[StefanJK]

 
 
dreamwhisper/ StefanJK, I agree headphones are part of the equation. I used a 24bit/192000 Hz dac with OTL tube amp and other is 24bit/96000 Hz DAC/Amp. Pardon me, I don’t want to turn this into a discussion of gear to mate with HD800 as there is plenty of threads for that. Thus don’t want to give out exact brand and model. However I will throw in that both “inner fidelity” and “headfonia” have stated my amp does work well with the HD800. I simply posted this for future buyers who would have more info about the ($ / performance) value of HD800.

viz " I don’t want to turn this into a discussion of gear to mate with HD800 as there is plenty of threads for that. Thus don’t want to give out exact brand and model."  No need to engage in a discussion, but it is helpful to know what exactly you are using for people to draw their own conclusions.  People have different background experiences and assumptions and may see something going that you don't.  Context matters, more so for some than for others.  No need for you to engage after providing that simple info.  
 
Viz.  "both inner fidelity and headfonia have stated my amp does work well with the HD800" -- I'd not put any weight on that...those publications are marketing psy ops, not sources of information, in my view.      

 

[nw130d]

  viz " I don’t want to turn this into a discussion of gear to mate with HD800 as there is plenty of threads for that. Thus don’t want to give out exact brand and model."  No need to engage in a discussion, but it is helpful to know what exactly you are using for people to draw their own conclusions.  People have different background experiences and assumptions and may see something going that you don't.  Context matters, more so for some than for others.  No need for you to engage after providing that simple info.  
 
Viz.  "both inner fidelity and headfonia have stated my amp does work well with the HD800" -- I'd not put any weight on that...those publications are marketing psy ops, not sources of information, in my view.      

 
Understand what you are getting at. Same time we all know it is a rabbit hole in which once started there is no end! If people who read this don't get what I mean, there are 100s of pages on headphone cables! That is the simplest thing ever...
 
I agree some of stuff I read on many sites are snake oil at best. Makes me rethink about their intentions. Eg if there is less headphone hobbyists they are out of sponsors and job as headphone reviewers. For people who want hard core real information read "journal articles" who have falsifiable results. Search in places such as "Google Scholar". Talking about real math and engineer which our real world is build off of.
 
Would also like to add some sites/reviewers are perhaps just being human. Such as sound processing by the same person/brain is not consistent. On top of that can also be un-contnuously subjective. Same with HD800 owners, there must be some who can't bear the fact to be realistic about their purchase. And or is influenced by the social community. Lastly physical limitations. Any rate that is all new can of worms...

 

[icebear]

Ultimately it only matters if someone is happy with the HD800 or not.
You didn't like them and returned them, OK - so what?
 
This is the high-end audio forum of head-fi. No one disputes that for about 20% of the expense of a high end phone, you can get some decent sound for casual listening. Valid point but to try to claim that everybody who is enjoying their HD800 is not realistic, i.e. wrong about their purchase is a very limited point of view

.

 

[Xenophon]

First, I have a VERY hard time believing that these were really new headphones based on the description of what you received, and at the very least this 'authorised dealer' should apologise because most likely something 'went wrong' on his side.
 
I also own a pair of HD-800  but no other Sennheiser headphones as a comparison point.  My guess is it'll be about the same thing as with the HifiMan HE-6 vs HE-500 thing.  The HE-500 cost half the price of the HE-6 (nearer 20% if you include the cost of a very basic amplifier that can drive the 6) and after owning both models for 2 years, my take on it is that the 500 get you about 85% of the HE-6's top performance.  Those remaining 15% will cost a totally disproportionate amount of money.  There's no longer a linear relationship between quality and price at that point, it becomes exponential and diminishing returns kick in hard.  If that's what you intend to say then obviously you're right but it's up to everyone to decide wether or not the premium is worth it or not.  For me it is with the HifiMan cans, with Senn I went straight to the top and don't regret it.
 
They're open back headphones, sound insulation is virtually inexistent, nature of he beast and the price paid for a more open sound without DSP tricks.  In terms of resolution, I find them to be on par with my HE-6 but soundstage is better, quite neutral.  They're not 'fun' headphones, their accuracy and resolution mean you get exactly what goes in; try listening to the digital version of a '30's symphonic recording and you'll quickly grab another set of cans.  
 
Fwiw as you're considering Beyerdynamics:  I owned a DT-880 (600 Ohm) and auditioned the T1.  the 880's are hard to beat at the price, the T1 are better (but no night/day difference) but both share something in their treble signature that I dislike.  Doesn't mean they're bad cans, just not my taste.

 

[Happy Camper]

The benefit of the 6s to those of us with speaker amps is we don't need to spend a dime and get world class sound. For that matter, the 500s sound pretty darn good on those same speaker amps.

 

[nw130d]

Icebear you miss understand, was simply relaying information analytically as possible to anyone purchase of HD800. What they should be prepared for if they do plump down the cash.
 
Not at all about personally if I liked or happy with my purchase. But am glad you too agree with 20% of the cash of high end headphone you can get some good sounding headphones. And I am by no means trying to tell anyone right and wrong.
 
 
 
Xenophon, I am waiting for response back from Sennheiser. Maybe they know a bit about history of these headphones. So far the dealer has been more than fair on his side, I can’t fault them.
 
I have not experienced the HD-6 but based on your explanation and analogy, it is indeed exactly what I am getting at. Except with “diminishing returns kick in” even harder with HD800.
HD800 is priced higher than HE-6….. HD600 is priced lower than HE500. Hopefully you see how humongous the gap is. It is as if I took your example and stretched diminishing returns even more!
 
Thanks for your input on the T1. I’ll be frank and say I have yet owned a Beyerdynamic mostly their old house sound putts me off a bit. However as I never really spend any real time with their product and T1 sounds like their best work yet, makes me want to give it shot. Especially with some hot deals going around.
 
 
 
Happy Camper, makes me laugh (in a good way) how apparently exceedingly difficult it is to drive the HE6. By the sounds of it floor speakers need less power than the HE6!

 

[magiccabbage]

   
 
 With that I am about to try the T1 which can be had for 60% of the price of HD800 these days. Do have a pair of electrostatic headphones on order but will probably end up canceling it as I fear the diminishing return is even more!
 
 

I have the T1 and the HD800. I also have a WA2 for the T1 - the WA2 is considered the best amp for T1 by many. I much prefer the HD800 regardless of amp. I also owned the HD650 and HD800 at the same time and I can assure you that the differences are Huge between the 2 cans. Sometimes it takes a while for you to notice the differences. When I first tried the HD800 and compared it to the HD650 I could hear maybe 10 - 15% of an improvement, then I used HD800 for a week straight without changing and when I went back to the HD650 the differences were drastic - I would say around 25% of an improvement. 
 
PS. All of this was with a cheap DAC - the differences are even more obvious with a high end source. 

 

[StefanJK]

  Sometimes it takes a while for you to notice the differences. When I first tried the HD800 and compared it to the HD650 I could hear maybe 10 - 15% of an improvement, then I used HD800 for a week straight without changing and when I went back to the HD650 the differences were drastic - I would say around 25% of an improvement.
 

Yes, it takes time to learn what to listen for.  Lots of supposed 'burn in' is learning (mostly subconsciously) to listen.  One reason audio is dangerous is that you can learn to like the 'wrong' things (what is 'wrong' depends on ideology/experience/background).  Again, the difference between the HD650 and HD800 should be quite large, even starting out.  Learning makes it larger.    

 

[mulveling]

I'd like to back up the OP at least a little. I remain relatively unimpressed by the HD800's technical gains over say the HD600/650 level -- they're obviously there, but given the price disparity I can see where the OP is coming from. Maybe that's partly because I was previously used to the Qualia 010 (which obviously the HD800 design borrowed significant ideas from), which does some things much better and some things much worse than the HD800 (the better things, however, raise the bar well above what the HD800 can achieve). I knew the weight of this thread would fall very quickly into a combination of "you're not listening right" and "you're not driving them with the right gear". I've heard them with a GS-X and NAD M51 DAC (which plays beautifully with more revealing Stax headphones), plus a few other equally nice amps.
 
Hearing the Stax SR-009 really redefined for me what represents an impressive technical achievement in headphones. That's what I consider a good return on investment; for me personally that headphone doesn't carry the sting of diminishing returns -- with a good amp being prerequisite, as usual. Not saying the Stax is the right move for you, but I can definitely empathize with your complaint being rendered here.

 

[nw130d]

magiccabbage, I too think there is a drastic difference between the two. HD800 in itself is a big departure from “house sound” of before, not truly but easiest way to describe it. However if we are just talking about technical superiority differences there isn’t much to be had.
 
magiccabbage and StefanJK, you guys are correct in as time goes on these differences may become more apparent. But this logic applies to subtle differences but not to major difference. Any major differences would stick out from day 1. Learning to appreciate subtle difference over time is a completely different idea all together. It may just work to appreciate the flaws of the HD800 as well.
 
mulveling, thanks for the support. Your post does weigh in the notion that I am putting forth. Just to address the issue if I am doing it right or not, as I too had that question. I just re-did the Phillips Golden Ears test with the HD800. I can say they did not help me pass the test any faster or easier than a much cheaper headphone such as the K550 among other headphones I had on hand. (no the Philips test is not ultimate answer to headphone testing, just another tool) Electrostatic headphones does seem like a logical progression. Hence I had one on order…

 

[dreamwhisper]

In my opinion, e-stats have always been better than dynamics but also different, so a comparison to the SR009 is apples to oranges.

If you were trying to find the best dynamic headphone available, how much  would you be willing to pay? What would you use it for? 
How do you think the company might go about marketing them to you?

If you're not familiar with the strengths and shortcomings of dynamic technology as a whole it's hard to see the HD800 for what it is. 
 

 

[Taowolf51]

I think it's important not to take your own personal experience and impression as fact. While they were not a good investment for you, they may be for others. For instance, I was personally very surprised at how much of a jump in sound quality they were even when compared to heavy hitting $1000+ cans. Diminishing returns kicks in at different price ranges and strengths for each person. The most important thing is to listen for yourself (ideally provide yourself a way to to audition them with your own gear for an extended period of time, 30 day no questions asked return policies are good for this) and make a decision on whether you believe it to be worth the money yourself.
 
People should always be wary of the returns from a significant investment like an expensive headphone, and should always have a way to return them if they aren't worth the asking price to the individual.

 

[xaval]

This thread probably shouldn't even be about the HD800. From my experience when you jump to top of the line equipment there's is, usually, quite a large price gap when looking down to mid tier components. This price gap does not equate, at all, with perceived increase in sound quality.
 
Sticking to headphones, moving from HD6X0 to HD800 does not "justify" the sound quality increase for the money. Same thing with a pair of DT880 looking at T1 or HE500 to HE6. That's how this market is moving and some people just don't think it's "worth it" despite the fact the top cans sound better. My wife cannot even begin to understand why I cannot be happy with the phones that come in the smartphone box when music sound just fine like that. I respect that. This is HF, though. Most of us are simply happy to spend a lot more for a bit better performance. 

 

[nw130d]

Thanks for the input. I am for the more part in agreement to mutual... The purpose of my OP is simply to leave a piece of purchasing information. And keep that information as none humanly opinionated as possible. How I see it is any hobby has an intrinsic value to that person vs the mass public. I am familiar with this as headphones is actually my cheaper winter hobby. One of my mountain bikes cost more than all of my headphones & gears collection and I just don't have one bike. Hard for many people to understand why I just didn't go to Walmart and buy a bike... But this is not to deviate from the logic that there is diminishing returns even for people within the hobby and people should be aware, or lack of better word warned.

 

[icebear]

  Thanks for the input. I am for the more part in agreement to mutual... The purpose of my OP is simply to leave a piece of purchasing information. And keep that information as none humanly opinionated as possible. How I see it is any hobby has an intrinsic value to that person vs the mass public. I am familiar with this as headphones is actually my cheaper winter hobby. One of my mountain bikes cost more than all of my headphones & gears collection and I just don't have one bike. Hard for many people to understand why I just didn't go to Walmart and buy a bike... But this is not to deviate from the logic that there is diminishing returns even for people within the hobby and people should be aware, or lack of better word warned.

.... as none humanly opinionated as possible.  ROFL , try again

.
 
Anyone in the market for a $1500 headphone will do a little bit of research before shelling out that much money and I guess they are mature enough to decide how to spend their money and to judge what value they get in return. If ROI is not good enough, you can usually sent it back. If you google for HD800 reviews or just look at the amazon reviews (non professional, of course) you will quickly realize that the majority of HD800 buyers does actually like the phones. You are clearly in the minority.
 
Why of all things are you so annoyed about the HD800 that you go on a mission to warn others about the diminishing return factor?
A high end bike, or even a couple of them are a perfect example of the exact same diminishing returns effect but you are obviously enjoying it - me too btw

.
If you don't like the phones that's perfectly OK with everybody but trying to warn people about a purchase that you deem a bad value ?
Get on the bike and let off some steam

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You'll feel better afterwards