[Superunknown2]

Does anyone know what the actual sound difference is between the standard Bliss and the KTE Bliss? The internal design differences seem to be the same as the differences between the level 2 May and the KTE May, and GoldenSound compared them back-to-back and said the differences were so small that they probably weren't worth the cost difference. At some level I have a sneaking suspicion that many of the "upgrades" in the KTE versions are a bit of snake oil. Has anyone actually been able to compare them to see what if any difference there is?

 

[Leto Dal]

Does anyone know what the actual sound difference is between the standard Bliss and the KTE Bliss? The internal design differences seem to be the same as the differences between the level 2 May and the KTE May, and GoldenSound compared them back-to-back and said the differences were so small that they probably weren't worth the cost difference. At some level I have a sneaking suspicion that many of the "upgrades" in the KTE versions are a bit of snake oil. Has anyone actually been able to compare them to see what if any difference there is?

I compared them for few days. Couldnt hear any difference after rather excessive A/B testing. I am sensitive enough to hear subtle differences between copper / silverplated and silver cables, I even do rather weird things like buying upgraded xlr interconnect cables, but nope no difference between KTE and Level 2 May to my ear. Same with "Level 1" and KTE Bliss.

 

[Tubewin]

Puritan is a very nonagressive power conditioner with respect to adverse effects on current delivery. It makes Bliss and May sound noticeably better, though they sound good out of the wall too.

Completely agree. Tim from Holo actually recommended the Puritan PSM156, by name no less, to help lower the hum noise from the Holo may kte. His direct quote was, "What helped the most was adding the puritan psm156".

 

[Superunknown2]

I compared them for few days. Couldnt hear any difference after rather excessive A/B testing. I am sensitive enough to hear subtle differences between copper / silverplated and silver cables, I even do rather weird things like buying upgraded xlr interconnect cables, but nope no difference between KTE and Level 2 May to my ear. Same with "Level 1" and KTE Bliss.

I was just discussing this on the Spring 3 thread. Most concede that on the Spring 3 (and May) these differences don't really matter, but they say the Spring 3 KTE (and L2/KTE May) has a USB upgrade that justifies the $900 difference. But that also seems to be wrong. They keep saying the standard USB isn't galvanically isolated, though it is. You can look at pictures of the standard USB and see the physical gap that makes it galvanically isolated. I was just talking to the guy behind ConvinceMeAudio and even he incorrectly thought the standard USB was not galvanically isolated. The only rationale to justify this $900 difference between the Spring 3 L1 and KTE is a Titanis 2.0 chip on the upgraded USB card that does some overclocking, and that is sold in a separate USB module for $78. I suspect these upgrades are where much of the profit is made, and they are generally superfluous. Maybe I am wrong, but unless money is no object, or you have a specific use case (such as the need for a remote control if you add the preamp to the Spring 3), the base models are probably the best for most, with negligible sound differences. People speak of "peace of mind" to justify getting the KTE, though I don't know what peace of mind you are supposed to get from spending money superfluously. They also speak of resale value, but people who are going to buy a used amp are already conceding that they are not going to be getting the latest upgrades. The ultimate reason for most going with the KTE seems to be that this is just what sensible people are supposed to do, as none can articulate a more substantive rationale.

 

[incredulousity]

The main differences are the upgraded transformer, upgraded capacitors, silver wiring in the signal path, and the Titanis USB. Plus the Fox logo! Current version of Titanis USB is 2.1, which I bought for $124 shipped, when I needed it for compatibility on my AMD-based PC.

 

[Tubewin]

I was just discussing this on the Spring 3 thread. Most concede that on the Spring 3 (and May) these differences don't really matter, but they say the Spring 3 KTE (and L2/KTE May) has a USB upgrade that justifies the $900 difference. But that also seems to be snake oil. They keep saying the standard USB isn't galvanically isolated, though it is. You can look at pictures of the standard USB and see the physical gap that makes it galvanically isolated. I was just talking to the guy behind ConvinceMeAudio and even he incorrectly thought the standard USB was not galvanically isolated. The only rationale to justify this $900 difference between the Spring 3 L1 and KTE is a Titanis 2.0 chip on the "upgraded" USB card that does some overclocking, and that is sold in a separate USB module for $78. I suspect these "upgrades" are where much of the profit is made, and they are generally superfluous. Maybe I am wrong, but unless money is no object, or you have a specific use case (such as the need for a remote control if you add the preamp to the Spring 3), the base models are probably the best for most, with negligible sound differences. People speak of "peace of mind" to justify getting the KTE, though I don't know what peace of mind you are supposed to get from being ripped off. They also speak of resale value, but people who are going to buy a used amp are already conceding that they are not going to be getting the latest upgrades. The ultimate reason for most going with the KTE seems to be group think, as none can articulate a substanive rationale.

Judging by the derogatory way you are speaking about Holo, why are you here? You say they're ripping people off, you call their practices "snake oil", you don't trust buying stuff from China, so... like... what more can someone say to convince you of something you don't want to be convinced of? Stick with whatever brand you're using now. It doesn't seem your questions are backed by genuine curiosity for the product itself, but rather a means to attack and tarnish the company. So again, what's the point of your inquiries, when it seems you don't want your mind changed to begin with?

 

[Superunknown2]

Judging by the derogatory way you are speaking about Holo, why are you here? You say they're ripping people off, you call their practices "snake oil", you don't trust buying stuff from China, so... like... what more can someone to say to convince you of something you don't want to be convinced of? Stick with whatever brand you're using now. It doesn't seem your questions are backed by genuine curiosity for the product itself, but rather a means to attack and tarnish the company. So again, what's the point of your inquiries, when it seems you don't want your mind changed to begin with?

Hmmm seems I touched a nerve. Tell me then what did I say that is factually incorrect? Many who haven't actually bought a unit yet don't want to waste money on useless features, even if it is too late for those who have already bought a unit. The point of my inquiries is that I am interested in buying Holo products, but want to buy the right one, and not waste money on useless "upgrades". I suspect there are many others who won't buy the KTE because of the cost, but would buy a lower level unit, but then they come here or elsewhere and the message they get is that only foolish people buy the non KTE version, so they buy nothing. By pushing everyone to buy the KTE, many just won't buy anything.

 

[Tubewin]

Hmmm seems I touched a nerve. Tell me then what did I say that is factually incorrect?

Factual? Those are your opinions. You still have not answered my question. What's the point of your inquiries, when it seems you don't want your mind changed to begin with?

 

[Superunknown2]

Factual? Those are your opinions. You still have not answered my question. What's the point of your inquiries, when it seems you don't want your mind changed to begin with?

No answer to my question on what I said that is factually incorrect? Didn't read what I said on what the point is in my inquires? Unfortunate.

 

[Tubewin]

Hmmm seems I touched a nerve. Tell me then what did I say that is factually incorrect? Many who haven't actually bought a unit yet don't want to waste money on useless features, even if it is too late for those who have already bought a unit. The point of my inquiries is that I am interested in buying Holo products, but want to buy the right one, and not waste money on useless "upgrades". I suspect there are many others who won't buy the KTE because of the cost, but would buy a lower level unit, but then they come here or elsewhere and the message they get is that only foolish people buy the non KTE version, so they buy nothing. By pushing everyone to buy the KTE, many just won't buy anything.

That second part of your response is reasonable, but why slander the company? You may not want the kte versions of their products, for whatever reason, that's your business, but to say a company is ripping people off and/or selling snake oil is another thing entirely.

 

[Superunknown2]

That second part of your response is reasonable, but why slander the company? You may not want the kte versions of their products, for whatever reason, that's your business, but to say a company is ripping people off and/or selling snake oil is another thing entirely.

I didn't slander them, and I think nothing negative of them. I wouldn't give them thousands of dollars if I didn't think they were an excellent company. I think their base models are probably the best that exist, and that their upgraded models probably are a bit better. I am trying to figure out if the upgraded models are worth the extra money compared to the base models. I was not criticizing their pricing or upgrade levels, I was criticizing the rationale I have seen given over and over on these headfi threads. Since there is a lot of money involved, I need a better rationale than "peace of mind" or speculations about resale value, which is largely what I get on these headfi threads. That so many so confidently assert false views about something like the standard USB board in the Spring 3 not being galvanically isolated makes me doubt much of what is said on these headfi threads, and yet this is the best source of information on these products outside of a few reviews elsewhere. The general consensus on these headfi threads is if you go for a non KTE version, you are wasting your money, probably aren't very smart, and would be better off not buying a Holo product at all. That is what I am criticizing, since the rationales given on these headfi threads are so often so superfolous. I am interested in buying either base level or KTE level holo products, and want to know after I buy it that I bought the right product, and didn't overpay for superflous upgrades or leave on the table performance worth the extra cost. And all the districtions on these headfi threads make that much more difficult.

 

[BrainSalat]

Sorry but only the Fox logo worth the extra $900 .

 

[Superunknown2]

Sorry but only the Fox logo worth the extra $900 .

I am leaning more towards base models, and, no joke, loosing the fox logo is probably the upgrade loss I am most regretting. The entire unit looks sharper with it.

 

[Tubewin]

I didn't slander them, and I think nothing negative of them. I wouldn't give them thousands of dollars if I didn't think they were an excellent company. I think their base models are probably the best that exist, and that their upgraded models probably are a bit better. I am trying to figure out if the upgraded models are worth the extra money compared to the base models. I was not criticizing their pricing or upgrade levels, I was criticizing the rationale I have seen given over and over on these headfi threads. Since there is a lot of money involved, I need a better rationale than "peace of mind" or speculations about resale value, which is largely what I get on these headfi threads. That so many so confidently assert false views about something like the standard USB board in the Spring 3 not being galvanically isolated makes me doubt much of what is said on these headfi threads, and yet this is the best source of information on these products outside of a few reviews elsewhere. The general consensus on these headfi threads is if you go for a non KTE version, you are wasting your money, probably aren't very smart, and would be better off not buying a Holo product at all. That is what I am criticizing, since the rationales given on these headfi threads are so often so superfolous. I am interested in buying either base level or KTE level holo products, and want to know after I buy it that I bought the right product, and didn't overpay for superflous upgrades or leave on the table performance worth the extra cost. And all the districtions on these headfi threads make that much more difficult.

I have never seen anyone being shamed for going with their level 1 or 2 configurations of their products. But that aside, what you are proposing here is fair, diminishing returns, differences in sound quality between models, how others perceive value, all reasonable metrics in whether you should spend more or less money on a product.

 

[kingoftown1]

Imo it's nice to have options that appeal to multiple budgets and beliefs. If you don't think differences in wiring, caps, or digital implementation matter, save a few dollars and buy level 1. If you do think they make a difference, you get the option of KTE. It's not that scandalous or complicated.


Fwiw, I have a level 2 spring 3, upgraded the holo caps to vcaps myself, and the difference was easily audible.