and cramp sound).
For me, the primary/physical depth /sound stage or the field / range of sound of speakers is the weakness of a speaker.
Doesn't change from what? What do you mean by "recorsing"?
Aside from the fact that the above is completely wrong, you just said, "Given a good pair of headphone and proper recorsing, the sound stage and imagining doesnt change."
And now you are saying it does change. How about picking one or the other?
This is absolutely wrong, complete nonsense.
Again, total nonsense. The typical mix is created for listening on speakers in a room. Playing that on headphones...any headphones...presents a distorted perspective with imaging inside the head. Changing the volume doesn't change that. There is no teleportation.
The only approximation of reality attainable with headphones is when a true binaural recording is played, or a synthetic binaural signal is created with processing.
You should realize that recordings are not mixed on headphones. Listening to recordings on headphones is not replicating what the creators heard when they mixed the recording, nor is it replicating the original (or any other) acoustic event.
But there's no such thing as "hearing the actual recording"! The recording must be transduced through speakers or headphones. The recording was made listening to speakers in a room, so if you want to replicate that you're going to need speakers in a room. If you want to hear exactly what the creators heard you'll need the exact speakers in the exact locations in the exact room. If similar is close enough then all sorts of compromises can be made. But headphones and their sonic perspective is about as far from the original as it gets. That doesn't mean it's bad, but nobody heard that version originally.
Searching through the current Sennheiser web site I find no such product. That sounds like the Smyth Realizer (which was demonstrated at various Canjams). The purpose of the Realizer is to produce a believable replica in headphones of a multi-speaker surround sound experience. That's it's purpose. That's not the same as playing a stereo recording on headphones...not even close.
Yes, that's what it does.
1. What do you mean by "good"?
2. No, there are a number of relative factors which define distance and volume is one only of them. If you feel further away just from lower volume, then there is a problem with your system or you have a problem with your hearing perception.
As the vast majority of commercial audio is made for speakers, what you essentially seem to be saying is that personally you do not like the higher realism/fidelity of speakers but prefer lower the fidelity of headphone? It's perfectly fine for you to have a preference for lower fidelity, many audiophiles do. The problem arises because many audiophiles cannot be honest about it and assume/state that their personal preference automatically means it better/higher fidelity, when in fact the exact opposite is just as likely.
The OP is under the misapprehension that there is a reference against which "soundstage" can be compared. There isn't, it's a manufactured/invented soundstage which doesn't exist in reality. The only reality is the fidelity of your reproduction compared to how it sounded in the studio after mixing and mastering.
G
I honestly don't know what you're talking about, but I suspect it's a language thing. Do you know of any websites that talk about what you're trying to explain?
[1] good means the sound stage exist.
[2] i think movies always try to replica the sound of the environment compared to like a song or comercial which doesnt really need to have a sound stage to make it feels real.
[3] what i am saying is in speakers has other factors such as positioning, size and material of the room that will affect the projected sound stage while headphone can produce a sound stage that maybe virtual or a replica but it still exist.
1. That's a strange use of "good" because it means that pretty much all the commercial music ever released has a "good" soundstage. "Good" is generally used as a relative term, relative to say "bad", but in your use there cannot be a bad soundstage because all soundstages are "good".
2. No, typically movies do not try to replicate the sound of the environment, they try to manufacture an artificial environment. A song/music recording does need a soundstage to sound real, ALL sound does but again, it's virtually always a manufactured soundstage.
3. Yes, speakers do have other factors such as positioning, size and material of the room, HOWEVER, the music was created, mixed and mastered in rooms with positioned speakers, for playback in rooms with positioned speakers. FIDELITY therefore demands a room with positioned speakers. Of course, it's possible to have a room and speaker positioning so bad that the reproduced soundstage is very poor but even a fairly poor room is better than NO ROOM AT ALL, which is effectively what you get with headphones! That doesn't mean we can't enjoy headphone presentation, just that there's little point talking about fidelity of soundstage with headphones.
G
the positon of the instrument is created pretty much from scratch by a sound engineer using mono tracks and making a stereo record that sounds the way he likes on speakers. no mater the process, chances are the final master was for speakers using speakers. of course some people use headphones to do everything, amateurs, pros too poor to rent a studio or leaving in mum's basement and forbiden to use speakers. and a few DJs. but 1/ what percentage of your library do you imagine that is? and 2/ it's hard to magine that the most realistic experience will come from those guys. it's not like you'll think "I'm in the studio with the band" when listening to electro ^_^. there will be position cues, but not much to do with how some real artists where placed on a scene.so a replica sound from a headphone is a replica and the sound replicated by a speaker setup is not a replica?
i do agree that you cant produce a sound stage that doesnt exist on headphones but headphones can actually reproduced the recorded sound stage and i did not say that it does it better than a speaker is just that there are lesser variables to deal with on a headphone.
i also think that people actually mix using iem or headphones... i have seen like DJ, youtube videos or behind the scene vidoes that people are actually wearing headphone while mixing?
The above makes my point: we haven't actually clearly defined "soundstage"! You can't even define it clearly.sorry it was meant to be recording.
my example is based on recording of a concert hall or stadium.
when i say sound stage it is refering to the recorded sound stage which bigshot calls the secondary depth cues or something.
logically most people will refer that as "the" sound stage when they are listening to a headphone.
You've already said it's both constant and changes. Which is it?the recording sound stage through a headphone should remain constant because you cannot listen to something beyong the recording. same goes for imagining.
Not at all. Volume itself is not a localization cue. Localization works by the ear/brain system analyzing many cues, such as ratio of direct vs reflected, spectral characteristics of direct vs reflected, timing of direct vs reflected, left vs right ear arrival time and azimuth-related spectral difference….it's far, far more complex than just a change in volume!in real life we percept something softer when they are far away and louder when they are nearer. so when you increase the volume, you will feel like you have actually move closer to the source of sound. At zero distance, you should feel like you are actually on the stage.
It doesn't matter where or how the recording was made. Localization cues can be present to some degree, even accidentally, in any recording, but that doesn't change the fact that the headphone spacial presentation is unique to headphones. There is only one type of recording that, by itself, presents even a vague representation of the spacial aspects of the original event, and that's binaural. And even that doesn't work consistently across a large listener base!i am refering to recordings that are done in like a concert hall and stadium. Most recording that are recorded in like a studio with synthetic instruments will not have a sound stage when you listen on a headphone but speakers will still project a different kind of sound stage depending on the position and the room.