[thyname]

What is the difference between these three types of DACs:
 
1 - (traditional) Delta / Sigma
 
2 - Multibit (such as Schiit Modi, Bifrost, Gungnir Multibit)
 
3 - R23 (like Holo Spring, or Denafrips)
 
Can somebody point me to a resource / link?
 
Thanks

 

[joseph69]

I have the same Stax system as you do, and I've also replaced my PWD-ll (which is a great DAC) with the Spring "KTE" and I'm amazed with the immediate improvements over the PWD-ll and it only gets better!

 

[theboch]

Hah Thats truly a coincidence
 
Good to see that someone with the same system feels the same improvements. Should be a good indicator for other people interested in the Spring!

 

[mscott58]

What is the difference between these three types of DACs:


 


1 - (traditional) Delta / Sigma


 


2 - Multibit (such as Schiit Modi, Bifrost, Gungnir Multibit)


 


3 - R23 (like Holo Spring, or Denafrips)


 


Can somebody point me to a resource / link?


 


Thanks

 


You mean R2R?

 

[thyname]

What is the difference between these three types of DACs:


 


1 - (traditional) Delta / Sigma


 


2 - Multibit (such as Schiit Modi, Bifrost, Gungnir Multibit)


 


3 - R23 (like Holo Spring, or Denafrips)


 


Can somebody point me to a resource / link?


 


Thanks

 


You mean R2R?

Yes. Sorry for the typo

 

[MacedonianHero]

  Glad to hear that you've received your DAC and looking forward to reading your review too.
Will all of your critical listening & review be conducted using the USB input or do you plan to exercise the AES and/or I²S inputs?

 
Right now it's USB, but there is a Singxer SU-1 coming in for the review as well. That said, I'm usually a minimalist when it comes to audio and prefer less things in the audio path that could add colouration. But my mind is certainly open to being changed with evidence. 
 
Tonight I'm using the optical input (playing some of my favourite CDs) and I'm really enjoying this DAC! Next up will be back to USB audio (most likely DSD recordings).

 

[Energy]

This link speaks briefly on it. Gives you the general details. http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm
 
Multibit is also R2R by the way.
 
1. Delta Sigma (good)
2. R2R Multibit (better)
3. R2R Ladder (best)
 
Delta Sigma (DS) has a single switch and lots of guessing done. It's in short, a single switch or 1-bit.
R2R Multibit is like what you see with old chips like the PCM1704, it has more switches implemented thus has the ability to decode multiple bits of information (multi-bit).
R2R Ladder has resistors to compensate the voltages instead of these switches thus is more accurate. The removal of the switch noises that can cause measurable ring improves further on sound quality.
 
No-OverSampling (NOS) removes the FIR filters and whatever else digital oversampling that's built into the hardware (oversampling chips), generally to smooth out the edged lines and improve SNR/THD measurements. The key concept about NOS is to remove all these filters to retain the original signal. It's a "purist" approach. Theoretically our ears already have natural filters built in since birth, so when hearing an original sample, you'll perceive it as sounding more realistic. It's not only a perception because it's in fact true. Analog should retain it's natural qualities. Also when a signal leaves the DAC, it already goes through certain filters of it's own. No need for abundance. The idea is that too much filtering will just lead to digital glare. By removing all this, the NOS sound becomes more like vinyl (likelife). Music no longer sounds forced. The con however of removing these filters is that the measurements of the DAC doesn't run as high. People assume the best DAC's have the best numbers and that's certainly untrue. Brands fight for numbers because they know it's a selling point thus implement the use of more delta sigma chips to lower THD and increase SNR. While the use of more chips does improve sound quality by a small margin, there's a limit cap to how better it gets. Generally by switching from a delta sigma DAC to a delta sigma DAC, you might be getting a more different sonic signature than an actual improvement. Perhaps the improvement is that you like it more, so there's that... 

 

[yage]

  This link speaks briefly on it. Gives you the general details. http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm
 
Multibit is also R2R by the way.
 
1. Delta Sigma (good)
2. R2R Multibit (better)
3. R2R Ladder (best)
 
Delta Sigma (DS) has a single switch and lots of guessing done. It's in short, a single switch or 1-bit.
R2R Multibit is like what you see with old chips like the PCM1704, it has more switches implemented thus has the ability to decode multiple bits of information (multi-bit).
R2R Ladder has resistors to compensate the voltages instead of these switches thus is more accurate. The removal of the switch noises that can cause measurable ring improves further on sound quality.
 
No-OverSampling (NOS) removes the FIR filters and whatever else digital crap oversampling that's built into the hardware, generally to smooth out the edged lines and improve SNR/THD measurements. The key concept about NOS is to remove all these filters to retain the original signal. In a way it's a "purist" approach to audio. Theoretically our ears already have natural filters built in since birth and when the signal leaves the DAC they already go through certain filters of their own. The idea is that too much filtering will just lead to digital glare. By removing all this, the NOS sound becomes more like vinyl (likelife). Music no longer sounds forced. The con however of removing these filters is that the measurements of the DAC doesn't run as high. People assume the best DAC's have the best numbers and that's certainly untrue. Brands fight for numbers because they know it's a selling point thus implement the use of more delta sigma chips to lower THD and increase SNR. While the use of more chips does improve sound quality by a small margin, there's a limit cap to how better it gets. Generally by switching from a delta sigma DAC to a delta sigma DAC, you might be getting a more different sonic signature than an actual improvement. Perhaps the improvement is that you like it more, so there's that... 

 
There's a lot of gross oversimplifications and multiple inaccuracies in this post. A good start to truly understanding these technologies would be reading the Analog Devices tutorials (both ADC and DAC) by Walt Kester. Do a search online, you'll find them.

 

[mscott58]

   
There's a lot of gross oversimplifications and multiple inaccuracies in this post. A good start to truly understanding these technologies would be reading the Analog Devices tutorials (both ADC and DAC) by Walt Kester. Do a search online, you'll find them.

I think this is what was being referenced.
 
http://www.analog.com/en/education/courses-and-tutorials/tutorials/mixed-signal-electronics-systems.html
 
Lots of technical stuff here, so 99.9+% of the population will have no interest reading this (even us engineers who have been trained on a good amount of this stuff). 
 
I applaud @Energy as he was at least trying to be helpful, and I don't believe he was trying to be fully accurate and complete. 
 
Cheers 

 

[yage]

  I think this is what was being referenced.
 
http://www.analog.com/en/education/courses-and-tutorials/tutorials/mixed-signal-electronics-systems.html
 
Lots of technical stuff here, so 99.9+% of the population will have no interest reading this (even us engineers who have been trained on a good amount of this stuff). 
 
I applaud @Energy as he was at least trying to be helpful, and I don't believe he was trying to be fully accurate and complete. 
 
Cheers 

 
Yes, I applaud the effort. But so much pointless mud gets slung over sigma-delta vs. R-2R conversion that I'm tired of yet another audiophile perpetuating the cycle. The tutorials aren't too difficult to understand with some effort. Anything worth knowing is going to require you to use some gray matter in the process.

 

[mscott58]

   
Yes, I applaud the effort. But so much pointless mud gets slung over sigma-delta vs. R-2R conversion that I'm tired of yet another audiophile perpetuating the cycle. The tutorials aren't too difficult to understand with some effort. Anything worth knowing is going to require you to use some gray matter in the process.

True. Overall less mud slinging and more personal listening, combined with a live-and-let-live attitude would make everything better on the boards. Cheers 

 

[thyname]

This link speaks briefly on it. Gives you the general details. http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm

Multibit is also R2R by the way.

1. Delta Sigma (good)
2. R2R Multibit (better)
3. R2R Ladder (best)

Delta Sigma (DS) has a single switch and lots of guessing done. It's in short, a single switch or 1-bit.
R2R Multibit is like what you see with old chips like the PCM1704, it has more switches implemented thus has the ability to decode multiple bits of information (multi-bit).
R2R Ladder has resistors to compensate the voltages instead of these switches thus is more accurate. The removal of the switch noises that can cause measurable ring improves further on sound quality.

No-OverSampling (NOS) removes the FIR filters and whatever else digital oversampling that's built into the hardware (oversampling chips), generally to smooth out the edged lines and improve SNR/THD measurements. The key concept about NOS is to remove all these filters to retain the original signal. It's a "purist" approach. Theoretically our ears already have natural filters built in since birth, so when hearing an original sample, you'll perceive it as sounding more realistic. It's not only a perception because it's in fact true. Analog should retain it's natural qualities. Also when a signal leaves the DAC, it already goes through certain filters of it's own. No need for abundance. The idea is that too much filtering will just lead to digital glare. By removing all this, the NOS sound becomes more like vinyl (likelife). Music no longer sounds forced. The con however of removing these filters is that the measurements of the DAC doesn't run as high. People assume the best DAC's have the best numbers and that's certainly untrue. Brands fight for numbers because they know it's a selling point thus implement the use of more delta sigma chips to lower THD and increase SNR. While the use of more chips does improve sound quality by a small margin, there's a limit cap to how better it gets. Generally by switching from a delta sigma DAC to a delta sigma DAC, you might be getting a more different sonic signature than an actual improvement. Perhaps the improvement is that you like it more, so there's that... 

Thanks! Very informative and at the same not too technically challenging.

I had no idea that a "Multibit " is R2R....

So for example, the Schiit Mimby, Bimby, Gumby are R2R Multibit, and Holo Spring , Denafrips are R2R Ladder?

 

[Energy]

My apologies. I was typing super vague to the point where I slurred out blurred lines of inaccuracy. I kinda made it beyond simple and that made it ambiguous and wrong.
 
Thanks for not grilling me 

 
 
Quote:

Thanks! Very informative and at the same not too technically challenging.

I had no idea that a "Multibit " is R2R....

So for example, the Schiit Mimby, Bimby, Gumby are R2R Multibit, and Holo Spring , Denafrips are R2R Ladder?

 
You can read a little more about it here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/779572/r2r-multibit-vs-delta-sigma#post_12038925
 
Mimby, Bimby, Gumby, Yggy, all R2R Multibit.
Holo Audio Spring, Total DAC, MSB Analo/DAC V, Aqua HiFi Formula, Metrum Menuet/Pavane, Denafrips Ares, all R2R Ladder.
 
It's easy to tell when you check the insides out. The ones with R2R Ladder has rows of resistors or sometimes placed on modules. Higher end ones have dual mono's per channel for differential mode. Some companies offer NOS, some OS, and a few offers both with a push of a button for OS/NOS toggle. Holo Audio Spring being one of them.

 

[thyname]

You can read a little more about it here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/779572/r2r-multibit-vs-delta-sigma#post_12038925

Mimby, Bimby, Gumby, Yggy, all R2R Multibit.
Holo Audio Spring, Total DAC, MSB Analo/DAC V, Aqua HiFi Formula, Metrum Menuet/Pavane, Denafrips Ares, all R2R Ladder.

It's easy to tell when you check the insides out. The ones with R2R Ladder has rows of resistors or sometimes placed on modules. Higher end ones have dual mono's per channel for differential mode. Some companies offer NOS, some OS, and a few offers both with a push of a button for OS/NOS toggle. Holo Audio Spring being one of them.

Thanks. I realize I have quite a bit to read.

I had a Mimby but I am not very thrilled with it. Bifrost 4490 sounds better to my ears. Since my Amp is balanced , I would look for a Balanced R2R DAC, which gets me to $1,000+ territory (Gumby). Ares is about $650 with shipping (doable), but I am skeptical of overseas shipping, as there are no US based dealers for Denafrips

 

[Energy]

Thanks. I realize I have quite a bit to read.

I had a Mimby but I am not very thrilled with it. Bifrost 4490 sounds better to my ears. Since my Amp is balanced , I would look for a Balanced R2R DAC, which gets me to $1,000+ territory (Gumby). Ares is about $650 with shipping (doable), but I am skeptical of overseas shipping, as there are no US based dealers for Denafrips

 
We catch ourselves countless times throughout the day not doing anything productive. Now during those times you can take out your phone linked to Head-Fi and do some reading. It'll really benefit your purchasing decisions and lead you to happiness.
 
If you're looking at under $1000, The Denafrips Ares is a good place to start. I've had a Gungnir and MultiBit upgrade before but still preferred R2R Ladder. I have sold my Yggdrasil recently but it competed very well against my Holo Audio Spring (Level 1). I had the Level 2 but sold it as it didn't sound any better to my ears. I only sold the Yggdrasil due to the introduction of a new DAC into my system called the Metrum Pavane. I got a good steal from a fellow Head-Fier for $2,500 otherwise I would never spend over $2000 on a DAC. It's a personal choice.
 
Honestly the thing that changes the sound most to me is by upgrading a speaker or a headphone. The second would be the DAC. I've heard more DAC differencies than I have with amplifiers. Please note that the Ares does not do NOS, one crucial feature that I find translate to natural sound production.
 
If I were you I'd save up my bucks and get a used Holo Audio Spring for $1000-1200. Linear compensated, NOS, R2R Ladder, transformer is further from the output and conversion stage, does DSD just in case you'll ever need it, and offers I2S Input. Just recommending. YMMV.