How do I get round a hi-fi amplifier's "poor" headphones output?
Feb 13, 2015 at 8:35 AM Post #16 of 111
Yes well you are using a very limited scenario....
 
A good quality amp which is stepped down to the headphone jack using high impedance headphones.... 90% of headphones are not 300-600ohm though...
 
I have used various headphones from 5 different integrated amps and about 3 headphone amps and various dacs.... There are differences in sound definitely.. From a NAD 326Bee with HD650 they did sound decent as high impedance like you said... With most headphones which 90% of are 20-50ohm it did not sound good with some of them... But then a good dac / amp sounds better than the NAD 326bee even with high impedance headphones... but yes with an amp with a good headphone jack and high impedance headphones it can sound good. But dacs and headphone amps do sound different I don't really care what you or anyone else says loads of people agree there are obvious differences as well.... Maybe everyone is imagining it... But its funny how everyone "imagines" the same differences between amps / dacs... Maybe you just don't have very good hearing or know what to listen for.
 
Also I am pretty sure the "almost all amps and receivers are stepped down from the main amp" is not actually true, especially for receivers" I used to be sceptical as well until I actually tested various dac / amps / headphones.
 
Feb 13, 2015 at 7:03 PM Post #18 of 111
It's obvious you've made up your mind and are not about to be moved. That's fine if you've actually done your homework and are not simply parroting a typical belief because you've spent a lot of money and there's safety in numbers. As far as facts go, the info about how HP jacks are powered comes from the manufacturers themselves and is confirmed by my own observations. As for "90% of headphones are not 300-600ohm", that's certainly an arguable statement. In any case as you well know we're not talking 300 to 600 ohm, we're talking more like 150 to 600ohm, which includes many popular headphones.
 
"But dacs and headphone amps do sound different I don't really care what you or anyone else says". I definitely didn't say they don't sound different, either from each other or integrated amps, but different is not necessarily better. I did say that having listened to probably a dozen different dedicated amps and literally hundreds of integrateds and receivers, I've been unable to percieive an appreciable improvement from the dedicateds even with low impedance phones. I don't say that the very best dedicated amps aren't better than your typical integrated, only that for most people the difference is not worth the extra expense and inconvenience, and that anyone who rejects integrateds and receivers simply because they're not dedicated is being foolish.
 
"Well yes but the little dot mkv is quite a cheap amp so anything "up to" that would be a cheap amp".  I don't know your financial situation but mine is fairly tight and I don't regard an LD MkV as "cheap". In any case, as experienced audiophiles know, performance is not inextricably linked to price. If a designer can't get top notch performance from a several hundred dollar amp design packed with components he ought to go back to the drawing board.    
 
Feb 13, 2015 at 7:15 PM Post #19 of 111
Ok but I am just saying in my personal experience testing dedicated amps / dacs / soundcards and speaker amps... The speaker amp can sound decent with high impedance headphones, but the biggest upgrade I have had to sound quality is the NAD D1050 dac / amp with the SRH 1540 headphones... Blows away any speaker amp or other dac / amp I have used, anyway use what you want but the best sound I have heard from headphones has always been from a headphone amp whereas a speaker amp is decent with some headphones but a good dedicated amp / dac is a pretty large upgrade. Get a D1050 on loan from a HIFI shop and try it if you don't believe me, excellent dac / amp.
 
Feb 14, 2015 at 7:19 AM Post #20 of 111
Sounds like you're comparing a quite expensive ($600 in Oz) dac/amp with a typical integrated. That's hardly scientific. The dac is likely to make as much difference to the sound as the amp.
 
One of the points I failed to make about integrateds/receivers is the convenience. Remote volume control (often in 1db increments), tone controls, multiple inputs...these things are not to be sneezed at. Tone controls are particularly useful, despite all the audiophile snobbery surrounding them; used subtley they can often make the difference between living happily with a headphone for years or selling it after a week. And if you also have speakers you're going to need a speaker amp anyway.
 
Feb 14, 2015 at 7:38 AM Post #21 of 111
  Sounds like you're comparing a quite expensive ($600 in Oz) dac/amp with a typical integrated. That's hardly scientific. The dac is likely to make as much difference to the sound as the amp.
 
One of the points I failed to make about integrateds/receivers is the convenience. Remote volume control (often in 1db increments), tone controls, multiple inputs...these things are not to be sneezed at. Tone controls are particularly useful, despite all the audiophile snobbery surrounding them; used subtley they can often make the difference between living happily with a headphone for years or selling it after a week. And if you also have speakers you're going to need a speaker amp anyway.

 
I used to use them but I noticed they sound worse compared to source direct mode. They can be useful if you are watching freeview TV as the quality is so **** anyway (96kbps) can help to smooth it out, but with a good dac tone controls not necessary. If you want to change the frequency response of the headphones or any audio coming from a PC, a good EQ works better than tone controls. The NAD D1050 has all of those convenience things you mentioned (inputs, easy controls, IR receiver for remote) and is £400 (£350 in sales) in the UK. My integrated amp is a NAD 326Bee which RRP is £350 and runs from the RCA out of the DAC so its a fair comparison.
 
Best solution is a dac with a good integrated headphone amp and a speaker amp connected to the dac... That way you have a good dac, a dedicated headphone amp and a speaker amp connected to a good dac. Or you could get a dac and a separate headphone amp but that is less convenient if you need a speaker amp connected to the dac as well.
 
Feb 14, 2015 at 8:27 PM Post #22 of 111
I'm glad you're pleased with your NAD. I should probably list my equipment to make proper economic comparisons. I'm using a Beyer DT880 Pro ($195) out of a Denon DRA295 integrated ($40 off Ebay--about 12 years old). Best source is a Yamaha CD-S700 (Ebay--$175). With a good CD this system is capable of frequent OMG moments (I listen primarily to classical). My comparison is a $40,000 speaker based system owned by a friend. I must say I'm not crestfallen when I return to my humble DT880. It's more a different than a worse sound.
 
You mention the NAD 326BEE. Oddly, I've tried all the recent NADs (320Bee, 325Bee, 326Bee) and didn't care for any of them, either with the Beyer or Senn HD650. I felt they lacked separation and air. Not taking a shot here--there may have been a mismatch or just my ears. The NADs have always been extremely popular. Another amp I didn't care for was the Marantz PM6004. Too incisive, not musical enough. The differences are interesting, and often quite unrelated to price.
 
As for EQ, yes, it's preferable, but for minor adjustments good tone controls (particularly those that only affect the extremes) are often sufficient. I find -2db nicely files the teeth off the DT880 on aggressive recordings; I don't feel the need of EQ. Of course, the 880 only needs extreme treble adjustment. If I had, say, a K702 and wanted to get at that 2khz peak, I'd definitely need EQ.
 
Unfortunately your last paragraph confused me a little, so I have to take it on trust. Whatever works, I say.
 
Oh, and apologies to the OP. We seem to have entirely forgotten you. 
tongue.gif

 
Feb 14, 2015 at 8:38 PM Post #23 of 111
  I'm glad you're pleased with your NAD. I should probably list my equipment to make proper economic comparisons. I'm using a Beyer DT880 Pro ($195) out of a Denon DRA295 integrated ($40 off Ebay--about 12 years old). Best source is a Yamaha CD-S700 (Ebay--$175). With a good CD this system is capable of frequent OMG moments (I listen primarily to classical). My comparison is a $40,000 speaker based system owned by a friend. I must say I'm not crestfallen when I return to my humble DT880. It's more a different than a worse sound.
 
You mention the NAD 326BEE. Oddly, I've tried all the recent NADs (320Bee, 325Bee, 326Bee) and didn't care for any of them, either with the Beyer or Senn HD650. I felt they lacked separation and air. Not taking a shot here--there may have been a mismatch or just my ears. The NADs have always been extremely popular. Another amp I didn't care for was the Marantz PM6004. Too incisive, not musical enough. The differences are interesting, and often quite unrelated to price.
 
As for EQ, yes, it's preferable, but for minor adjustments good tone controls (particularly those that only affect the extremes) are often sufficient. I find -2db nicely files the teeth off the DT880 on aggressive recordings; I don't feel the need of EQ. Of course, the 880 only needs extreme treble adjustment. If I had, say, a K702 and wanted to get at that 2khz peak, I'd definitely need EQ.
 
Unfortunately your last paragraph confused me a little, so I have to take it on trust. Whatever works, I say.
 
Oh, and apologies to the OP. We seem to have entirely forgotten you. 
tongue.gif

 
I think NAD products are great (as you can see in my sig lol) I tried the Marantz you mentioned when I was looking for a new amp and I agree it was not that good, treble was too much on it, bass was worse than the NAD and it sounded a bit dull / not musical like you said. You could try disabling the tone controls and using a software EQ (foobar 31 band or ElectriQ) instead because as far as I know it should have less of a negative effect on sound quality compared to physical tone controls and is also more accurate, tone controls seem to muffle the sound a bit on the amps I have tried and will only reduce the whole treble above whatever frequency where with EQ you can reduce specific frequency.
 
Feb 14, 2015 at 8:51 PM Post #24 of 111
@Op, consider having speaker tap cables made and avoid unnecessary resistors in the signal path such as solutions like the Canopener offer. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line so go speaker terminals to headphone. It can be sublime and my 180watt NAD M3 isn't at all harming my HE-560s, quite the opposite, they love each other.
 
Feb 15, 2015 at 8:25 AM Post #25 of 111
 
What should one expect to pay for a Vinyl Flat Can Opener in the US?


About $80.00 plus tax and shipping.
 
Regarding the comment about unneccesary resistors - when properly implemented, the resistance has very little effect on sound.  Speaker outs straight to headphones can be very dangerous, one misstep and most headphones are toast.  The design of the can-opener is similar to the headphone out design of many older amp/integrated/receivers.  Most of the newer amp/integrated/receivers use op-amp circuitry.  Not saying that is necessarily bad but of the few I've heard - I haven't been impressed.  When compared to the headphone out on some of my older equipment the can-opener sounds better (to me), on the rest, it sounds the same.
 
That being said - sound is subjective.  One man's trash is another man's treasure.  An excellent example is the AKG K712 - many rave about it, it generally gets great reviews.  All I got was a headache and had to pay freight to return them.  LOL!!!  Another example is the Beyerdynamic T90 - many call it bright and sibilant, I think it is sublime and detailed.
 
Feb 15, 2015 at 8:58 AM Post #26 of 111
 
About $80.00 plus tax and shipping.
 
Regarding the comment about unneccesary resistors - when properly implemented, the resistance has very little effect on sound.  Speaker outs straight to headphones can be very dangerous, one misstep and most headphones are toast.  The design of the can-opener is similar to the headphone out design of many older amp/integrated/receivers.  Most of the newer amp/integrated/receivers use op-amp circuitry.  Not saying that is necessarily bad but of the few I've heard - I haven't been impressed.  When compared to the headphone out on some of my older equipment the can-opener sounds better (to me), on the rest, it sounds the same.
 
That being said - sound is subjective.  One man's trash is another man's treasure.  An excellent example is the AKG K712 - many rave about it, it generally gets great reviews.  All I got was a headache and had to pay freight to return them.  LOL!!!  Another example is the Beyerdynamic T90 - many call it bright and sibilant, I think it is sublime and detailed.


Dangerous if you are unaware, but yes in theory if you were quite silly you could blow up your headphones. Perhaps if you somehow were listening at sound levels capable of blowing your headphones (doubtful if you could) then left the headphones plugged in and for some reason on the next go round sent a signal to the headphones without adjusting the volume down .... I think it would be extremely difficult to blow your headphones without quite the run of bad luck and mistakes. There are many quite experienced members here that also use speaker terminal outs to drive headphones.
 
In my case I have the headphone tap running from my speaker B circuitry. In order to use my headphones I first have to switch to speaker B (I always conclude my listening session by switching the amp back to speaker A), I then need to connect my headphones to the XLR connector that is coming from the speaker terminals. When done I also simply disconnect at the connector again easy as can be. I think when one is engaged in such a deliberate activity as headphone use it is very easy to be focused on the small amount of process required.
 
And as I said before, how loud would you have to crank the volume to have it in overdrive territory? Certainly well louder than you could listen to, but yes, it does require a little common sense and vigilance to avoid blowing up your headphones. I am also not sure how little impact a bunch of resistors has, even when well implemented. By the time I have spent $1000 on headphones and another $800 on a DAC, invested in lossless music, built a music server, even the notion of a small sonic degradation that can be avoided makes sense for me. I realize that is just my opinion and no one else need feel that way.
 
In my case I had a very nice integrated amplifier sitting there with an unused speaker section, I had demanding to drive headphones, and I had a great headphone amp. So I wanted to have less boxes, plus I wanted to use my remote control on the integrated. Not to mention, the stock cable that came with my HE 560 was so short I had to push a big chair right in front of my system to use it so I needed a custom cable regardless so why not kill two birds with one stone so to speak? I sold my lovely Yulong A18 for almost as much as the cable ended up costing, and man is it an amazing cable. Trevor at Norne Audio really makes fantastic cables and his service was excellent.
 
So if you have a decent speaker rig at home, bloody good chance that for $300 - $400 you can get a nice long two section cable made and use your speaker rig. The other benefit is that the 8 foot section of my cable that comes from the headphones terminates in a nice 4 pin XLR that can be used with any balanced output so if I change my mind, or want to add a headamp I still can. Win win if you ask me.
 
Feb 15, 2015 at 10:23 AM Post #27 of 111
I'll chime in and give my two cents. In general, the myth that integrated amps have bad sounding headphone outputs is pure ********, sorry, but that is my verdict after trying out a lot of them. And people who say so in most cases have no experience and haven't actually tried out the amps for themselves. The only issue that such headphone outputs have is high output impedance, so using low impedance headphones, especially if they don't have flat impedance curves, may change sound slightly. We're talking about 1-2 db changes in frequency response, usually in the bass region, and slight lack of tightness, which is NOT always bad, as it can make some bass light headphones actually sound better, and a lot of professional low impedance headphones (that are used as listening headphones too) are tuned to work with higher impedance outputs on studio mixers, consoles and interfaces.  But, if you use high impedance headphones, 250 Ohm Beyers and above, or 300 Ohm Sennheisers, you don't have to worry at all. Some low impedance cans such as AKG's don't give a damn about the output impedance either, since they don't seem to change much at all.  All in all, yes, they're not ideal for low impedance headphones, but neither are OTL headphone amps, and you don't see people saying that all OTL headphone amps sound bad because they don't sound perfect with low impedance cans.
 
Anyway...I had these very same doubts until a about 2 years ago, when I actually went out to several hi-fi shops with my headphones (DT880 600 ohm at the time) and tested about 30 different integrated amplifiers and receivers ranging from entry level to high end. That was 2 years ago, and even though I have written notes somewhere, I won't go into detail about how each of the amps sounded. I'll just talk in general.  None of them, I repeat, NONE of them, had bad headphone outputs. None of them had any noise with DT880, none of them lacked power (could hardly turn volume past 50% on most of them),  none of them had problems with channel balance, none of them had problems with keeping the frequency response of the DT880's flat and keeping all of their characteristic sound qualities.  They sounded different, integrated amplifiers by rule sounding better than receivers, but in general, all of them made the DT880's sound exactly as DT880's sound, with slight variations in quality when going from entry level NAD's or CA's to stuff like Naim.
 
I did a direct comparison at the time, it was between an Onkyo A-5VL integrated amplifier with an integrated dual mono 24/192 Burr Brown DAC (one for each channel), which I chose to buy because I needed an all-in-one amp for my second speaker setup, that amp was a 450€ integrated amplifier back then, and I compared it directly to Asus Essence One, Cambridge Audio Dacmagic Plus, Teac UD-H01, Nuforce HDP, P Little Dot MKV and Musical Fidelity V-CAN2, all fed by the same Marantz SACD player, think it was a 8003 or 8004, don't hold my word for it.  All of those DAC/headamps were priced at or above the price of the Onkyo amplifier, MF V-CAN was about 300€ as a standalone little headamp.  I used only DT880's to compare directly, so keep that in mind.
 
In which ways was Onkyo better than all those? 
 
1) Considerably more power, heaps of power and headroom. While each of those dedicated head amps struggled to make the DT880's sing even when turned to full volume, and some of them clearly distorted, Onkyo played at the same volume, with unquestionable control and authority at under 30% at the volume pot. 
 
2) Onkyo had no channel imbalance whatsoever at any volume knob position, all of the above had those problems except the Dac Magic which has a digital volume pot, but as a device it sounded so bad it doesn't really help it. 
 
3) Onkyo had no hiss present at any volume,  Dac Magic, MF, LD and Nuforce had.
 
4) Onkyo had on-board EQ controls that actually work, and don't just make the bass bloated and muddy, or highs sharp and piercing. I usually don't care about EQ, but this one actually works, and works damn well, since it does exactly what you want it to, without messing with the rest of the sound in any audible way.
 
5) Onkyo had more authority in the sound than any of them. I can explain that most easily if I say that headphones sounded more dynamic, lively and sound had more authority and PRAT. Simply put, any of the above sounded flat and boring, with an exception of Asus Essence One and LD Mk5.
 
6) I distinctly remember that Onkyo had a more spacious sounding soundstage, and projected the sound more forward.
 
7) In terms of resolution, detail, clarity, extension in both ways, tonal qualities, and all other audiophile terms, Onkyo was as good or better, with an exception of Asus Essence One, which did sound a bit more detailed and smoother, but had limited power, at least that's what my notes say.
 
Long story short, I walked out of that store buying the Onkyo, instead of a integrated amp + DAC/headamp as I planned before entering, since the Onkyo did all three tasks on it's own better than any of the others.  And it wasn't even the best sounding integrated amp that I've tested, not by a long shot.
 
 
Now, I have several receivers and integrated amps, as well as several DAC's and headphone amps, and a lot of more headphones than I had back then.  However..... T1's, HD650's, DT880's. DT990's, DT770's still sound good enough to me out of any of those.  T1's plugged into the Onkyo amp sound 90% as good, with no obvious faults, and isolated on it's own without A-B testing, just as fun and engaging as when plugged into a Musical Fidelity M1HPAP (which costs twice as much as the Onkyo in my country) and a M1DAC (almost as pricy as the amp).  On top of that, the best I've ever heard out of T1's was not out of OTL's, or higher end headphone amps than what I have, it was out of a high end Naim integrated amplifier. 
 
Feb 15, 2015 at 10:36 AM Post #28 of 111
@derbigpr the better Naim typically have a dedicated headamp section as opposed to simply stacking resistors in the path so perhaps that what you heard and why you felt it was so favourable? I think the perceived sound quality differences from your regular headphone out section should rightfully be small, but present if it is just a bunch of resistors in the path. Where this would still not be as hurtful to perceived sound quality versus typical dedicated headamps is that most speaker amps provide good amounts of current, at least decent ones, and depending on the headphone and preferred playback volume the current is helpful. Still, I agree with you quite a bit, much of this is quite subjective and the differences should be small more times than not. I almost picked up a very nice Naim just for the good headphone performance, but my NAD is doing well enough.
 
Feb 15, 2015 at 12:26 PM Post #29 of 111
  @derbigpr the better Naim typically have a dedicated headamp section as opposed to simply stacking resistors in the path so perhaps that what you heard and why you felt it was so favourable? I think the perceived sound quality differences from your regular headphone out section should rightfully be small, but present if it is just a bunch of resistors in the path. Where this would still not be as hurtful to perceived sound quality versus typical dedicated headamps is that most speaker amps provide good amounts of current, at least decent ones, and depending on the headphone and preferred playback volume the current is helpful. Still, I agree with you quite a bit, much of this is quite subjective and the differences should be small more times than not. I almost picked up a very nice Naim just for the good headphone performance, but my NAD is doing well enough.

 
 
 
Yea, it's all subjective, but the point is, they don't sound bad. And the general consensus on head-fi is that if you plug any headphone into anything other than a dedicated headphone amplifier it's going to sound like crap, which is simply totally untrue. Especially when it comes to actual dedicated audio components such as integrated amplifiers. Most people just assume the headphone outputs on them are just for show, just for cosmetic purpose and don't actually function good at all, but the truth is, the headphone output section sounds as good as the speaker output section, and that is true for majority of amplifiers out there.  If something sounds great with speakers, there's no reason why it should sound bad with headphones if the signal is basically traveling trough the same components plus a couple of resistors. Both sides, headphone manufacturers AND amplifier manufacturers are aware of the market, and make their products to be usable with as many devices as possible in most cases. 
 
Feb 15, 2015 at 12:30 PM Post #30 of 111
But don't you agree that adding resistance does have a smoothing effect on the sound? Obviously the effect is proportionate to the resistance, but at a certain point it should be audible or am I missing something? 
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top