High end (IEM) cable thread: impressions, pics, comparisons and reviews.
Mar 20, 2017 at 11:56 AM Post #556 of 4,183
   
I should apologise, I forgot to add the disclaimer: reader discretion advised, if you already own or are interested in the 2-wire you might not want to read this. :p


Nah, dont. The 1960 is going onto my DITA dream. That holographic presentation you described, is something I can personally attest to, having already heard first hand how the 4 wire sounds. But, your review was what solidifed my decision to go ahead with the purchase. 

the 1960 will complement the Dream and enhance it so well in a way no other wires, in my humble opinion, can match. Cant wait for my 1960 to arrive, and slap it onto my Dream. 
 
Mar 20, 2017 at 12:25 PM Post #557 of 4,183
 
Nah, dont. The 1960 is going onto my DITA dream. That holographic presentation you described, is something I can personally attest to, having already heard first hand how the 4 wire sounds. But, your review was what solidifed my decision to go ahead with the purchase. 

the 1960 will complement the Dream and enhance it so well in a way no other wires, in my humble opinion, can match. Cant wait for my 1960 to arrive, and slap it onto my Dream. 


The Dream + 4-wire is a very good combo. Its stage is a good deal airer, it's less bassy but still impactful, and it is of course significantly more transparent overall. Also, its vocal presentation is more natural, clearer at least.
 
Mar 20, 2017 at 3:35 PM Post #558 of 4,183
Quote:
  Hello Chris. I've had the 2-wire for about 3-4 weeks, so I tested it with quite a few iems. Because it is a predominantly characterised by a warmer tone, I initially had a natural inclination to test its synergy with brighter iems. So I tested it with NT6pro, Samba, Galaxy, but of course also more midcentric iems like Zeus or Prelude, and a few that are in between like S-EM9 and W900.
 
For understanding some basic principles of its synergy when it comes to harshness/smoothness, it is important to understand that the 2-wire creates its clarity by boosting the upper midrange rather than the treble. If we compare the 2-wire to the plusSound GPC; the GPC is also warm in tone and smooth, but it has a more linear treble which is not necessarily attenuated. So the 2-wire is warmer than the GPC, but accordingly, the GPC's tone is more accurate as it relatively closer to neutral. So generally, the 2-wire is smoother if you are looking to attenuate the treble with a brighter pairing. However, when paired with iems that already boost the clarity in their signature by an upper midrange peak like Samba or Galaxy, the GPC will actually be smoother than the 2-wire.
 
The 4-wire I only received last week, so I tested it with less iems because I only needed to add on the difference as I had already written the first part of the review, and was familiar with the basic sound. As I repeatedly told Calvin, I was shocked to hear the difference was so big between the two cables. They share some basic principles, but the 4-wires tone and technical ability is very different. An analogy would be like listening to two iems from a manufacturer that has a strong house sound, like EE Athena and Zeus-XIV. In this case, both share a similar midcentric tuning with moderate sparkle, but Zeus' midrange is different and its resolution and transparency are of course superior (note: this is just an analogy, I've never actually heard Athena).
 
The 2-wire's main advantage is that it is overall smoother than the 4-wire, both the (lower) midrange and treble. The 4-wire has significantly more clarity due to its transparency and treble sparkle, but the sound comes through very 'pure', there's no safety veil so to speak. As we all know, there are a lot of differences between people's preferences and sensitivities. My preference is as follows: tonal accuracy, and highly technical sound. When it comes to sensitivity, I am extremely fortunate that I have very little problems with harshness or brightness.  
 
So to make this long story short, I personally have a strong preference for the 4-wire. But, my point is that this is personal preference; because there are cases where someone or some pairing will be better with the 2-wire, as Alex for instance has also pointed out (he is more sensitive than I am).
 
I should apologise, I forgot to add the disclaimer: reader discretion advised, if you already own or are interested in the 2-wire you might not want to read this. :p

That makes me wanna have both 2,4 wires.
 
Mar 22, 2017 at 10:29 AM Post #559 of 4,183

A primer on high-end cables

 
Introduction
 
This article can be viewed as a brief discussion on the performance of cables throughout different tiers. This is just to provide a rough picture of the world of high-end upgrade cables, based on my experience. I can imagine that there’s a healthy skepticism about the actual increase in performance when you move up higher in quality. And I’m not referring to cable skeptics – I have no interest in ‘converting’ anyone, or starting a cable discussion. My goal is to provide a bit of information for those already interested. As I’ve been a cable enthusiast for a couple of years now, I’ve been able to experience a relatively large number of upgrade cables (if I had to guess it would be somewhere between 40 – 50).
 
I can look back at what I’ve experienced while gradually moving up through the world of cables, while also steadily learning to understand different components of analyzing sound. I too was very skeptic that cables could improve – and consistently remained skeptical, even though I gradually experienced an improvement at different price points. The problem is that it is very hard to imagine something beyond your own experience (Plato’s Cave, anyone?).
 
Before I start, I would like to point out that I’m not advocating that anyone should buy a high-end cable. I find it regrettable that cables are incredibly expensive, and that the industry has taken a turn to the worse when it comes to increasing prices. I have been fortunate to receive samples on a few occasions, but in the majority of cases I paid for them myself, so I am very much in touch with this issue. However, as I will argue in a bit I don’t believe this is an issue specific to cables; rather, the increasing price you need to pay for an improvement in performance is very similar if not identical to that of iems.
 
Do upgrade cables really work?
 
There’s a very wide variety of cables in different price ranges available, with most ranging up from $100 up to $2500 at least, and some even further. But, there’s still very little information on the general performance of cables, and especially how this steadily increases throughout different price ranges. This is of course can largely be attributed to the lingering skepticism throughout the West towards cables. The majority of people in the US and Europe do not believe in cables, which is reflected in sites where we come to meet such as Head-Fi.org. So it requires a big leap of faith to lay down $300 or more, especially since there are almost no places to demo cables – and understandably so. So I imagine that even when people tentatively want to try a cable but are naturally still hesitant, they either go for a $100 cable or just switch stock cables to experiment. Consequentially, they come to the conclusion that they just wasted their precious earned money since they can’t hear a difference. I’ll tell you now – even for trained ears it is extremely difficult to analyze and compare cheap cables. Due to the quality of the material, the extension is not very good so notes are more fuzzy and harder to compare, plus in most cases manufacturers use very similar copper or SPC wires.
 
Our world view is determined by the culture we live in, and shaped by the people around us. In Eastern Asia, the situation is reversed. If you’d take a look at Asian fora such as andaudio.com or erji.net, the general consensus is that cables do play a role in determining aspects of the signature or performance, and there’s little debate on the issue. Accordingly, more people find it worthwhile to invest in upgrade cables. The difference can at least partially be explained by the fact that cities like Tokyo, Hong Kong and Singapore have evolved into major audio hotspots, where you can extensively demo every piece of equipment including cables. However, while speculative, we can also take the characteristics of the type of music people listen to in different cultures into account, such as range, pitch, flow and rhythm (Born & Hesmondhalgh, 2000), as well as innate biological and cultural differences that shape our hearing, such as that Asian voices tend have a slightly higher pitch and different rhythm (e.g. Brunelle & Kirby, 2016; Ohara, 1999). If we consider that one of the most fundamental improvements of a high-end cable is its effect on the highest frequencies due to properties of the wires (the highest frequencies roll of strongest with lower quality), the connection with a sensitivity towards higher pitch is again speculative, but not unthinkable.
 
 
 
 
Increasing performance of iems
 
The general concept of diminishing returns is well-known. When it comes to iems, you can get a great sounding iem for $300; some examples are the Dunu DN2000j or Oriveti Primacy. These iems are a good deal better than their $100 entry level counterparts. When you experience such an iem for the first time, it’s hard to imagine you’re missing something, especially after already witnessing such an improvement from the lower segment. The bass, mids, and treble are all there, the stage is large enough for the instrument positioning, and the presentation as a whole feels fairly detailed. Nevertheless, when you move up to a $1000 iem, the difference can feel quite significant. The stage is larger, the midrange might have more body, and the level of detail again improves. The whole image gains in clarity, often feeling like a ‘veil has been removed’. Yet, when you move on to a TOTL $1600 ciem, there’s usually no doubt there’s again a significant improvement: the depth of the stage might result in a more effortless separation, and the resolution relies on its treble extension rather than the brightness of the signature, so the tone might be more natural, while the presentation is nevertheless more detailed (I wrote a piece about the difference between $300 and $1600 iem a while back on Headfonics).
 
Increasing performance of cables
 
While it’s hard to imagine, similar incremental improvements can more or less be experiences with cables. Admittedly, while the cost for improvement might be a $100 in the lower segment, it rapidly climes with steps of $500 shortly after – just as we’ve seen with iems.
 
<$350
You can get a solid cable for roughly $150-$200. Some examples are the Effect Audio Ares II or PWaudio’s no 5. Depending on the listener, the effects might vary from negligible, to having a nice moderate effect to polish up an iem’s signature, by adding a bit of warmth or extension for example. Depending on the listener, the difference might be considered around 5%-10% (just as a rough estimation to paint a picture). But when you arrive at a quality $350 silver cable, the effect should be more clearly noticeable, while still remaining affordable. The extension will be slightly better, possible resulting in better transparency, resolution, or airiness. Sometimes silver cables might be brighter, resulting in more apparent clarity. We might think of this effect as contributing to 20% of the sound. This range is what I would consider the cable equivalent of an iem like the DN2000j or Primacy. Significantly better than a $150 cable, but after this point the price to increase its performance will start to steeply rise. Excellent value.
 
$700 - $1000
Moving up the area of $700 - $1000 cables, the price range I consider ‘TOTL’ for cables. Similar to $1600 TOTL ciems, there’s a wide range of cables that each have their own signature, performance, as well as ergonomics. They’re all very different, but generally should have similar performance when all aspects are averaged together. Much like ciems, some focus on tone, resolution, stage, or certain aspects of the signature (bass, mids or treble). And it’s almost always pick 2 or so – you can’t have it all. When we move into this range, we’ve made a fairly big leap in price compared to a quality silver cable – $500 or more. But we’ve also made a significant jump in quality. The cable’s unique signature starts to play a more prominent role in the sound. For me personally, a cable in this range will determine something in the order of 25-30% of the sound.
 
In this case, the listener’s personal preference and taste of music might become a better indicator than the specific iem with which it is paired. For instance, when I want to listen to either pop, rock or electronic music, the cable pairing is more important for me than the iem; I have favorite cables for pop or electronic music, and can use those cables with any iem – a brighter iem like NT6pro or S-EM9, but also a warmer midcentric iem like Zeus-XIV or Prelude.
 
Some examples of different signatures and performance in this range are Effect Audio’s Leonidas, which has a very uncolored signature which a punchy bass as special feature, as well as a nice clean stage and good transparency and resolution. It’s a precise and technical sound, while its powerful low end gives it something extra – a cable I like for fast electronic music. Labkable’s Samurai III shares some general similarities, as both have an airy stage, and a fairly neutral but transparent signature. While the Samurai’s low end is not as powerful, it has a nice coloration in the upper midrange that gives some extra sparkle, as well as a slightly warmer midrange. The Rhapsodio Golden is a very unique cable, but hard to recommend because of its specific sound and stiff ergonomics. Due to its enhanced mid- and upper bass, it creates particularly thick notes and a full sound, although its stage isn’t very airy. The warmth from the low end is countered by a brighter upper midrange and treble. Upper midrange notes are thick and really pop out, making it highly engaging and perfect for synthetic-based melodies, even though its resolution and imaging is not very impressive – this is the (original) K10 of cables when it comes to sound. Though different than the Samurai III, both are favorites for pop or melodious electronic music. The recently discussed PWaudio 1960 2-wire is unique due to its dark, warm, but smooth and resolving presentation. There’s a certain sensuality to its presentation that makes it involving for vocals, while being one of the most suitable to soften harsher treble. And then there’s the plusSound Gold-Plated Copper 8-braid, that performs admirably when it comes to stage airiness, resolution and transparency, but excels when it comes to its tonality – this remains one of my favorite cables for daily use. Due to its smooth, natural and accurate tone, suited for most instrument- or vocal-based music.
 
 
$1300
After hearing quality cables in the ‘top tier’, is the difference in this next range still discernible? I can only refer to the two cables I own(ed), but the answer is yes. A year ago I decided to randomly sell a bunch of stuff to invest in a few high-end cables for a shootout I was planning for Headfonics. After receiving the first few, I was impressed with the resolution of the Wagnus Frosty Sheep and Rhapsodio Copper Wizard 8-braid (both $1000). But when I heard the SilverFi IEM-R2, I immediately recognized this was a cable that took sound to a next level. Although its midrange was pretty forward and warm, it easily matched the resolution and transparency of the other two, while adding a level of naturalness that could not be compared. With its natural tone and forward midrange, this was a specialist for male vocals, and a generally very romantic sound - a signature resembling the upcoming Warbler Prelude. While I’d be hesitant to ever call Labkable’s Pandora ‘natural’ due to its reference sound, its resolution and transparency easily bests the lower tier, while adding both an engaging, punchy bass, as well as wide and deep holographic stage. The Jomo Samba of upgrade cables. Due to its brighter than neutral tone, high level of precision, and punchy bass, one of my favorites for electronic music.
 
$2000
Paying 2K for an iem is an extraordinary amount, something we’ve only started to see since about a year – let alone for a cable. This is a shocking statement to make, but I would easily state that the 2 2K cables I have had a pleasure to listen to, are both a clear, and by objective audiophile standards significant, step up from any cable below. In both cases, the ‘wow’ effect of these cables was strong and immediate – within a minute of listening I could hear this was something special.
 
PWaudio’s 1960 4-wire’s black background, treble sparkle, and high level of both transparency and resolution is a prominent feature with any pairing, and as such has a discerning role on the picture you’re seeing. A dark atmosphere filled with transparent detailed elements, regardless if the iem is innately midcentric or bright. The astonishing ability to bring minor details so apparently to the foreground. I’ve never been one to care much about the effects cables have on a stage, since they’re mostly relatively minor. Until I heard the SilverFi IEM-R4. This isn’t only the largest stage in its dimensions, it’s also one of the airiest. This is truly a holographic stage. ‘Neutral’ has many different interpretations, but the best one is when it refers to a balance between the frequencies, as well as an accurate tone. The SilverFi house sound has always been the very definition of naturalness.  A slightly warm but not too forward midrange, and a beautiful treble tone. Much like the 4-wire, its transparency and resolution cannot be compared to any cable below; so it doesn’t have to be bright to be one of the most detailed, relying on its stage and transparency. When you’re listening to an iem paired to the IEM-R4, the stage is mostly determined by the cable, as is the naturalness of the tone.
 
When you’re listening to one of these cables, the effect on an iem’s signature becomes so large, you’re almost listening to equal parts cable and iem. Accordingly, the difference between iems paired with such a cable becomes smaller, since a large portion of the sound is attributed to the cable. To picture what I mean with this, imagine two settings: one is a dark night in a rural area far from the city lights, with a starry night shining above you. There's a spotlight fixated on the singer performing for you. The other is a grassy meadow on a sunny spring day, with a forest in the background. In this analogy, the distance to the singer, and the pitch and power of their voice is the variance of the iem - but the setting I described is from the cable. 
 
Analyzing a cable’s signature
 
Cables are difficult to analyze, especially in the lower tiers. As the quality goes up, the differences become larger and easier discernible. You need to more of a pro to analyze a $100 cable compared to a $1000 one. But I’ll give some basic pointers based on the ‘@MikePortnoy philosophy’ handed down to me a few years back.
 
The key of breaking down a cable’s signature lies in understanding the relation between the (mid-)bass and the stage, since it determines a large deal of the presentation. So when you compare two cables, try to listen at how the different the bass is, and how it accordingly affects the stage. For instance, is the stage airier or even completely clean? Then most likely the mid- or upper- bass is attenuated. If a stage is still clean while having a nice bit of low end impact (like Leonidas or Pandora), there’s most likely an increase in control, and possibly in sub- or mid-bass but not upper-bass. Accordingly, it might take some of the warmth from the midrange tone. The size and warmth of midrange notes are strongly related to the bass presentation, so thicker notes are usually an indication of enhanced mid- or upper-bass. The clarity of the signature can be deduced by the relation between the quantity of bass combined with the prominence of the treble. Determining treble extension might require a bit more practice and understanding, but it can usually be determined from the definition of notes, as well as factors as transparency or the airiness surrounding notes and vocals.
 
 
 
 
Trying cables for the first time
 
Since people’s sensitivity for sound plays a role when it comes to cables, I would never recommend point blank paying a large amount for a high-end cable if you don’t have any experience with them. The effect of a more expensive cable will be easier noticeable than a cheaper cable, but even then there’s never a guarantee the result will be satisfactory at a personal level. Cables might be expensive, maybe even too expensive, but there is a fundamental reason why some cables are more expensive than others. Factors as the amount of wires (e.g. 4 vs. 8), or type of material (e.g. silver vs. copper), are negligible compared to the quality of the wires used. That’s why a basic 4-wire silver cable can range between $50 or $1000. Sadly enough, you can’t cut corners here. If a cable seems too good to be true (like a silver 8-braid costing new $200), it's safe to say it is. Instead, if you are interested in trying a high-end cable for the first time, I would strongly advise the following: try buying a second hand silver cable from a respected cable manufacturer (you can find many in the for-sale sections). That way you’re guaranteed a certain quality, and if you find it’s not for you, you can sell it at a minimal loss. Furthermore, you don’t need to be an expert with extremely sensitive hearing to hear the benefits of a cable. When I started out in this hobby a couple of years back, I didn’t know what a soundstage was, or even the difference between the upper midrange or treble. I happened to roll in the world of cables because a friend told me ‘I had to get one in case the stock cable broke’, but even at the time it was easily discernible that the silver cable (a Toxic Silver Widow) cleaned up the presentation and made it more detailed. Of course, it would take time and experience to understand the mechanisms, but the effect was there.
 
 
Citations
 
Born, G., & Hesmondhalgh, D. (2000). Western music and its others: Difference, representation, and appropriation in music. University of California Press.
 
Brunelle, M., & Kirby, J. (2016). Tone and phonation in Southeast Asian languages. Language and Linguistics Compass10(4), 191-207.
 
Ohara, Y. (1999). Performing gender through voice pitch: A cross-cultural analysis of Japanese and American English. In Wahrnehmung und Herstellung von Geschlecht (pp. 105-116). VS Verlag für Sozialwissenschaften.
 
Mar 22, 2017 at 11:14 AM Post #560 of 4,183
I would like to ask if you believe the burn in for cables?
 
Mar 22, 2017 at 11:17 AM Post #561 of 4,183
I would like to ask if you believe the burn in for cables?

I've always been open to the concept of burn in, even though I didn't really experience much differences in the past when it came to daps and cables. Recently, I hear clear differences. For instance, regardless of the price (a $300 Silver Widow or $2K IEM-R4) a silver cable becomes a lot smoother after 100-200 hours. Music Sanctuary takes the burn in process of the 1960 cable very seriously. They pre-burn the cable for 100 hours for customers as it determines its sound. (edit: not customary). But I haven't heard the before and after.
 
Mar 22, 2017 at 11:23 AM Post #562 of 4,183
I've always been open to the concept of burn in, even though I didn't really experience much differences in the past when it came to daps and cables. Recently, I hear clear differences. For instance, regardless of the price (a $300 Silver Widow or $2K IEM-R4) a silver cable becomes a lot smoother after 100-200 hours. Music Sanctuary takes the burn in process of the 1960 cable very seriously. They pre-burn the cable for 100 hours for customers as it determines its sound. But I haven't heard the before and after. 


I do experience a sound change for my Leonidas.
 
Mar 22, 2017 at 12:51 PM Post #563 of 4,183
I think the problem is that some people run "burn in" while continuously listening to their headphones.  From my personal experience, that's when a brain burn-in happens and the gradual changes in sound are less noticeable.  When you set your cable/IEM on a continuous playback loop for a week and check it once a day to take progress notes, you will hear a more noticeable difference.
 
Btw, on a different topic, anybody else excited/curious about @EffectAudio announced Heritage series "Lionheart" cable?  A hybrid design with GPC and SPC Litz braids in a thinner and more pliable Heritage series, announced here.  Though cable reviews typically don't make a front page, at least seeing an announcement on the front page was cool
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Mar 22, 2017 at 3:43 PM Post #564 of 4,183
My first argument: Sadly there are a lot of ambiguity when it comes to after market cable. I've been testing out cable seriously for the past 1 year and I do admit while there are difference between each brand I say with confidence that I don't like my chances passing blind test.
Going back to the ambiguity for example there are many companies who use UPOCC cables for their IEM design but the source of the cable they use is all the same. That is only three cable manufacturer has the licences to construction cable using that particular technology yes we see such large price variation. 
This leads me to my next argument: Sadly a lot of cable cost isn't in the raw material used but in fact in how the after market cable maker values its brand. As they all basically source their material from the same place and I have never seen proof where I know what I am paying for is justified. 

To me cable upgrade is the last thing that any IEM/headphone enthusiast should spend their money on. And whether the cable cost $50 or $5000 the price tag will never suggest it will work with your IEM. It is far more cheaper and more effective to buy a high quality OFC and invest in a good DAP or an EQ to achieve the effect  we are hoping to find in cable than in the cable themselves.
 
I am slowly figuring out how to evaluate cable, what my priorities to be. I think the first and most important part of any after market cable is to be durable and in terms of ergonomics flexible and comfortable with no microphonic. If an after market cannot do this there is no point to purchase them as they got the basic all wrong. 

I am still expecting to get more cable and test them, some I ask for loaner unit, rest all spend from my own money and all this for sake of coming to a conclusion and possibly not answering out of my own bias but so far the difference between the UPOCC from one brand which asks me to pay 250 USD and other which ask me to pay twice that beside its braiding geometry is absolutely nothing. Our portable audio hobby is young and what is ever younger is after market cable. There are far more after market cable makers than there are IEM makers. One would thing this would be great for the users as it creates a competition but sadly it hasn't
 
Having said that I will shortly write my own reviews of the less than a handful brands I have come across whose cable has pleased me. And when I say handful I should say less than five. 
 
Mar 22, 2017 at 8:22 PM Post #565 of 4,183
  My first argument: Sadly there are a lot of ambiguity when it comes to after market cable. I've been testing out cable seriously for the past 1 year and I do admit while there are difference between each brand I say with confidence that I don't like my chances passing blind test.
Going back to the ambiguity for example there are many companies who use UPOCC cables for their IEM design but the source of the cable they use is all the same. That is only three cable manufacturer has the licences to construction cable using that particular technology yes we see such large price variation. 
This leads me to my next argument: Sadly a lot of cable cost isn't in the raw material used but in fact in how the after market cable maker values its brand. As they all basically source their material from the same place and I have never seen proof where I know what I am paying for is justified. 

To me cable upgrade is the last thing that any IEM/headphone enthusiast should spend their money on. And whether the cable cost $50 or $5000 the price tag will never suggest it will work with your IEM. It is far more cheaper and more effective to buy a high quality OFC and invest in a good DAP or an EQ to achieve the effect  we are hoping to find in cable than in the cable themselves.
 
I am slowly figuring out how to evaluate cable, what my priorities to be. I think the first and most important part of any after market cable is to be durable and in terms of ergonomics flexible and comfortable with no microphonic. If an after market cannot do this there is no point to purchase them as they got the basic all wrong. 

I am still expecting to get more cable and test them, some I ask for loaner unit, rest all spend from my own money and all this for sake of coming to a conclusion and possibly not answering out of my own bias but so far the difference between the UPOCC from one brand which asks me to pay 250 USD and other which ask me to pay twice that beside its braiding geometry is absolutely nothing. Our portable audio hobby is young and what is ever younger is after market cable. There are far more after market cable makers than there are IEM makers. One would thing this would be great for the users as it creates a competition but sadly it hasn't
 
Having said that I will shortly write my own reviews of the less than a handful brands I have come across whose cable has pleased me. And when I say handful I should say less than five. 




I agree that much of cable prices rarely comes from the actual material costs, but how the manufacturer decides to price it, and if the market is willing to accept it. However, I have to disagree, that that makes the process as sinister as implied in your above post. We are in a strange hobby, where more often than not, the price to performance point rarely makes sense in any other context. Heck, I paid 6 k for my player after 2 months of consideration, yet, I still am trying to justify a reason strong enough to make me spend 3 k to upgrade the frame + fork on my bicycle. 

With that said, I would like to respectfully point out that audio priorities differ from person to person. I do agree that cables should be as ergonomic as possible, since this hobby is meant to be enjoyed while on the go. That said, the boundaries of what is 'portable' and 'not' differs, and some cables which you might deem excessively obstructive might be well within limits of another. To others, ergonomics might not even matter at all, since they pursue nothing but perfection even for music on the go. 

Back to that point of cable being the last area of improvement. I do agree, to a certain degree, that what you said is true. However, there are also many, many people who have already pushed their game as far as they can, and hence cables, to them, regardless of price, makes sense as the next area to pursue. There are some people who are already rocking the best DAPs out there money can buy (which, ironically seems to be the bare minimum, since you only ever seem to see CU, SS or 1Zs during audio eventsm or phones when they are too lazy to use their DAPs), have already sent said players for after-market mods/enhancements, already own multiple iems/cans/speakers set ups, maybe even had a hand in DIY projects like fashioning out a custom copper chasis just to improve the grounding of existing gears they own. You may be surprised to realize that, there are more people than you think, who are already at the point where they really have nothing else to spend their money on to ick out those last few drops of performance. 
 
Mar 22, 2017 at 8:55 PM Post #566 of 4,183
I agree that much of cable prices rarely comes from the actual material costs, but how the manufacturer decides to price it, and if the market is willing to accept it. However, I have to disagree, that that makes the process as sinister as implied in your above post. We are in a strange hobby, where more often than not, the price to performance point rarely makes sense in any other context. Heck, I paid 6 k for my player after 2 months of consideration, yet, I still am trying to justify a reason strong enough to make me spend 3 k to upgrade the frame + fork on my bicycle. 

With that said, I would like to respectfully point out that audio priorities differ from person to person. I do agree that cables should be as ergonomic as possible, since this hobby is meant to be enjoyed while on the go. That said, the boundaries of what is 'portable' and 'not' differs, and some cables which you might deem excessively obstructive might be well within limits of another. To others, ergonomics might not even matter at all, since they pursue nothing but perfection even for music on the go. 

Back to that point of cable being the last area of improvement. I do agree, to a certain degree, that what you said is true. However, there are also many, many people who have already pushed their game as far as they can, and hence cables, to them, regardless of price, makes sense as the next area to pursue. There are some people who are already rocking the best DAPs out there money can buy (which, ironically seems to be the bare minimum, since you only ever seem to see CU, SS or 1Zs during audio eventsm or phones when they are too lazy to use their DAPs), have already sent said players for after-market mods/enhancements, already own multiple iems/cans/speakers set ups, maybe even had a hand in DIY projects like fashioning out a custom copper chasis just to improve the grounding of existing gears they own. You may be surprised to realize that, there are more people than you think, who are already at the point where they really have nothing else to spend their money on to ick out those last few drops of performance. 

I think we all want good sound, regardless of whether we are your average head-fi member or your earpod loving iphone user. I think it would be hard to find anyone who doesn't want to experience their favourite music in a more pleasing way. Now the issue comes on how we decide what that is, and like all other cases there can never be a truly universal conclusion. However I do think there can be a set of standard that will please a wider population than the very niche of the niche of us who is happy to carry a cable like Brise audio Murakumo. I have no issue with such specific product, I for one have crazy cables like that but I have never used them outside. Certainly we all have different priorities but sadly like all things if money wasn't the factor than we wouldn't have to prioritise things. 
 
There will always but those who are in this place as it is their hobby and for them there is no limit and they will always take on the more daring aspect of this hobby, as that is what a hobby is. But if we are to think more socially and if we want to expand the market so we improve the interest enough so that music producers start caring about producing music beyond the limit of iTune lossy limits we have to provide more clarity and justification behind why things cost what they do and without such clarity this large movement will always remain as something that only hobbyist do because they are bored, your average folk will simply come here, look at things, laugh and close the thread.
 
To be fair I was one, I am not anymore as I have spend close to 5K on cables alone but do I blame those people? No, the vast number of cables I tried did not offer any upgrade compared to their cheaper competitor. I will not mention name as I do not have the will to fight, it is fruitless but out of all the snake oils in our hobby cable is the cream of the crop of the snake oils! 
 
Mar 22, 2017 at 9:51 PM Post #567 of 4,183
Yes only those factories like you said have the license to produce those kind of cables.

Thinking it another way.

How you know the internal structure of the cables are the same? Do you cut them up and count how many thick and thin strands are in the cable and how the cables are constructed?

Are there other companies that extract or order the strands and reconstruct the cables?

If the cables are designed and constructed by the cable designers, how about research time and materials they tested to come out with the cables?

How about telling me which of the 3 factories produced this cable?
There are 2 gold bunches mixed within the silver bunches.
 
Mar 22, 2017 at 10:19 PM Post #568 of 4,183
  I think the problem is that some people run "burn in" while continuously listening to their headphones.  From my personal experience, that's when a brain burn-in happens and the gradual changes in sound are less noticeable.  When you set your cable/IEM on a continuous playback loop for a week and check it once a day to take progress notes, you will hear a more noticeable difference.
 
Btw, on a different topic, anybody else excited/curious about @EffectAudio announced Heritage series "Lionheart" cable?  A hybrid design with GPC and SPC Litz braids in a thinner and more pliable Heritage series, announced here.  Though cable reviews typically don't make a front page, at least seeing an announcement on the front page was cool
biggrin.gif

 
@Kozato already has Lionheart listed on: https://music-sanctuary.com/collections/effect-audio/products/heritage-series-lionheart-upgrade-cable
 
Mar 22, 2017 at 11:06 PM Post #569 of 4,183
  I think we all want good sound, regardless of whether we are your average head-fi member or your earpod loving iphone user. I think it would be hard to find anyone who doesn't want to experience their favourite music in a more pleasing way. Now the issue comes on how we decide what that is, and like all other cases there can never be a truly universal conclusion. However I do think there can be a set of standard that will please a wider population than the very niche of the niche of us who is happy to carry a cable like Brise audio Murakumo. I have no issue with such specific product, I for one have crazy cables like that but I have never used them outside. Certainly we all have different priorities but sadly like all things if money wasn't the factor than we wouldn't have to prioritise things. 
 
There will always but those who are in this place as it is their hobby and for them there is no limit and they will always take on the more daring aspect of this hobby, as that is what a hobby is. But if we are to think more socially and if we want to expand the market so we improve the interest enough so that music producers start caring about producing music beyond the limit of iTune lossy limits we have to provide more clarity and justification behind why things cost what they do and without such clarity this large movement will always remain as something that only hobbyist do because they are bored, your average folk will simply come here, look at things, laugh and close the thread.
 
To be fair I was one, I am not anymore as I have spend close to 5K on cables alone but do I blame those people? No, the vast number of cables I tried did not offer any upgrade compared to their cheaper competitor. I will not mention name as I do not have the will to fight, it is fruitless but out of all the snake oils in our hobby cable is the cream of the crop of the snake oils! 


In their defense, it takes a large amount of capital to acquire both the machineries and human talent needed to design and build their own OFC/single crystal cables. So, to expect a company to not source their cables from the big names is kind of an unfair criticism to make. As far as I know, only Crystal cable does that, and there is a reason why their products sound so good (dreamline cable anyone?) and cost so much (3kUSD). 

Secondly, there are a number of cable companies, even if they do have several premium priced products due to limited production runs or geometry, still remain steadfastly a budget company with a product line that largely cater to the market segment that dont mind sacrificing performance. So the budget market is also well taken care off, because in all honesty, it is almost impossible for a company to be a truly high-end, no-holds barred cable company without the expertise on the scale of crystal cable. Do note, that charging a premium for variations in geometry, or even because its a limited run of cables, only makes it expensive, but not high-end in the truest sense of the word, in much the same way the last thing money can buy is, class. Most companies still do not offer a true premium experience, or bespoke service like the same way we viewboots or clothes, by being have the ability to tune every aspect of the wire without external limitations from a supplier (at most, they just slap together existing cables and call it something new), and hence, why I feel that the audio game is still targeted towards the mainstream, and not a niche reserved only for the rich.

As such, I do think that while the market has some crazy cables out there, no one is as left out of the game. Yes, it lacks transparency, but nothing in this world ever is, and we can only guess and piece together info based on what we know, before deciding if it is worth spending the cash for it. 
 
Mar 22, 2017 at 11:30 PM Post #570 of 4,183
Yes only those factories like you said have the license to produce those kind of cables.

Thinking it another way.

How you know the internal structure of the cables are the same? Do you cut them up and count how many thick and thin strands are in the cable and how the cables are constructed?

Are there other companies that extract or order the strands and reconstruct the cables?

If the cables are designed and constructed by the cable designers, how about research time and materials they tested to come out with the cables?

How about telling me which of the 3 factories produced this cable?
There are 2 gold bunches mixed within the silver bunches.

I don't dispute the R&D cost of cable manufacturer like NEOTECH, which is one of the three cable manufacturers who have the license to produce OCC cables. They are not the want who ask excessively for their cables.
As far as me naming who made those cable I don't see the point you are trying to make. Asking for more data as a consumer isn't something to be offended by as a consumer.
 

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