[EightyOne]

Didn't expect a debate to start over this topic. But, it's kind of odd for anyone to say that I just "got used" to the sound. It was only one day of letting the music play, and I didn't even have the headphones on my head the entire time. I just listened to a lot of songs with heavy bass for a few hours, noticed the slight warble, got sick of it, put it in the sock drawer, came back the next day, and it was all smoothed out. I'm a big skeptic of all things "audiophile" myself; so, if anyone thinks it's all in my head, I can only laugh.

 

[imported_Matt_Carter]

I mean how can someone not "BELIEVE" in burn-in, when it’s so blatantly obvious with every dynamic headphone and speaker out there…? Then how can that same person then consider himself an audiophile, and have the nerve to come here preaching out there ass?

Some people, I tells ya..

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

I'm not sure there is any logic in a "burn-in doesn't exist" argument.

The point from every reasonable critic's POV that I've read is not that there's nothing that could theoretically change over time, but rather that those changes could not be large enough within the tolerances of a headphone's driver to become audible.

Add to that the fact that there isn't one single person who has been able to detect these differences when they didn't know which pair they were listening to and the argument ("burn in" is "real") becomes very weak.

Now cue a couple more people to chime in that they didn't like headphone X at first, then thought the sound got dramatically better over time so that "proves" to them that "burn in" is real...

PS: Something else that works against the reality of "burn in" (at least in my mind) is the fact that not one single phone has EVER gotten worse with break in. I would think if there were indeed these dramatic changes taking place in the driver's materials that at least occasionally they would sound better to someone before those changes took place. Does this not strike anyone else as odd?

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Look at CPU's, with my Barton 2500 straight outa the box couldn't go above 3200 on default voltage, and became unstable after upping voltage. And now I can get to 2.7GHZ+ AFTER BURN-IN.

Agreed (and very common), but it's not the CPU that's "burning in"- it's the thermal paste/pad.

Yeah, my grilled-cheese sandwich toasts more evenly in the pan once the butter "burns in", too...

Quote:

I mean how can someone not "BELIEVE" in burn-in, when it’s so blatantly obvious with every headphone and speaker out there…? Then how can that same person then consider himself an audiophile, and have the nerve to come here preaching out there ass?

Whoa- who's preaching again? Think about that.

As it stands right now, there is no evidence for "burn in". Someone taking the stance that they can't accept something without evidence is not preaching- it's actually the only reasonable conclusion.

 

[imported_Matt_Carter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac Agreed (and very common), but it's not the CPU that's "burning in"- it's the thermal paste/pad.

Aaa no.. wrong. I've replaced 3 heat syncs since owning the 2500, and no I didn't have to wait for the thermal compound to settle to start OCing again.

 

[swmtnbiker]

This is really simple folks - if "burn-in" is producing changes in cables/headphones/amps/sources/etc. that can be detected by the human ear, THEN THOSE CHANGES ARE MEASURABLE. So why don't we have hard data that conclusively proves the phenomemon? This endless debate could be put to rest so easily, but for some reason it's never been done. The "evidence" is always anecdotal. Why is that? And why are the sonic changes attributed to "burn-in" POSITIVE 99.9% of the time? It's all psychological voodoo I tell ya - VOO-DOO.

 

[Alu]

I'm pretty sure that there is such a thing as speaker burn-in, but I haven't really noticed something like headphone burn-in yet, even with the K701, and it is well over 400 hours. Sure, I have noticed a slightly more apparent bass, but I *think* that this is due to me getting used to it, as I used it all the time.
The salesperson of my speakers told me to use them for a month or so before they'd use their full potential, he spoke about driver burn-in of course.

There has been a nice discussion on audioholics about speaker and headphone burn-in AFAIR.

 

[lmilhan]

Although I don't have any scientific ideas as to how to prove or disprove burn-in, out of curiosity I will be contacting Grado labs with the following questions:

1) Does Grado labs agree (or disagree) that break-in (also known as burn-in) time is required in order to reach optimal performance with Grado headphones?

2) If the answer for question 1 is an 'agree', what is the recommended break-in time (in hours) for a set of Grado headphones.

3) Finally, will the sound characteristics of a Grado headphone change in any perceptable way at the end of the break-in period?

Not at all scientific I know, but it would be very interesting to me to see what they have to say on the matter. Of corse if they respond with an 'agree', I'm not sure I would be willing to insult them by asking them to 'prove it' to me.


Perhaps I will fire off similar questions to other headphone manufacturers for giggles.

If/when I get the answers, I will report back with my findings.

 

[swmtnbiker]

I'm not suggesting that Grado labs would be dishonest, but you must be aware of the fact that for manufacturers of audio equipment burn-in is a great marketing tool. People are much less likely to return a product the longer they have it in their possession. If burn-in is indeed a pyscho-acoustic phenomenon, then the longer they listen to a headphone the more likely they are to "perceive" improvements and decide to keep it. The skeptic in me marvels at how convenient it would be for audio product companies to quote "burn-in" requirements of 300+ hours.

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

Aaa no.. wrong. I've replaced 3 heat syncs since owning the 2500, and no I didn't have to wait for the thermal compound to settle to start OCing again.

How long you been working with computers? The initial application and seating of the thermal interface fills in the uber-tiny spaces on the surface of the CPU. When you changed heatsinks, those spaces were still filled in no matter how diligent you were trying to clean the old material off (it's permanent).

This isn't new information.

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

The salesperson of my speakers told me to use them for a month or so before they'd use their full potential, he spoke about driver burn-in of course.

[edit- dpippel beat me to all this and I just hadn't read down far enough]

Beware the recommendations of those with a vested interest (let me guess- the return policy ended after 30 days???...

).

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

Although I don't have any scientific ideas as to how to prove or disprove burn-in...

Minor sidenote (again): don't worry about disproving it. There is only proof or lack of proof here.

Quote:

Not at all scientific I know, but it would be very interesting to me to see what they have to say on the matter. Of corse if they respond with an 'agree', I'm not sure I would be willing to insult them by asking them to 'prove it' to me.

[edit- dpippel beat me to all this and I just hadn't read down far enough]

See my note above about those with a vested interest. If they convince you to keep them longer, the chances go up that you'll like them.

Although, maybe they can provide some studies they conducted. It'd be dead easy for them.

 

[MD1032]

My experience so far with burn-in is nothing I've been able to measure, of course, but I'm convinced it makes a difference. Take my HF-1's. When I first got them and threw them on, they didn't impress me that much. Sure, it was better than the SR-80's, but the bass almost seemed lacking. By the end of the time I was done comparing them and using them (about a week), believe it or not, the HF-1's had more bass with the bowl pads than the SR-80's had with the flat pads. This difference can't be accounted for by anything but break-in, and I remember hearing a similar effect when I first got the SR-80's - things were a little thin at first, then filled in later.

 

[Alu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac Beware the recommendations of those with a vested interest (let me guess- the return policy ended after 30 days???... ).

This store doesn't have such a return policy afaik. www.audiophile.lu
I tested them in a seperate room with the desired amplification and source, and my own music of course; I was pretty decided alright. Also heard them before as well.
I always had the impression that speaker break-in was scientifically proven, also because of the larger size of the drivers.

 

[swmtnbiker]

"Impressions", "I believe", "it must be true", etc., etc.

Until someone produces hard data this debate will continue to be as pointless as an atheist and a Christian debating the existence of God.

 

[rodbac]

Told you guys the anecdotes would pile up as if something changes with them...