How do I get round a hi-fi amplifier's "poor" headphones output?

[pp312]

Er, I think he was being sarcastic.

 

[nicholars]

   
This was actually discussed in an earlier thread on this subject and it was pointed out by one poster, correctly I think, that large speaker amp manufacturers have much better scale of economy than small dedicated HP amp manufacturers. In short, Marantz can make a 100W integrated just as cheaply as your average dedicated amp manufacturer can make a 5W HP amp, with just as good components.

 
A lot of large speaker amp manufacturers also make dedicated headphone amp / dacs though.

 

[pp312]

Really? Perhaps you could reel off a list of them for us.
 
Don't use up all the bandwidth though. 

 

[nicholars]

  Really? Perhaps you could reel off a list of them for us.
 
Don't use up all the bandwidth though. 

 
NAD
NAIM
Denon
Arcam
Onkyo
Marantz
cambridge audio
Rega
cyrus
Teac
Bryson
oppo
pioneer
Sony
Leema
audiolab
etc.
 
All have dedicated headphone amps / dacs... Some are op amp, some are discreet amps.
 
So yes as I was saying pretty much every major brand available in the UK has them...

 

[nicholars]

I was testing my integrated amp vs headphone amp again last night... With the SRH 1540 they sound better from the headphone amp, with the Denon D2000 the mid and treble is better from the headphone amp but out of the integrated using the tone controls, I can get a lot more bass from the D2000.

 

[nicholars]

In conclusion to my little experiment the integrated is nowhere near as good, tone controls sound bad... and headphone amp + EQ is the best by a long way.... Big difference in sound quality..

 

[pp312]

 

  Really? Perhaps you could reel off a list of them for us.
 
Don't use up all the bandwidth though. 

 
NAD
NAIM
Denon
Arcam
Onkyo
Marantz
cambridge audio
Rega
cyrus
Teac
Bryson
oppo
pioneer
Sony
Leema
audiolab
etc.
 
All have dedicated headphone amps / dacs... Some are op amp, some are discreet amps.
 
So yes as I was saying pretty much every major brand available in the UK has them...

 
 
Thanks for the heads up on these products, as I confess I'd never heard of 95% of them (nor cared much really). I can well guess why they're being produced, however, especially in the case of majors like Marantz, and it's not because they think the headphone outs on their integrateds and receivers are crap. It's because they see a market, and the market is...well, you actually,,,that is, those who believe unless something is dedicated to a purpose from conception it can't adequately fulfill that purpose. Besides, there's lots of money to be made from a small product with few components costing lots of money than a big one with heaps of components costing the same. As I say, this subject of integrated vs. dedicated has come up many times and there's never any sort of meeting ground; indeed a couple of times it's even become acrimonious, which is odd for such an innocent subject. Makes me wonder what people have to lose by believing an integrated can sound as good as a dedicated, and why they fight so hard to reject the possibility.  
 
From my end the subject ends here, but fear not, it'll be back bigger and better than ever. It's inevitable.

 

[Sonic Defender]

   
 
Thanks for the heads up on these products, as I confess I'd never heard of 95% of them (nor cared much really). I can well guess why they're being produced, however, especially in the case of majors like Marantz, and it's not because they think the headphone outs on their integrateds and receivers are crap. It's because they see a market, and the market is...well, you actually,,,that is, those who believe unless something is dedicated to a purpose from conception it can't adequately fulfill that purpose. Besides, there's lots of money to be made from a small product with few components costing lots of money than a big one with heaps of components costing the same. As I say, this subject of integrated vs. dedicated has come up many times and there's never any sort of meeting ground; indeed a couple of times it's even become acrimonious, which is odd for such an innocent subject. Makes me wonder what people have to lose by believing an integrated can sound as good as a dedicated, and why they fight so hard to reject the possibility.  
 
From my end the subject ends here, but fear not, it'll be back bigger and better than ever. It's inevitable.

I think it cuts both ways. There is no technical reason a dedicated headphone amp couldn't sound better than the headphone jack of an integrated. Or they could sound equally good/bad. I think, and I am sure you would agree every single implementation needs to be evaluated separately. I am willing to bet there will be little difference in general (meaning audible and reliably so), but I don't think we can just assume this is always true. I am fairly sure a lovely Conrad Johnson sounds better than a Radio Shack amp. Even if we operate them both in a comfortable range with loads that are comparable and sound pressure matched, I still think it is possible that the circuit design and components can make a difference. Transitively if any of that is true, it is possible that circuit designs could yield audible differences (maybe a Cavaili Liquid Fire amp is very good). I know I'm stretching things, but hopefully not so much so as to be nonsensical.
 
I guess this just all circles back to the whole O2 design principles espoused by the designer that simply good enough will always sound as good as an over-designed/spec'd piece of gear and once the basic parameters of delivering a signal well are met no appreciable difference is logical to predict.
 
As an aside, for somebody who seems as knowledgeable as you I find it hard to believe you never heard of 95% of  the companies mentioned. You would have to be living in isolation somewhere in Papau New Guinea, or be so wealthy that you never saw how the other half lived!

 

[Mr Rick]

 
I think it cuts both ways. There is no technical reason a dedicated headphone amp couldn't sound better than the headphone jack of an integrated. Or they could sound equally good/bad. I think, and I am sure you would agree every single implementation needs to be evaluated separately. I am willing to bet there will be little difference in general (meaning audible and reliably so), but I don't think we can just assume this is true. I am fairly sure a lovely Conrad Johnson sounds better than a Radio Shack amp. Even if we operate them both in a comfortable range with loads that are comparable and sound pressure matched, I still think it is possible that the circuit design and components can make a difference. Transitively if any of that is true, it is possible that circuit designs could yield audible differences (maybe a Cavaili Liquid Fire amp is very good). I know I'm stretching things, but hopefully not so much so as to be nonsensical..

I'm sorry, but many blind tests have found you in error. Two properly designed amps can not be differentiated in blind testing.

 

[Sonic Defender]

  I'm sorry, but many blind tests have found you in error. Two properly designed amps can not be differentiated in blind testing.

You don't have to be sorry, I do not presume to be always correct (although I prefer to be). I would appreciate some links mind you if at all possible. May I ask what gear you own? As well, can you provide me a concrete example of two pieces of gear that are far apart in price, and yet meet the criteria of properly designed?

 

[pp312]

  As an aside, for somebody who seems as knowledgeable as you I find it hard to believe you never heard of 95% of  the companies mentioned. You would have to be living in isolation somewhere in Papau New Guinea, or be so wealthy that you never saw how the other half lived!

 
No, I didn't mean I'd never heard of 95% of the companies mentioned, but that I was unaware that those companies produced dedicated HP amps. They seem to have been keeping their lights under a bushel.
 
I'm glad you think I seem knowledgeable. It means I've been successful yet again in hiding my ignorance.

 

[Sonic Defender]

   
No, I didn't meant I'd never heard of 95% of the companies mentioned, but that I was unaware that those companies produced dedicated HP amps. They seem to have been keeping their lights under a bushel.
 
I'm glad you think I seem knowledgeable. It means I've been successful yet again in hiding my ignorance.

Try as you might, I will never be convinced you are not a very knowledgeable person.

 

[pp312]

Flattery will get you everywhere. 

 

[nicholars]

   
 
Thanks for the heads up on these products, as I confess I'd never heard of 95% of them (nor cared much really). I can well guess why they're being produced, however, especially in the case of majors like Marantz, and it's not because they think the headphone outs on their integrateds and receivers are crap. It's because they see a market, and the market is...well, you actually,,,that is, those who believe unless something is dedicated to a purpose from conception it can't adequately fulfill that purpose. Besides, there's lots of money to be made from a small product with few components costing lots of money than a big one with heaps of components costing the same. As I say, this subject of integrated vs. dedicated has come up many times and there's never any sort of meeting ground; indeed a couple of times it's even become acrimonious, which is odd for such an innocent subject. Makes me wonder what people have to lose by believing an integrated can sound as good as a dedicated, and why they fight so hard to reject the possibility.  
 
From my end the subject ends here, but fear not, it'll be back bigger and better than ever. It's inevitable.

 
I have tested various integrated amps and headphone amps / dacs and chosen what I think sounds the best... Obviously they have seen a market etc. But that does not mean that the headphone amp / dac products do not sound better than integrated. Integrated amps are ok for headphones but it is possible to get better sound quality from headphone amp / dac... (I am sure there are some integrated amps with amazing headphone jacks that are better than cheap headphone amps) I feel like I am repeating myself a lot, but maybe try some good headphone amp / dacs from people like NAD etc. and you might agree with me then that they do sound better than integrated, especially with lower impedance headphones which 90% of headphones are these days. I would prefer if my integrated amp sounded better than my headphone amp because I could save some money... But it doesn't, I have listened to marantz headphone jack as well with HD650 and I was not that impressed... There was no punchy bass and a bit bright.

 

[nicholars]

  I'm sorry, but many blind tests have found you in error. Two properly designed amps can not be differentiated in blind testing.

 
Most amps seem to have a slightly different sound to them... I am pretty sure I am not totally mad and there is definitely a difference.