[nw130d]

Just a fair warning (this is not a review) I am going to call out how terrible of an investment the HD 800 are. The comments is in the context of the price and diminishing returns. Which I hope future buyers will be warned as it was not in any of the many reviews I have read! I will reiterate that the HD 800 are not bad set of cans, however...
 
A quick background to how it lead up to the HD800. I been following the Head Fi community for a few years now. Didn't post much, as I don't feel I have anything new to contribute till now. Discussions to me can be entertaining but end of day they are just discussions, not science or falsifiable statements, hence the famously used quotes "in my opinion". As I read reviews and many statements over the last few years it quickly became apparent I need a "reference headphone" a set of cans that most people compare their new purchase with, thus I know what they are thinking. Easy to say in the earlier days those were the HD580/600/650, K701, DT880. I haven't collected any official statistics, however it appears today the HD600/650 is the common reference cans most others compare and reference their new purchase with.
 
Now my logic is headphones are ideal for isolating the listener from the world, and to save any poor souls who does not enjoy my taste of music (but really they should give it try and enjoy it with me). With that the only logical purchase is closed headphones, for sure not open! If open, I might as well listen to speakers. To some who will now think, speakers don't get you every bit of detail and I would agree. But kicker is with open headphones you are getting background noise and interference. So I ask what is extra detail and resolution without being able to isolate it from the background? Answer is useless detail mixed in with all the other background noise. So if I wanted to listen to music and background noise why not do it in fashion, with some speakers and throw in some room acoustics and real imaging for kicks? But reluctantly I still purchased the HD580 and also HD600 which I still have. I do enjoy the HD 600 as much as the next guy but if I want to be immersed in the music I go for my closed cans.
 
The HD 600 serves it purpose well. Any review I read about new set of cans that just come out, I can almost always find reviews comparing them to the HD 600. I do own some bigger hitter closed headphones that is superior in some or many ways to the HD 600 (in measurements and other peoples reviews). With that I also been hearing many-many-many good things about the HD800 ever since it came out, don't think I am alone on that one. With some hard research mostly of measurements test on the HD800. I came to the assumpted conclusion that the HD800 is detail monsters, guess the proper term would be resolution along with one of best at imaging. Knowing the best closed headphones are still slightly behind open, I decided I want the new king of reviewed and referenced headphones by all other cans are compared to in the "summit fi" aka "flag ship" or what you may call it.
 
Upon receiving of the HD800 I was shocked! No not in a good way. Even before I plugged it in I noticed many many imperfections, now I do not have OCD, these weren't minor imperfections. One of the ear cups on the black plastic appeared to be spilled coffee or some kind of beverage, maybe these were hand built with consumption of an early morning coffee? Another is one of the pivot upon which the ear cups hang is noticeably stiffer, while other one flops about on the same axes. The inner lining mesh was creased up. Even the plastic extrusions are far from perfect. Now I read all day long of some people bashing made in China or other Asian made headphones, how they are low quality but honest truth is both my K550 and SRH1540 is of better build, just to name a few (the basic materials used on the HD800 is better, but key is only some). Far as I know the HD800 I bought are new and appear new. No scratches, dust, finger prints anywhere on them.
 
The most important, sound. From the reviews I was expecting at least 20% better in most aspects compared to the HD 600. The true is far from that, all things considered the HD800 is marginally better if that than the HD600 or any of my other cans. If one were to compare only 1 attribute yes HD800 may excel in that particulate quality. But one can also name another quality HD800 fail to compare at. One of the HD 800 most enduring quality is it's resolution, ability to be transparent and just get on with producing what was recorded. Even then it is somewhat colored bright just as much as the HD600 is colored dark. I asked my self well it could be the mic and gear used in recording, my dac, amp , or mixing artiest that colored the sound? With that the same file over HD600 sounded darker. So if everything stayed the same with exception of headphones, the headphones is then the alternating variable. Therefor headphone is what changed the sound. With that I no longer questioned my gear just headphones. Now some of you will say "sinergy" man "sinergy" you need the right amp (or bs cables, no before you troll google "superconductors") or what ever it maybe with your HD800. So I ask I need alterations in the form of "colored" gear to get my HD 800 sound natural? Why don't I just buy natural sounding headphone in the first place? Some may ask well what is natural to you? I can only say I use classical, guitar, drum, piano solos to see if it sounds like the real thing.
 
I will wrap up with a take away message. The HD800 is a good pair of headphone. With price of at least 300% if not more in cost then the many other good headphones of today. Are you getting a better sound? In some ways yes but not as big as you think. Maybe at most 10% improvement in some areas and others which they fail. Overall I would say they average only about 3-4% better in overall audio quality than the $400-$600 headphones of today. Where does these 10,3,4% come from, what scale? Think HD800 is 100%, Apple ear buds as 50%, intercom as 10% (note I do not mean HD800 is perfect at 100%, simply a scale). Now questions is for people who are looking to buy the HD800 or any flagship headphones, are you ready to pay 300% mark up on price to get 3-4% better audio quality? And no you are not getting better build quality or comfort.

 

[mulveling]

This isn't a matter of diminishing returns; you just don't like the HD800's sound at all -- and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a huge departure from the HD580/600/650 family, and I'm not a fan of it myself. Also, be prepared for lots of responses telling you how much your gear sucks at driving the HD800
 
There's lots of really great gear out there along a widening spectrum of price points, so if you feel you're hitting diminishing returns upgrading from the HD600/HD650 -- which are still quite good but no longer approach the gold-standard of headphone sound quality -- then you bought the wrong gear (or you have an unresolved system bottleneck, e.g. source). Sell 'em and try again!

 

[IncredulousD]

So you aren't a fan of open back headphones (some aren't) and the sound isn't for you. That's the headphone world for you. The HD 800s cost so much because they are hand-built and require many processes that are exclusive to the line. In manufacturing, it is cheaper to have an assembly area that produces 20 different types of products, rather than one. Sennheiser put a lot of money up front into the idea that consumers would be willing to purchase a flagship headphone product. If you have seen the videos of how HD 800s are made, it is clear that a lot of thought and time (aka money) is put into ensuring that each employee is taken care of, has a comfortable workspace that is designed around their individual needs and has the proper training to ensure a quality product. You may be able to purchase Apple earbuds for much less, but Foxconn workers are likely not being properly taken care of by the company and trained solely around ensuring perfection for that product. I do believe more time was put into designing and implementing the suicide prevention nets for their factories than hiring each employee involved in assembly based on a background in fine motor skills (as Sennheiser does for the HD 800s).The fact that human beings are involved means that there is the potential for human error. If I received a pair of expensive headphones and there were flaws such as you described, I would chalk that up to bad luck and return the headphones for a replacement without flaws. I'm sorry to hear that you had such a bad first impression and wish you luck on your future headphone purchases. 

 

[nw130d]

You guys do bring up very good points but here are my thoughts on the matter, not implying anyone is right or wrong just want to address these points.
 
Quote:

  This isn't a matter of diminishing returns; you just don't like the HD800's sound at all -- and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a huge departure from the HD580/600/650 family, and I'm not a fan of it myself. Also, be prepared for lots of responses telling you how much your gear sucks at driving the HD800
 
There's lots of really great gear out there along a widening spectrum of price points, so if you feel you're hitting diminishing returns upgrading from the HD600/HD650 -- which are still quite good but no longer approach the gold-standard of headphone sound quality -- then you bought the wrong gear (or you have an unresolved system bottleneck, e.g. source). Sell 'em and try again!

 
I purchased the HD800 mostly not for the sound signature, but for their technical abilities. Haha yes I am actually surprised no one has yet told me I need 10g worth of gear to drive the HD 800. These people are not wrong by any means. This logic is a no brainier and applies to everything, eg I can take a 10g Mazda Miata spend $100g in upgrades and if one done their homework, the end result should be a better car. But at this point is the headphone good? Or 10g worth of gear that made the headphone better?
 
There is no question of whether or not there is diminishing returns. There is abusively diminishing returns when you are purchasing any product that is top tear. However I am trying to warn anyone who is interested in the HD800, at lest. The HD800 although good it is only minimally better than something like the HD600. Perhaps I might be so daft and say the HD800 is hyped. With that I am about to try the T1 which can be had for 60% of the price of HD800 these days. Do have a pair of electrostatic headphones on order but will probably end up canceling it as I fear the diminishing return is even more!
 

  So you aren't a fan of open back headphones (some aren't) and the sound isn't for you. That's the headphone world for you. The HD 800s cost so much because they are hand-built and require many processes that are exclusive to the line. In manufacturing, it is cheaper to have an assembly area that produces 20 different types of products, rather than one. Sennheiser put a lot of money up front into the idea that consumers would be willing to purchase a flagship headphone product. If you have seen the videos of how HD 800s are made, it is clear that a lot of thought and time (aka money) is put into ensuring that each employee is taken care of, has a comfortable workspace that is designed around their individual needs and has the proper training to ensure a quality product. You may be able to purchase Apple earbuds for much less, but Foxconn workers are likely not being properly taken care of by the company and trained solely around ensuring perfection for that product. I do believe more time was put into designing and implementing the suicide prevention nets for their factories than hiring each employee involved in assembly based on a background in fine motor skills (as Sennheiser does for the HD 800s).The fact that human beings are involved means that there is the potential for human error. If I received a pair of expensive headphones and there were flaws such as you described, I would chalk that up to bad luck and return the headphones for a replacement without flaws. I'm sorry to hear that you had such a bad first impression and wish you luck on your future headphone purchases. 

 
No no I do like sound of open or closed. Just the logic of open back doesn't appeal to me. Mostly because in today's world very few places are quite. I have seen the video of how HD800 are made. I am impressed how clean and organized everything is, as consumers we are paying for all that cleanness and wasted space lol jk. Really though I imagine the HD800 is a marketing and brand statement. When Sennheiser first produced the HD800 in late 2009 the MSRP of $1600 is by no means common. I can only assume their primary intention was to reciprocate the development and tooling costs with such a asking price. They perhaps would of never even thought of selling more than 2000 pairs in the first 5 years. Little could of they predicted such a price would be the adopted norm by the industry, mostly of consumer doing. With that adopted price range so come with a steep diminishing return.

 

[ModestMeowth]

   
lol jk. 

Easy to disregard everything you just said...

 

[nw130d]

  Easy to disregard everything you just said...

Just trying to keep things light bud!

 

[listen4joy]

hd800 has many owners and fans and i am one of them. not by mistake, i think you need to go to some meet and hear them with proper amp and dac. and if after that you will not like them they are just not your style, you can try other headphones LCD 2,3, Hifiman HE-6, Stax, etc... enjoy the journey of discovery whats fits best for you

 

[ubs28]

The $500 Sennheiser HD650 is 700% the price the $70 AKG K240 while the difference in performance isn't big. The law of diminished returns hit quickly with headphones. 
 
I wouldn't personally recommened the HD800 to people who just listen to music casually. But as reference headphones, they are very hard to beat. I have told friends to buy the Shure SE215 about 5 times and all of them are extremely happy with the purchase. I'm pretty sure they would be disappointed if I told them to buy the HD800 for $1500 and then also a DAC + AMP for $2000. 

 

[Dogmatrix]

Attributing percentages or scales to measure improvement is difficult
What percentage would you give to a live performance ? It would have to be 100% but what about acoustics of the venue or the pa equipment ?
All hifi gear occupies the space between a bean can and a piece of string and a live performance
Today's equipment comes close to the ideal even at the cheap end so the space for improvement is small
I really see the issue as one of the value put on small gains to many it will not be worth the price to others any improvement is precious
So people spend ridiculous amounts on cables and shelves etc which yield minute improvement if any
That is what the audiophile life is all about , it is a hobby not a requirement you participate or not by choice

 

[wink]

Quote:nw130d

 Upon receiving of the HD800 I was shocked! No not in a good way. Even before I plugged it in I noticed many many imperfections, now I do not have OCD, these weren't minor imperfections. One of the ear cups on the black plastic appeared to be spilled coffee or some kind of beverage, maybe these were hand built with consumption of an early morning coffee? Another is one of the pivot upon which the ear cups hang is noticeably stiffer, while other one flops about on the same axes. The inner lining mesh was creased up. Even the plastic extrusions are far from perfect. Now I read all day long of some people bashing made in China or other Asian made headphones, how they are low quality but honest truth is both my K550 and SRH1540 is of better build, just to name a few (the basic materials used on the HD800 is better, but key is only some). Far as I know the HD800 I bought are new and appear new. No scratches, dust, finger prints anywhere on them.

Pick an option
 
1. Did you buy them new?
2. Did they come in a sealed box?
3. Did you buy them open box?
4. Did you buy them second hand fron someone who stated that they were only used for x hours?
5. Other (Please explain).
 

 these weren't minor imperfections. One of the ear cups on the black plastic appeared to be spilled coffee or some kind of beverage, maybe these were hand built with consumption of an early morning coffee? Another is one of the pivot upon which the ear cups hang is noticeably stiffer, while other one flops about on the same axes. The inner lining mesh was creased up. Even the plastic extrusions are far from perfect.

There is no way I am accepting that those are brand new headphones from your description provided.
 
It's obvious that you were sold a pup.
 

 Far as I know the HD800 I bought are new and appear new. No scratches, dust, finger prints anywhere on them.

It's not hard to give them a wipe over with a damp rag, and besides the coffee is a giveaway to them being second hand.
 
 
Please let us know how you bought them. Were they advertised as brand new?
 
These definitely need to be returned as faulty/defective ASAP.

 

[KmanChu]

I also have a hard time believing those were new, sealed HD800s bought from a reputable Sennheiser dealer. If they were then you should have no problem returning them for a proper set.
 
Some of your complaints, however, really just don't make sense. They are an open headphone so no isolation is a given. They are built to be the absolutely most revleaing and technical headphones around. Your complaints sound to me very much like buying a Ferrari and then complaining that it was expensive, needs Premium gas, doesn't have a backseat, the ride is rough, and that a Toyota Corolla is a better "investment" (which it probably is) because you can fit a car-seat in the back and carry groceries in the trunk.

 

[dreamwhisper]

Just a headphone on it's own isn't high-end. 
People put care into selecting their source and amp to make it what they consider high-end.
No transducer, selected for it's 'technical abilities', will satisfy the pride of assembling a system of your own through trial and error.

If you didn't already you should prbly list what gear you've tried them with.

 

[StefanJK]

 

Maybe I missed it, but what amp are you using?  Dac?  
 
My experience is that amps matter much more that you'd initially think.  I didn't start out with a $1,700 amp...
 
Also, it does sound like your HD800 may be knockoffs/fakes/broken.  

 

[cdsa35000]

Sorry for your lemon.
Fraue Helga's were in there periods, shiit happens:
[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5es8zggYM7A[/VIDEO]

 

[nw130d]

usb28/ Dogmatrix, think you guys get my key point that HD800 is poor value considering diminishing returns compared to something such as the K240. Poor value doesn’t mean they are bad headphones. Again this is not topic if I didn’t like the sound signature. I bought these for their technical abilities. I like the sound signature of my HD25, does not mean they are better in abilities than the HD800. Or perhaps I am looking at it the wrong way, instead think (today’s technology makes it possible to produce good headphones for not a lot of capital, which benefit the consumer)
 
Wink/ KmanChu/ StefanJk/ cdsa35000, yep did purchase them “new” according to the “authorized Sennheiser dealer” online store. There was no sealing sticker on my HD800. On that note I really wish Sennheiser did that ribbon sealing tab V Moda or Monster uses on their headphone boxes. I did actually email the store last night, they were very quick to respond and happy to do an exchanges. I did also email Sennheiser at the same time they have yet to email me back regarding if these are a refurbished set.
 
KmanChu, think you miss understood me I don’t like the logic of open headphones for reasons in the first post. As for the analogy you are somewhat right but I reword it. I am stating I just bought a Ferrari 458, all things considered not much better as a Porsche 911 GT3 which is 60% of the price. Corolla is closer to everyday headphone such as Apple ear buds. And I am already accustomed to paying above and beyond for premium gas/parts/service.
 
dreamwhisper/ StefanJK, I agree headphones are part of the equation. I used a 24bit/192000 Hz dac with OTL tube amp and other is 24bit/96000 Hz DAC/Amp. Pardon me, I don’t want to turn this into a discussion of gear to mate with HD800 as there is plenty of threads for that. Thus don’t want to give out exact brand and model. However I will throw in that both “inner fidelity” and “headfonia” have stated my amp does work well with the HD800. I simply posted this for future buyers who would have more info about the ($ / performance) value of HD800.