Consider that synergy is very problematic from a sound science perspective. People attribute synergy based on sighted comparisons where audio science would often tell us that no audible difference may exist between dac/amp combo A and dac/amp combo B.
So many times the Sound Science forums become the place that rehashes the concepts still not known, either not known ideas or not understood ideas and various opinions there of.
We have not questioned the fact that frequency graphs are real and important. I still wonder though if the response would always be the same at different volume levels? Lower volume levels could show less bass?
I have always wondered if a headphone distortion graph would show distortion at higher volumes as that is what we hear? I have also always thought there could be a volume level going into the headphone that would yeld the most flat graph?
The question of synergy is a difficult subject for science and non-science minded members to get their heads around. It is maybe the most haphazardly tested concept in Head-Fi. Folks blindly running around at a meet going from system to system trying stuff out. Not exactly scientific but a needed action at times.
Some of our best surprises have been when our listening guesstimations were wrong when audio testing systems and synergy. Science gets us close in terms of how stuff is going to react together, still I think the most honest here would admit that the proof is in the sighted listening tests.
So many times the Sound Science forums become the place that rehashes the concepts still not known, either not known ideas or not understood ideas and various opinions there of.
We have not questioned the fact that frequency graphs are real and important. I still wonder though if the response would always be the same at different volume levels? Lower volume levels could show less bass?
It's pretty well known that many dacs and headphone amps have linear frequency response. However, people will perceive a linear frequency response different at different volumes due to what we understand about equal loudness contours.
Science gets us close in terms of how stuff is going to react together, still I think the most honest here would admit that the proof is in the sighted listening tests.
It's pretty well known that many dacs and headphone amps have linear frequency response. However, people will perceive a linear frequency response different at different volumes due to what we understand about equal loudness contours.
Absolutely not. Listening tests must be double blind to avoid bias.
Yes, we have seen people buy stuff because amps match from a visual perspective. But, yes I agree listening is the final way. Double blind is the best way.
It is amazing how many factors are attributed to liking an old headphone. A little like an old pair of shoes. The memories?
I sat down with the HD800 and HD700 in a demo room. acoustically sealed off from the showroom of course, power conditioners, the Bryston Limited BHA-1 demo unit, the Marantz SA8005 as the source, high end interconnects, you get the idea. Lots of good music at my finger tips like dozens of CD's and SA-CD's to demo, all them considered to be audiophile grade recordings, I was so excited, I was thinking how could this reference system suck, everything from the tunes to the transducers was upper-fi all the way. I thought I was going to get my mind blown
I was completely let down, bright analytical resolution does nothing for me, I felt nothing, no connection to the music it was like the tunes became sterilized after being put under a microscope, I don't know I just couldn't feel the vibe.
The way I see it there are basically two camps in the HiFi world, the "true neutral" camp and the "coloration" camp, the first camp claims the grail is absolute truth in reproduction, the second camp is seeking a suspension of disbelief.
Absolute truth in reproduction is a myth, its fool's gold, I think of it like hyper realistic artwork or hyper real animation CGI and so on, it looks real but something is missing... perhaps the suspension of disbelief, without this quality it doesn't matter what the level of resolution it still looks fake
Yesterdays HiFi gear was not that great, I remember vinyl when it was the only medium around then came magnetic tape and so on. Yesterdays tunes came in loud but not always clear on the FM radio stations, pumped out over low fidelity speaker and amps yet I could still feel a connection, that get up and boogie, clap your hands and smile, sing along...
Proof that higher fidelity has nothing to with the enjoyment of music, what matters is how you connect with the music on an emotional level. The coloration camp is considered a "tier two" sound. I like "tier two" sound
Moving to Tier-1 takes a lot of work. First you must convince yourself that the journey is worth the extra expense. Then you have to convince anyone who asks - especially relatives - that you are moderately sane. They won't buy it, so Tier-1 is something you only share with other Tier-1 indigents.
More importantly: Tier-1 is just a gateway to higher levels of Tier-1.
Climbing each Tier-1 level requires progressively more work. You have to become increasingly good at filtering conflicting evidence. Between each level are the outliers who promise better performance but can't deliver. The higher you go, the more outliers you find. Choose poorly, and you drop a level. Do it a couple of times and you fall back to Tier-2.
Tier-2 has many advantages. Much of it is built from proven Tier-1 ideas that has been commoditized for a more profitable run in Tier-2. There are fewer conflicting claims and more tech that actually works. And since you paid half the Tier-1 price, fewer people think you are crazy.
Why do members fall in love with second tier?Can't say for sure, but it's good to hear™.
I sat down with the HD800 and HD700 in a demo room. acoustically sealed off from the showroom of course, power conditioners, the Bryston Limited BHA-1 demo unit, the Marantz SA8005 as the source, high end interconnects, you get the idea. Lots of good music at my finger tips like dozens of CD's and SA-CD's to demo, all them considered to be audiophile grade recordings, I was so excited, I was thinking how could this reference system suck, everything from the tunes to the transducers was upper-fi all the way. I thought I was going to get my mind blown
I was completely let down, bright analytical resolution does nothing for me, I felt nothing, no connection to the music it was like the tunes became sterilized after being put under a microscope, I don't know I just couldn't feel the vibe.
The way I see it there are basically two camps in the HiFi world, the "true neutral" camp and the "coloration" camp, the first camp claims the grail is absolute truth in reproduction, the second camp is seeking a suspension of disbelief.
Absolute truth in reproduction is a myth, its fool's gold, I think of it like hyper realistic artwork or hyper real animation CGI and so on, it looks real but something is missing... perhaps the suspension of disbelief, without this quality it doesn't matter what the level of resolution it still looks fake
Yesterdays HiFi gear was not that great, I remember vinyl when it was the only medium around then came magnetic tape and so on. Yesterdays tunes where coming in loud but not always clear on the FM radio stations, pumped out over low fidelity speaker and amps yet I could still feel a connection, that get up and boogie, clap your hands and smile, sing along...
Proof that higher fidelity has nothing to with the enjoyment of music, what matters is how you connect with the music on an emotional level. The coloration camp is considered a "tier two" sound. I like "tier two" sound
I absolutely agree that there are two camps. I erroneously thought I was in the neutral camp but have come to know I definitely want certain coloration. I vividly remember the first time I put on my Sennheiser 414's when I was a kid (my parents thought I was nuts asking for these cheap looking plastic headphones for Xmas instead of what other kids asked for). Now as an 'old man' I find myself looking for a listening experience where I can suspend disbelief, close my eyes, and imagine a particular musician is performing right in front of or surrounding me. Perhaps intimacy is my ultimate goal in this hobby.
The basis for this thread is so poor that you could tier by anything and not get off topic. What I ask is, why tier a gradient; mind that the rationale for tiering came assumed.
How and why do members fall in love with mid priced headphones when they could get flagships?
Are flagships really flagships if members only keep their old headphones in the end?
And if this question does not fit Sound Science, where should it go? I feel a fact that not all members are embracing 2014-2015 headphone technology in sound reproduction a very scientific question? This is a question of personal economics, but it is much more than that too.
Yes, there are improvements and application of improvements. Western consumerism outlines that we can obtain the latest technology at a premium price. Weather we choose to buy in on said improvements is a question of personal economics, and sound preference.
The basis for this thread is so poor that you could tier by anything and not get off topic. What I ask is, why tier a gradient; mind that the rationale for tiering came assumed.
I actually learned the word tier to describe 2nd tier bands which are around but fail at music sales in contrast to the legendary bands that sell.
As we already talked about, we are referring to tier as price. LCD-2, LCD-3, LCD-X all top tier, with the new Audeze EL-8 being a second tier headphone.
But, yes it is a gray generalization if the LCD-2 could be 2nd tier due to age and price. Still the question ends up being pertaining to "Why". Why are these headphones the ones of choice and not the flagships?
I absolutely agree that there are two camps. I erroneously thought I was in the neutral camp but have come to know I definitely want certain coloration. I vividly remember the first time I put on my Sennheiser 414's when I was a kid (my parents thought I was nuts asking for these cheap looking plastic headphones for Xmas instead of what other kids asked for). Now as an 'old man' I find myself looking for a listening experience where I can suspend disbelief, close my eyes, and imagine a particular musician is performing right in front of or surrounding me. Perhaps intimacy is my ultimate goal in this hobby.
Not only are there two camps but there are levels in between. I don't see it as black and white.
So far in Sound Science we have determined that vinyl can color and tube amps can color. So our main question to ourselves and the science minded here is, how is it that the HD700 can become a glaring uninteresting sound signature with CDs and a solid-state amp? Are we really hearing the clear reality? Or are we just suffering from a case of bad equipment synergy?
I spent some time with the Sony R-10 at a meet. The Sony sound signature was very flat and almost polite. I think I was listening to a flat response anyway? For me my view was I was listening to a pure non-colored reproduction. Listening to the HD800s was close to the same but maybe a small addition of treble too. Both headphones would be condsidered flagships here at Head-fi. There was a feeling that you could listen to both a long time and find endless amount of entertainment due to their simple complete detail display and big soundstage.
Are the flat response lovers in love with these headphones? Yes. I guess there would be a couple small ways to add color to the mix (vinyl or tube amps) in an attempt to warm up the presentation. I guess it's all personal preference weather to start going into the color territory and how far?
Moving to Tier-1 takes a lot of work. First you must convince yourself that the journey is worth the extra expense. Then you have to convince anyone who asks - especially relatives - that you are moderately sane. They won't buy it, so Tier-1 is something you only share with other Tier-1 indigents.
More importantly: Tier-1 is just a gateway to higher levels of Tier-1.
Climbing each Tier-1 level requires progressively more work. You have to become increasingly good at filtering conflicting evidence. Between each level are the outliers who promise better performance but can't deliver. The higher you go, the more outliers you find. Choose poorly, and you drop a level. Do it a couple of times and you fall back to Tier-2.
Tier-2 has many advantages. Much of it is built from proven Tier-1 ideas that has been commoditized for a more profitable run in Tier-2. There are fewer conflicting claims and more tech that actually works. And since you paid half the Tier-1 price, fewer people think you are crazy.
Why do members fall in love with second tier?Can't say for sure, but it's good to hear™.
I like your comment "Tier-1 is just a gateway to higher levels of Tier-1." Headphones are the final component to complete a system, if your going claim tier one status you need tier one gear at every stage in your signal chain. Tier 1 cans require a tier one amp and so forth now the price really jumps up. Now take into consideration how picky tier 1 gear is, impedance matching power requirements finding synergy in a sea of products all claiming to be that one product you can't live without
I like your comment "Tier-1 is just a gateway to higher levels of Tier-1." Headphones are the final component to complete a system, if your going claim tier one status you need tier one gear at every stage in your signal chain. Tier 1 cans require a tier one amp and so forth now the price really jumps up. Now take into consideration how picky tier 1 gear is, impedance matching power requirements finding synergy in a sea of products all claiming to be that one product you can't live without
The other side of this. is after companies release an expensive flagship and charge accordingly for it, the technology gets put into second tier headphones which will now sell to a wider demographic. Much of the time these headphones have the technology which is better worked out and tested. Much of the time these headphones are lighter and easy to use.
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