[OrenT]

Anyone compare a Forza Noir Hybrid cable with a Lazuli Reference? Impressions?

 

[rangerid]

spot on, IMHO this holds for the abyss 1266 and Raal HP's as well

My ranking is actually 1. Abyss 1266 2. Susvara 3. ShangSr
I was not too impressed by the Raal, the tuning and design are just too far gone for me.

Is anybody here qualified to comment on quality of power, amp topology or tech?

If yes I’m all ears. I still haven’t received an answer for why the Oor can’t get the best out of the Susvara other than something like 55Watts > 8 Watts which makes no sense even for an insensitive headphone.

Sajid Amit described the Oor as magnificent with the Susvara.

The Ferrum is not the bottleneck of the chain when you auditioned the Susvara, the RME dac is. Having said that, Utopia is a fantastic headphone and not uncommon at all to prefer it over the Susvara.

Might be a hot take especially in a Sus thread but give me a 1k amp with enough power and a 10k DAC than the other way around.

 

[paradoxper]

My ranking is actually 1. Abyss 1266 2. Susvara 3. ShangSr
I was not too impressed by the Raal, the tuning and design are just too far gone for me.



The Ferrum is not the bottleneck of the chain when you auditioned the Susvara, the RME dac is. Having said that, Utopia is a fantastic headphone and not uncommon at all to prefer it over the Susvara.

Might be a hot take especially in a Sus thread but give me a 1k amp with enough power and a 10k DAC than the other way around.

RAAL is quite specialized and requires direct drive amplification for best performance of which are limited -- with the RAAL amps in particular being just ok.

 

[thecrow]

Not an isolated experience from members that have visited this thread and (sometimes reluctantly) tried various amps and have changed their opinions through their own experiences, and not just hearsay



ps: i’m most likely mostly preaching to the believers - so probably no point

ps: I believe amping the susvaras is about more than just power BUT…..

 

[rthomas]

My ranking is actually 1. Abyss 1266 2. Susvara 3. ShangSr
I was not too impressed by the Raal, the tuning and design are just too far gone for me.



The Ferrum is not the bottleneck of the chain when you auditioned the Susvara, the RME dac is. Having said that, Utopia is a fantastic headphone and not uncommon at all to prefer it over the Susvara.

Might be a hot take especially in a Sus thread but give me a 1k amp with enough power and a 10k DAC than the other way around.

Please tell me why the RME is the bottleneck?

When I compared the Utopia to the Susvara I used the RME in both cases. So I guess it should have negatively affected the Utopia's performance as well.

Or does the Susvara have special DAC requirements that I'm unaware of?

 

[number1sixerfan]

I think two things tend to happen and conflate each other in this thread: 1) continuous doubt that the Susvara needs more and higher quality power than other headphones, which I think the consistent feedback and evidence should kind of speak for itself; and 2) and #1 causing susvara lovers to discredit people's opinions too often (especially when they've used a decent enough chain) when it's entirely possible someone just likes another headphone more, which is ok.

Utopia and Susvara are very different, so I get it.. and I also agree that the Susvara is more polite (generally is on any chain I've ever heard it on, mine or others) than the Utopia, mainly due to its forwardness/closed in presentation and slightly harder bass impact (not subbass). Imo no chain is ever going to change those innate characteristics. Obviously there's tradeoffs in each direction and I prefer the Susvara overall by quite a bit, but again I get it if someone else doesn't.

 

[Polygonhell]

When I compared the Utopia to the Susvara I used the RME in both cases. So I guess it should have negatively affected the Utopia's performance as well.

Your always comparing systems not components, one headphone might highlight something on a chain that another does not.
IMO the RME is not a very good DAC for the money, it's fine if you want all the features, but there are DAC's at the same price point than sound better to me.

Both the Susvara and Utopia are picky about what's driving them in different ways, the Utopia can come across aggressively sharp on the wrong chain, the Susvara can come accross bland on the wrong chain. And IMO the best chains for both headphones are very different to each other.

Having said that I agree with number1sixerfan, there is a lot of if you don't like the Susvara, or prefer something else your wrong in this thread, it is what it is, and if you prefer something else move on. It's my second favorite headphone and I'd take it over a Utopia by quite a margin, but I do really like the Utopia if you have it on the right chain.
And if you value the dynamics the Utopia provides over the overall naturalness of the Susvara's presentation (and if it's driven well the low volume dynamics), don't worry about it and just concentrate on the Utopia.
It's just not worth stressing over if the Susvara is well driven, either spend your way past it, or just move past it.

 

[iFi audio]

In Munich please compare Giorgio by Moroder by Daft Punk on the Susvara / Utopia. With the same 5 db bass shelf applied the difference in bass presentation is very clear

I look forward to your impressions.

If I'll be actually able to get out of our room in the MOC atrium area, I will go hunting to the headphone zone downstairs, that's for sure!

 

[Malcyg]

What the hell is going on here? The previous two posts have been entirely sensible and reasonable. Accepting that people have preferences and that different phones sound better/worse depending upon synergies with the whole chain? Something‘s going badly wrong surely?

 

[rthomas]

Your always comparing systems not components, one headphone might highlight something on a chain that another does not.
IMO the RME is not a very good DAC for the money, it's fine if you want all the features, but there are DAC's at the same price point than sound better to me.

Both the Susvara and Utopia are picky about what's driving them in different ways, the Utopia can come across aggressively sharp on the wrong chain, the Susvara can come accross bland on the wrong chain. And IMO the best chains for both headphones are very different to each other.

Having said that I agree with number1sixerfan, there is a lot of if you don't like the Susvara, or prefer something else your wrong in this thread, it is what it is, and if you prefer something else move on. It's my second favorite headphone and I'd take it over a Utopia by quite a margin, but I do really like the Utopia if you have it on the right chain.
And if you value the dynamics the Utopia provides over the overall naturalness of the Susvara's presentation (and if it's driven well the low volume dynamics), don't worry about it and just concentrate on the Utopia.
It's just not worth stressing over if the Susvara is well driven, either spend your way past it, or just move past it.

1. Any reason why the RME is ''not a very good'' DAC? Any technical reasons other than ''what you heard''? Otherwise anybody can say anything about any component and it's just my word against yours. I think it is a very good DAC and reveals everything there is to hear in the music.

2. I never said the Susvara was bland. I said it was slightly more laid back than the Utopia and therefore less engaging for my tastes.

3. I used an amp (the Ferrum Oor) which has been called ''magnificent'' and ''amazing'' with the Utopia by a couple of prominent reviewers. Not exactly ''the wrong chain''

4. A Headfi thread for a headphone is to discuss and critically evaluate the product. It is not exclusive to fans of the product. The intention behind sharing my impressions was simply to help people who are still trying to decide between these two amazing flagships.

I find most reviews to be full of hyperbole and sound like poems of praise to the product and the manufacturer so I try to counter that with my more down to earth impressions. I think many people appreciate it.

There is a trend on Headfi at the moment that you need a $20000 or $30000 chain to ''properly'' drive or maximize the potential of a headphone ( see Susvara and Abyss for example). Obviously the industry loves this trend as it means massive profits.

I think the differences are GREATLY exaggerated. Just my humble opinion. and if somebody owns a $50000 worth of AMP and DAC it doesn't make them more knowledgeable or a better critical listener or a ''golden ears''. It just means they have a high level of disposable income and good for them.
If anybody has technical or logical reasons why anything I said is wrong I'm all ears. If the only response you have is ''I hear it that way'' then your opinion has the same value as mine.



5. I'm genuinely curious as to why the Susvara needs 50 Watts + @60 Ohms to sound its best. If anybody can give me a technical explanation I would really appreciate it.

In my experience 4 to 8 Watts and it sounds ''fully driven.

 

[chesebert]

Otherwise anybody can say anything about any component and it's just my word against yours. I think

Ain’t that a btc. That‘s basically audiophilia in a nutshell. Anybody (including reviewers and shills) can claim anything about any gear and any manufacturer can charge any amount and it’s their words against yours.

Many reviewers have barely spent any reasonable time as an audiophile. They are popular because they are good writers/YouTubers and bought/borrowed a bunch of expensive cans. These people really have no business reviewing audio gear let alone anything high end gear.

 

[rthomas]

Ain’t that a btc. That‘s basically audiophilia in a nutshell. Anybody (including reviewers and shills) can claim anything about any gear and any manufacturer can charge any amount and it’s their words against yours.

Sure.

So as a counterpoint I provide what I think is a more balanced take. I’m happy if it helps even one person.

 

[chesebert]

Sure.

So as a counterpoint I provide what I think is a more balanced take. I’m happy if it helps even one person.

Good luck. Popular opinion wins regardless of merit over here. I have semi given up at this point.

 

[Polygonhell]

Any reason why the RME is ''not a very good'' DAC? Any technical reasons other than ''what you heard''?

I’m not going to debate the value of measurements.
I use my ears to exclusively determine the quality of a component, the RME is comparable to me to the decent entry level DAC’s, and you’re paying a significant premium for the feature set. If you want the features great, then it’s a good DAC, but for the $1200 version, I’d take a Bifrost 2, Denafrips Aries 2 or a Soekris DAC over it, if it’s the 2K version, I’d take an Yggdrasil.
There is some preference involved, but to me those would be pretty easy choices, and that’s just based on what I’ve personally listened to.

I think the Ferum stack is middling on the Susvara FWIW, it would be on my barely acceptable list, but it’s all relative and lots of people love it.

There is a trend on Headfi at the moment that you need a $20000 or $30000 chain to ''properly'' drive or maximize the potential of a headphone

They’re opinions, they’re worth exactly what you paid for them.
I don’t even know what maximize potential means, higher end stuff tends to sound better, I’ve yet to encounter the point in cost where I don’t think there is a significant difference, and I’ve heard 7 figure vinyl setups in rooms custom built for acoustics, they really are in some cases dramatically better than the $100K setups I’ve heard. Though again there is some preference involved. And those systems are way out of what I can afford.
I could also go back to a HD600 and a SW51 driven by a D10 and still really enjoy the music.
What’s worth it to you I can’t answer, it’s dependent on your situation and how you value things.
Forums generally are a terrible place to get advice, they are full of self reinforcing opinions, none of it’s “factual”, and you have to read them with that in mind.

I think the differences are GREATLY exaggerated.

Yes very much so the subtlety is in the details, but your reading a forum for people who care about these small differences.

 

[chesebert]

I’m not going to debate the value of measurements.
I use my ears to exclusively determine the quality of a component, the RME is comparable to me to the decent entry level DAC’s, and you’re paying a significant premium for the feature set. If you want the features great, then it’s a good DAC, but for the $1200 version, I’d take a Bifrost 2, Denafrips Aries 2 or a Soekris DAC over it, if it’s the 2K version, I’d take an Yggdrasil.
There is some preference involved, but to me those would be pretty easy choices, and that’s just based on what I’ve personally listened to.

I think the Ferum stack is middling on the Susvara FWIW, it would be on my barely acceptable list, but it’s all relative and lots of people love it.


They’re opinions, they’re worth exactly what you paid for them.
I don’t even know what maximize potential means, higher end stuff tends to sound better, I’ve yet to encounter the point in cost where I don’t think there is a significant difference, and I’ve heard 7 figure vinyl setups in rooms custom built for acoustics, they really are in some cases dramatically better than the $100K setups I’ve heard. Though again there is some preference involved. And those systems are way out of what I can afford.
I could also go back to a HD600 and a SW51 driven by a D10 and still really enjoy the music.
What’s worth it to you I can’t answer, it’s dependent on your situation and how you value things.
Forums generally are a terrible place to get advice, they are full of self reinforcing opinions, none of it’s “factual”, and you have to read them with that in mind.


Yes very much so the subtlety is in the details, but your reading a forum for people who care about these small differences.

How many years have you been in the hobby and how long have you owned your current chain?