[JadeEast]

Hip hop is limiting and constrained. all musical styles are constrained by boundaries. Artists reacting to the boundaries are where things become creative. If one pushes the constraints too far the form gets broken and it becomes something else. 
 
 
Looking to Hip-hop to "prove itself" by the criteria of some other musical form or cultural position is a category error. Listening to Country and Western and expecting to find Indian Raggas would be pointless.
 
 

 

[limpidglitch]

Well put.
I was thinking about something similar, but had problems wording it.
Maybe "listening to bop while thinking swing" in this case? Are you a swing man, Erik?
 
I dig you Erik, I really do, but you've properly baffled me this time.
Surely you must be aware of the unreasonability of what you are saying.
I mean, complaining that there aren't enough singing in hip-hop?
Have you even listened to half the examples given to you in this thread, with a 'fresh' ear that is?

 

[hybrid35]

If ease of access is a problem, I will create a youtube playlist of all the hip hop I and other's think are considerably "good" hip hop. I will include ATCQ, Eminem, Tupac, Nujabes, The Roots, Atmosphere, DJ Shadow, Madlib/J Dilla, Mos Def, Del Tha Funky Homosapien, Souls of Mischief, Usher/Neyo (even they're more RnB), Immortal Technique, Andre 3000, Lupe Fiasco, Wutang Clan, Common, Black Thought, Nas, Pete Rock, CL Smooth, Blue Scholars, and Dead Prez: all of which you obviously have not fully critiqued. If you can get through all of these songs and point to me exactly where they lack all of the things you have decided to be good music (including vocal talent, musical talent, or no use of a multitude of cliche's), then I will go as far to say that I will stop listening to Hip Hop because you have fully convinced me this is a talentless genre.
 
But if you aren't too lazy, please look up the songs yourself on youtube. Quality might not be head-fi material, but it gets the point across.
 
And this stuff didn't "lose" its potential 20 years ago, it's just move mostly to underground music and have been rarely played on the radio. Mainstream is mostly agenda, marketing and public relations driven music, so while some of it is good and tested, it does not fully represent the genre at all.

 

[Todd R]

What's the difference between rap & hip hop anyway?

 

[Ynoskire]

Rap is a style of singing, well, the thing rappers do. Hip hop is the name of the genre.

 

[limpidglitch]

Quote:

If ease of access is a problem, I will create a youtube playlist of all the hip hop I and other's think are considerably "good" hip hop. I will include ATCQ, Eminem, Tupac, Nujabes, The Roots, Atmosphere, DJ Shadow, Madlib/J Dilla, Mos Def, Del Tha Funky Homosapien, Souls of Mischief, Usher/Neyo (even they're more RnB), Immortal Technique, Andre 3000, Lupe Fiasco, Wutang Clan, Common, Black Thought, Nas, Pete Rock, CL Smooth, Blue Scholars, and Dead Prez: all of which you obviously have not fully critiqued. If you can get through all of these songs and point to me exactly where they lack all of the things you have decided to be good music (including vocal talent, musical talent, or no use of a multitude of cliche's), then I will go as far to say that I will stop listening to Hip Hop because you have fully convinced me this is a talentless genre.
 
But if you aren't too lazy, please look up the songs yourself on youtube. Quality might not be head-fi material, but it gets the point across.
 
And this stuff didn't "lose" its potential 20 years ago, it's just move mostly to underground music and have been rarely played on the radio. Mainstream is mostly agenda, marketing and public relations driven music, so while some of it is good and tested, it does not fully represent the genre at all.

Damn right.
Maybe the old man would appreciate Guru's Jazzmatazz series. With live jazz enseble and all?
 
Oh and of course, the fabulous Bahamadia, representing the fair sex. 

 

[hybrid35]

Rap is a style of singing, well, the thing rappers do. Hip hop is the name of the genre.

 

Hip Hop is the entire genre. They usually categorize rap under hip hop as one of the four "tenets", which are DJing, MCing (rapping), grafitti, and break dancing. Some people include beatboxing in the newer generations of hip hop, but some don't look at it as a form of hip hop. More than a genre, hip hop is a culture formed initially in the east coast (developed through ska, dub and reggae). Things like the Zulu Nation, centered around the genre, have taken into developing the youth into a better generation instead of gangsters. Very history rich culture and genre, and definitely music that have moved not only people, but have moved entire societies.

 

[pow3rtr1p]

I honestly have to tell you, I may have found the best Hip Hop album ever. Check out "Jimmy the Lock" by NoCanDo. He's a Fresh Coast battle rapper who actually wrote a heck of an album, and I considered putting it in the "Flawless Albums" thread, but decided it would get overlooked there. Talking about boundaries, NoCanDo definitely pushes the genre to a new level, in my opinion, with this album. It really should be heard by every Hip Hop fan.
 
You can download it on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Jimmy-the-Lock/dp/B0035S3XKI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306422833&sr=8-1
 
And the entire thing is available to listen to on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9RU0TPpklQ

 

[hybrid35]

Quote:

I honestly have to tell you, I may have found the best Hip Hop album ever. Check out "Jimmy the Lock" by NoCanDo. He's a Fresh Coast battle rapper who actually wrote a heck of an album, and I considered putting it in the "Flawless Albums" thread, but decided it would get overlooked there. Talking about boundaries, NoCanDo definitely pushes the genre to a new level, in my opinion, with this album. It really should be heard by every Hip Hop fan.
 
You can download it on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Jimmy-the-Lock/dp/B0035S3XKI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306422833&sr=8-1
 
And the entire thing is available to listen to on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9RU0TPpklQ

Very nice, I actually talked with Nosajthing a couple days ago. He wasn't sure what he was playing (I asked because he was playing some crazy euphoric chillout downtempo glitch music, which I couldn't find on the internet), but he might have been just messing with some other people's music. But as with that piece from NoCanDo, his battle freestyle rapping shows through a little bit. You and other's on youtube say he's a lyrical genius, but he's a bit ADD with it too. Kind of all over the place instead of focusing on one subject, where some lyrics just don't connect with the song like an interjection. But then again, that might have been part of the song's point of his points "going hazy" and everything is static. Sounds very aggressive, Eminem style, with less of the immature yelling and more of an experienced facade. This track really confuses me, since piece by piece it is lyrically amazing, but put together it is exactly what he meant to do: make it hazy. I don't know if that is a legitimate excuse or not, but maybe that's where he's pushing his boundaries. I'll let it grow for a few first, it's not my go to style of Hip Hop.
 

 

[Ckaz]

[size=medium]

Guys, listen to the VS. Redux. It's a collabo album made by Macklemore & Ryan Lewis. Very, very impressive musicality by Ryan Lewis and refreshing subject matter by Macklemore who's rapping style sounds much more like a spoken word poetry then anything else. Check it out!
 

 
Really glad that this thread is still going. Some very interesting arguments (all of which are valid in their own respect) are continuing to pop up, though I'd be lying if I said I wasn't still having troubles agreeing with a single part of Erik's viewpoint 

 
​

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JadeEast /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Hip hop is limiting and constrained. all musical styles are constrained by boundaries. Artists reacting to the boundaries are where things become creative. If one pushes the constraints too far the form gets broken and it becomes something else. 
 
 
 
Looking to Hip-hop to "prove itself" by the criteria of some other musical form or cultural position is a category error. Listening to Country and Western and expecting to find Indian Raggas would be pointless.

 
Very, very into this btw. Well put.

 
Edit: It seems I quoted myself.. ignore the weird formatting

 

[falis]

Quote:

[size=medium]

Guys, listen to the VS. Redux. It's a collabo album made by Macklemore & Ryan Lewis. Very, very impressive musicality by Ryan Lewis and refreshing subject matter by Macklemore who's rapping style sounds much more like a spoken word poetry then anything else. Check it out!
 

 
Really glad that this thread is still going. Some very interesting arguments (all of which are valid in their own respect) are continuing to pop up, though I'd be lying if I said I wasn't still having troubles agreeing with a single part of Erik's viewpoint 

 
​

[/size]

 
Very, very into this btw. Well put.

 
Edit: It seems I quoted myself.. ignore the weird formatting

So this is one of very few hip-hop cuts I've liked - it is creative, intelligent, musical and even moving.  But I still find the sociocultural boundaries on it, and the rap style recitation really limited.  At least with this guy, you can reach back to Gil Scott-Heron and see the lineage.
 
[Edit: I wrote that before I heard this morning that GSH had died.  May he RIP - one of the true greats.]
 
- Ed

 

[Meshaboo]

THE ROOTS. That is all. They are ALL talented musicians: a guitarist, bassist, drummer, sousaphonist?, percussionist, keyboardist, and a long time ago they had a beat boxer. (I don't think the front man Black Thought is a musician though). MOST (97%) of their songs are 100% original, no samples or anything. Their drummer and co-founder Questlove played the drums since he was about 4 and can also play piano and I think bass. And of course the lyrics are original; the cliches are often used to get a point across. Cliches about drugs, sex, money, weed, and sex are the stupid, horrible, and IMHO moronic elements of hip hop. The Roots DO NOT rap about that stuff at all, except in very few songs and it happens within a split second. They formed in 1987 and are going to release their 13th album on December 6, 2011, which I am buying. Here are some of their songs in order from their first album to latest, and PLEASE listen through the whole song:
 
 
This is "Good Music" (literally) from their debut album "Organix" 1993. Yet again, musicianship, but you might disagree with the lyrical content. They were rapping about random things that happened throughout the day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mayRrlrcO8
 
This one is titled "Essaywhuman??!?!!?" from their 2nd album "Do You Want More??!!!??!" 1994 ...haha, this was recorded live and is a song displaying each member's musical talents. Black Thought is improvising/free styling every lyric and ... just listen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7__No9owGk
 
This is also from that same album, it's called "Mellow My Man". It DOES have various tempo changes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nozh5l13Auo
 
This is a BEAUTIFUL instrumental from The Roots on their second album "Illadelph Halflife" 1996. It's called "One Shine". And again, musicianship,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LXe7AB4qWM
 
"Episodes" is from the same album, and it's a song that reflects the evils that happen in their everyday life (yes it is a cliche, but better said than most artists). This is my favorite song by them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2H7abIyJJc&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL98DB3B2E6020F4A3
 
"You Got Me" is one of their most popular songs. From their album "Things Fall Apart" 1999. It is a love song and features Erykah Badu. I put the link to the live version of the song featuring Jill Scott. Skip to 1:19
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55NUqrrBccw
 
Here is a song they sampled from jazz trumpeter Al Hirt, called "Harlem Hendoo" The song is called "Stay Cool" and is on the album "The Tipping Point" 2004
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTT1R2WJ6nU
 
From their album "Game Theory" 2006, called "Clock With No Hands". A beautiful, meaningful song about regret. This is a live performance (they look nervous for some reason, hahaha):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYNQN-gfz4c
 
"Rising Up" feat. Chrissette Michelle and Wale from their album "Rising Down" 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WbJ9Yc0whc
 
One of their best songs, IMO, called "Dear God 2.0" feat Monsters of Folk, from the 2010 album "How I Got Over". Lyricism, musicianship, all that good stuff. Just look at the title.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqI6HivP2mI
 
This is a single from their latest album, "undun" called "Make My (feat. Big K.R.I.T.)" THIS IS AMAZING IMO. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQGhUnFnvS4
 
I hope you ALL gave them a listen. I can't make anyone like them, but I'm trying to help open people's minds. I'm 17 and appreciate all forms of music and musicians (not country really), from Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix, The Notorious B.I.G., Miles Davis, De La Soul, A Tribe Called Quest, Metallica, Pearl Jam, etc.  
 
 
 

 

[Angelbelow]

I'm probably biased by I dont find that much artistic integrity in mainstream hip hop (the stuff they play on radios, night clubs, most party settings). There's probably great musicianship that I'm not exposed to (or maybe not) so I'm not going to jump to conclusions on the entire genre but the stuff that's commonly played turns me off to digging deeper.
 

 
 

 

[sexiewasd]

I'm really not a fan of rap as a singing style but every now and then I get surprised by it, usually when it sneaks into the genre that I do listen to, but it's almost never anything mainstream.  I think it's ignorant to write off an entire genre as broad as hip hop and to say there isn't talent or that it's not real music.
 
Lately it's this, and before it atmosphere.

 

[Xaverian]

My mom is a speech-language pathologist (she works with stutterers, deaf kids, kids with speaking disabilities, adults with brain damage, etc) and one day as I was walking around blaring eminem (not my usual genre btw, I'm more of a classical guy) she stopped me and asked to have a listen. I expected her to cringe a the lyrics but was surprised when she smiled and said she liked it. Shocked, I asked her why. "I like his syntax" she replied. I had only a vague idea of what she meant so she pulled out her laptop and a mic, and opened up some program. She then began dissecting the way that he spoke and the measuring of his phrases. I have to say that that aspect of hip hop is really interesting! Still, hip hop as a genre is saturated with terrible music, cliché, and materialism.