[vid]

I don't think the science section is where it's a 'matter of taste and personal preference'. No science in this thread at all.

 

[Redcarmoose]

So if you agree with him, how do you justify this whole thread where you have indicated that someone should prefer and recognize what you have defined to be as Tier 1 as better than what you have defined as Tier 2?

I justify the begining angle of the thread as a set up in a way. A small set up to get the answer in the above posts by both Stereosilia and Kramer5150.

This thread should read out in the end that both Tier 1 and Tier 2 headphones have their value and place here.



Another factor in Tier 2 ownership and happiness is factoring if the owner can live with the signature week in and week out, year in and year out?




Oh, and we may even get responces that folks want to be slightly in back of the concert hall, and everything does not have to sound perfect all the time.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I don't think the science section is where it's a 'matter of taste and personal preference'. No science in this thread at all.

Where would you like to place this? Let me know and I'm happy to move.

 

[shockdoc]

Personal pref. in sound sig. I think goes without saying but I do think you've definitely hit on something with genre of music. When I first joined HeadFi I got into a little argument with a member here (I think he was kicked off some time ago...sort of liked to argue-lol) about genre effecting headphone selection. His main interest was electronic and synthesized music whereas mine is more acoustic. My argument was that I wanted my music to sound exactly the way real instruments sound and wondered how he could judge electronic music the same way since by it's nature it's synthetic. I maintained that it you were listening mostly to music made by a computer or other electronic device it would be much harder to compare two headphones and disregard personal sound sig. preference as your main criteria. 

 

[sonitus mirus]

  Why do so many Head-Fi'ers stop at Tier-2?  There is no compelling evidence to go higher.

 
That is certainly part of the reason, but for me, it is more about practicality.  If money was not an object, would I be content with the audio gear that I have now?  Shamefully, I must admit that the answer would probably be "no".
 
I prefer a colored sound with a modest boost to the bass and treble in most situations where I find myself listening to music.  I'm usually playing music at very low volume levels while I am multitasking.  Every now and again, a song gets in my head or something comes along in my shuffled playlist that puts the boogie in my booty and I turn up the volume for a bit.  I might get stuck on a lovely tune and play it over and over again at louder volumes before finally moving on to the next song in the list.  Elevated bass and treble are perfectly suited for low volume levels, and they don't detract significantly when I have my occasional moment with a movement. (not that kind of movement...gross)
 
If I had some finely mastered music from a famous Russian composer, and I blocked off a part of my Wednesday evening exclusively to listen to this artistic piece while enjoying a fine Cognac, I might expect to play this music at medium to high volume levels, and I would prefer a very flat FR.  This doesn't really fit my personality.  I do enjoy most Russian composers, but I am ok with only hearing them on headphones that are not the most expensive for any manufacturer.  Headphones with a very flat FR do not sound as good to my ears at very low volume levels, and I don't have an easy way to create EQ settings for different situations with the equipment I use to play my music.
 
I've never fallen in love with my headphones.  I doubt I ever will.  It's the music that is my mistress, and the headphone is just the bed we share.

 

[cel4145]

This thread should read out in the end that both Tier 1 and Tier 2 headphones have their value and place here.

This thread should conclude that what you feel is Tier 1 and Tier 2 seems to be strictly based on price and not necessarily performance, despite where you said

.......and as a result discount the performance of superior models?

And even you seem conflicted with your own views given your agreement with David's reviews in the battle of the flagships.

 

[nordkapp]

my 13 year old HD 580s-love'em. HA.

 

[Redcarmoose]

This thread should conclude that what you feel is Tier 1 and Tier 2 seems to be strictly based on price and not necessarily performance, despite where you said
And even you seem conflicted with your own views given your agreement with David's reviews in the battle of the flagships.

The overall theme of this thread was created so that members could post the pros and cons of imperfect headphones. That is it. In many ways it goes against the grain. Headphones like the HD650 and HD600 were state of the art flagships in their day. They are still loved by members and trump the maybe more advanced HD800 in their views.



This is where SOME would discount top tier products.


Simple.


The Flagship Headphone Battle only conferms the basis for this thread, if you read it you will see the most expensive did not always win.

 

[Redcarmoose]

This thread should conclude that what you feel is Tier 1 and Tier 2 seems to be strictly based on price and not necessarily performance, despite where you said
And even you seem conflicted with your own views given your agreement with David's reviews in the battle of the flagships.

The 2nd theme here is that members actually don't want a clear and full frequency headphone at times. Against the full-on view that headphones are like TV purchases, they are not and some listeners still seek a black and white TV at times.

The missing science in this thread is based on......


What are the true graphs showing what is not there and what is there.

The conflict with the Battle of The Flagships is that regardless of money David was finding what he thought was the better headphones. Could it be the lack of sonic perfection guided his conclutions and in the end (because nothing was scientifically tested) he chose the less than perfect flagships?

What is it that allows members to keep less than perfect headphones and sell off their top tier flagships?

 

[Gr8Desire]

When I read anecdotal summaries, I often think to myself: "this reviewer is like me - this review might help!"

But sadly that has not been true. Reviewers that I agree with will eventually like something I hate, or despise something I love. The problem: I can't tell when that will happen. So I end up having to order, audition and eventually return tens of thousand of dollars of equipment. The products I have kept do not align with any single reviewer or even class of reviewers.

The taxonomy of audiophiles also serves to disrupt as much as it helps. For example: When a reviewer says a product "lacks transparency", many others will often hear the same "sound signature".  It is hard to tell much much one review skews the perceptions of others. We have double-blind testing to remove experimental bias in scientific tests. For user impressions, we have nothing.  As such, carefully crafted and beautifully worded personal impression might actually do more harm the  good.

Why do so many listeners prefer Tier-2 phones?  These are the products most have actually tried themselves.  

 

[cel4145]

The conflict with the Battle of The Flagships is that regardless of money David was finding what he thought was the better headphones. Could it be the lack of sonic perfection guided his conclutions and in the end (because nothing was scientifically tested) he chose the less than perfect flagships?

What is it that allows members to keep less than perfect headphones and sell off their top tier flagships?

Why are the less than perfect? Just because they don't cost more? What is meant by "sonic perfection" and how do you determine that? How do you know that they are better headphones?

See you have been questioning why someone would prefer what YOU believe to be 2nd tier headphones. But you need to question your assumptions about why you have designated some headphones as 1st tier and why they are better.

 

[Redcarmoose]

When I read anecdotal summaries, I often think to myself: "this reviewer is like me - this review might help!"

But sadly that has not been true. Reviewers that I agree with will eventually like something I hate, or despise something I love. The problem: I can't tell when that will happen. So I end up having to order, audition and eventually return tens of thousand of dollars of equipment. The products I have kept do not align with any single reviewer or even class of reviewers.

[COLOR=4B0082]The taxonomy of audiophiles also serves to disrupt as much as it helps[/COLOR]. For example: When a reviewer says a product "lacks transparency", many others will often hear the same "sound signature".  It is hard to tell much much one review skews the perceptions of others. We have double-blind testing to remove experimental bias in scientific tests. For user impressions, we have nothing.  As such, carefully crafted and beautifully worded personal impression might actually do more harm the  good.

Why do so many listeners prefer Tier-2 phones?  These are the products most have actually tried themselves.  

The primary issue I feel is the upstream equipment in addition to the headphone. I know I may sound like I am beating a dead horse here? Still the only scientific way to match results is to have the exact same equipment.


I will read reviews and read how a reviewer is selling a headphone and disenchanted with the sound due to a muddy bass response. We all know here how one particular character defect came allow us to not use a headphone in our systems.


If I love this muddy bass headphone it is because I worked with the rest of the equipment to gain system synergy. This is the primary reason that graphs are only a scientific approximate of the animal. This is also the place where I will disregard the reviewers opinion in the test.

The reviewer is under the assumption that said headphone will always react the same in all systems.


This is where the term mileage may vary comes in most. It can never be underestimated how important every piece of the chain is. I get in trouble with S.S. at this point as I start to explain how I generally view every piece of equipment as an active EQ!

But this is the primary reason, IMO that members can have polarizing views on equipment, as it is not always genre or sound preference.


In the end the most important statement here is also the most convoluted .......synergy.........synergy.

I also believe this process starts at the source and works it's way down.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Why are the less than perfect? Just because they don't cost more? What is meant by "sonic perfection" and how do you determine that? How do you know that they are better headphones?

See you have been questioning why someone would prefer what YOU believe to be 2nd tier headphones. But you need to question your assumptions about why you have designated some headphones as 1st tier and why they are better.

A simple answer to your question would be find some headphones that measure bad, sound bad, but folks love em. Simple.

You would benifit from the ideas in this thread if you could realize that the tier system is based on price but has less importance in our talk than your giving it credit for.


Again for you, this thread is based on why members enjoy less than what the community would stature as "the best" headphone based on scientific tests and over all opinion and price.


Of course your point could be.

1) The perfect headphone does not exist in this world.
2) Perfect is a matter of taste.


What this thread is about is folks enjoying messed up headphones, knowing they are messed up. Put a screwdriver into the driver and listen again to the frequency response of the HD800. If you enjoy it then that is what the discussion is about here.

 

[cel4145]

You would benifit from the ideas in this thread if you could realize that the tier system is based on price but has less importance in our talk than your giving it credit for.

I understand that. But you have made claims like this more than once that members keep less than perfect headphones over what you consider tier 1, implying that tier 1 offers some sonic benefit that should be obvious. For example,

What is it that allows members to keep less than perfect headphones and sell off their top tier flagships?

Your title for this thread is "How and why do members fall in love with second tier headphones," and then here is how you defined the different tiers:

HD800.....Tier One
HD700.....Tier Two
AH-D 7000.....Tier One
AH-D 5000.....Tier Two
AH-D 2000..... Tier Three


HD650 used to be tier one now tier two
HD600 used to be tier one now tier two

I provided David's battle of the flagships review to you to show that how you have defined tier 1 and tier 2 is not necessarily based on this idea of sonic perfection.

What this thread is about is folks enjoying messed up headphones, knowing they are messed up. Put a screwdriver into the driver and listen again to the frequency response of the HD800. If you enjoy it then that is what the discussion is about here.

The tier 2 headphones in your list are obviously much better than headphones which had the driver impaled by a screwdriver.

Anyway, all I can do is encourage you to question your own assumptions. You'd learn more from that than what anyone else could contribute to this thread.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I understand that. But you have made claims like this more than once that members keep less than perfect headphones over what you consider tier 1, implying that tier 1 offers some sonic benefit that should be obvious. For example,
Your title for this thread is "How and why do members fall in love with second tier headphones," and then here is how you defined the different tiers:
I provided David's battle of the flagships review to you to show that how you have defined tier 1 and tier 2 is not necessarily based on this idea of sonic perfection.
The tier 2 headphones in your list are obviously much better than headphones which had the driver impaled by a screwdriver.

Anyway, all I can do is encourage you to question your own assumptions. You'd learn more from that than what anyone else could contribute to this thread.

Thank-you, and I will question my assumptions in detail. Still the other underlying question is how many new members are loving less than perfect sound signatures but understanding them to be correct.

The old statement here is if you really heard a perfectly flat response you may not even like what you hear.


Our new $3000 flagships TOTL buzz headphones could just be a new spicy flavor disregarding truth of reproduction, as color can be fun. The issue here is also that equipment is touted as superior and flat audiophile when it's as messed up as anything else but holds a level of clarity that can be misleading to buyers.