[DaveStarWalker]

This forum is about science being applied to improve the performance of home audio equipment. There are a dozen forums in the rest of head-fi for subjectivism and casual impressions. I'd suggest if you want to engage in that, you would be much more on-topic in one of those forums.

So read carefully what I am saying.

About method.

And so I came up with some tough tests and proposition recently. Oddly enough, it doesn't seem to be rushing. Strange...

Stop talking for people. I don't know you, you don't know me.

I don't speak for you.

However, I am waiting for real answers to the real questions I just asked you.

nope. not for you. sorry. g'bye.

The escape.

As expected.

 

[bigshot]

Which ones? Can you point to a specific model and link to measurements verifying coloration in the audible range?

NOS DACs and tube amps, sure. But I don't know why anyone would deliberately color solid state electronics. If word got out that they weren't performing to spec, I don't know any audio consumer who would choose to buy it.

 

[DaveStarWalker]

Daps and some amps are not designed to be transparent in sound. Many manufacturers have a house sound that they tailor their amps and daps towards while others do try to to obtain transparency in audio.

Yes they are.

But, it is not really tailored with the Dac themself, but with their implantation, and in particular with the analogic stages output .

 

[DaveStarWalker]

Which ones? Can you provide me with measurements verifying coloration in the audible range?

And you?

If you can process that, I am very interested.

Although... About odd and even harmonics...

The even harmonics : which are even multiples of the fundamental frequency; The odd harmonics : which are odd multiples of the fundamental frequency.

About tube vs solid-state amps for instance... And distorsion structure.

 

[bigshot]

nope. not you. sorry!

 

[chef8489]

Which ones? Can you point to a specific model and link to measurements verifying coloration in the audible range?

NOS DACs and tube amps, sure. But I don't know why anyone would deliberately color solid state electronics. If word got out that they weren't performing to spec, I don't know any audio consumer who would choose to buy it.

I don't have measurements on hand, but Astel & Kern. The different lines were known to be tuned differently and now with the sp200t they are even including a tube so it can alter the sound even more.

Then you can compare Fiio the m15, the m11, m11 pro, m11 plus Ltd and the m11 plus.

I have had a chance to dbx the m11 and the se100 and se200 and could tell the difference between the Fiio and the A&k players. This was done about 2 years ago. I didn't set up the test and I was truly blind in it. All files were Flac 16/44.1.

I'll get back to you on the amps but schiit comes to mind. I have not used solid state in some time.

 

[bigshot]

Well, naturally including a tube is likely to color the output, even though there are transparent tube amps.

When you compared two and they sounded different, did you compare them to other things to see which one was transparent and which one was colored? Is Astel & Kern the colored ones? I'm only interested in colored equipment.

I'd like to see the published specs and hopefully measurements on those models. I'm interested to see exactly what they are altering to give it a "house sound". I'm afraid I'm not up on abbreviated names. Which models should I check specifically please? I'd like to do some googling.

Thanks! This is exciting.

P.S. If Schiit is the amp that guy with the forum said was colored, I don't believe it. The measurements he pointed to were well below the range of audibility. His measurements are good, but his conclusions aren't.

Edit: I found this. I'll look it over tomorrow. https://www.stereophile.com/content/astellkern-ak240-portable-media-player-measurements

 

[chef8489]

Se100 and se200 are astell and Kern as is sp200t

The m series are fiio.

As far as when I listened. I don't know which was colored. All I remember is that they sounded different. I know I wound up preferring the astell and Kern sound a lot which was a shame because I preferred the android system of the fiio when I was hands on with them. Unfortunately I don't have any of them. I sold the fiio and gave away both the astell & Kerns to my parents this past Christmas. I have moved back to a desktop setup with planars.

I do know if it had been a sighted test, I think frustration with the astell and Kern ui would have swayed me enough.

 

[DaveStarWalker]

nope. not you. sorry!

Run, you fools ! (Gandalf the Grey)

 

[bigshot]

Astell & Kern's published specs are crazy far below any threshold of audibility, and on first glance the stereophile measurements seem to back them up. Do you think the Fiio might have been the colored one?

 

[DaveStarWalker]

Astell & Kern's published specs are crazy far below any threshold of audibility, and on first glance the stereophile measurements seem to back them up. Do you think the Fiio might have been the colored one?

If you think that every system is ontological perfect = yes.

But in real life, it doesn't exist.

Think about impedance mismatches for instance.

Think about impedance input and output for instance

Etc.

Think about this well-known product = Campfire Andromeda. An universal iem.

If you listen to it with a dap that has a high output impedance, you get no bass and as a result, too much treble (inbalance).

On the other hand, things return to "normal" (excellent low end).

Also, given the very high sensitivity of the product, and given this particular behaviour in relation to the output impedance of the daps, the Andromeda hiss with the aforementioned Astell & Kern (I have tried it with the most high end AK products at the time : Sp1000, then 2000...).

In contrast, it is completely silent (pitch black, dead...) with other daps, such as the Dx90 or the m1s. Cheap dacs... Strangely enough, this is what I use (see my signature).

Ironically, their advertised theoretically performances, especially in terms of theoretically signal-to-noise ratio, are much worse...

Do not confuse signal to noise ratio (dac) with... noises of various origins (whole system). A common confusion. These are not the same think at all.

 

[bigshot]

Impedance mismatches are user error. I’m assuming we’re talking about line out.

 

[chef8489]

Astell & Kern's published specs are crazy far below any threshold of audibility, and on first glance the stereophile measurements seem to back them up. Do you think the Fiio might have been the colored one?

It could be. I have not had a chance to hear the other AK daps. I could not tell the difference between the se200 and se100. I will be going to moon audio in November though. It is said that there is a sound difference between the difference between the tiers from everyone who have heard them even by astell & kern.. the se100 and se200 are in same tier so we will see.

 

[DaveStarWalker]

Impedance mismatches are user error. I’m assuming we’re talking about line out.

Yes and know.

In audio, there is a golden rule = always think in terms of a whole system.
This is where cables can come into the game (Remember that this is the topic here = cables... )

Well-known case: amplifiers and preamplifiers that have input and output impedances that are, if not incompatible, at least not very optimised = poor results.

The same thing with no ajusted gain.

 

[bigshot]

Were you running line out through a switcher? Could the differences be due to impedance or level matching? That wouldn’t be coloration in the unit. Plugging and unplugging between samples can create error in the testing too.