[Shahrose]

Yesterday I listened (again) Accuphase E-380, and today (for the second time) the Pass Labs combo XP-12/XA25. No need to compare them side by side to understand the differences - they're huge. I fully agree with your description of both amp sets and the best one can do about it is to have them both - lucky you! But since I listen mainly to classical music I find the Pass combo more attractive: all these details, separation between instruments, pulled-back scene and huge space - they rhyme so beautifully with the unplugged music! But there is a small problem to it: poorly realized recordings call for a more solid and body-building-like amp, E-380 would do perfectly in such cases, same as Pass Labs INT-25 which I auditioned today, too. BTW, these two Pass Labs sets - the separated and the integrated ones - differ to my ears so much that I'd never guess -- in an acousmatic situation -- that one and the same producer is behind them both. Have anybody compared them? Am I missing something?

Anyway, I need to make sure that the Pass combo won't hurt too much of my music collection which contains, alas!, some poorer realizations of a very nice music. But then the question raises: what do we look for, a neutral therefore unforgiving amp, or the one which gives a hand in case of trouble?

EDIT: This is a rhetorical question to me: I love to jump deep into the recording, so probably Pass wins. At least for the moment of writing.

EDIT 2: The Pass combo with its phenomenal delicacy and fine-grained projection tames the Susvara and fits it congenially; the Susvara plays warm if no-one bothers it!

Could you describe the differences? Good info, thanks for sharing.

 

[gwos]

Could you describe the differences? Good info, thanks for sharing.

INT-25 being more straightforward, music is closer, space is smaller, sound is less nuanced, all instruments seem equally important, while XP-12/XA25 is finer, more delicate, nuanced in shades, space bigger, separation of instruments better, sound is kind of fragile and more engaging despite lacking some body.

 

[Carm86]

Just compared my HPA4 v Pass Labs xp-12+xa30.8, xp-12+xa25, HPA (pre-out)+30.8, HPA (pre-out)+xa25, HPA (pre-out)+250.8 today. Dacs tried; RME-ADI2, Dave, Esoteric N-05. But I'll leave the Dac differences aside, and try to focus on the amp/pre-amp stages. I used the stock susvara cable to keep things consistent. Either hooked in directly to HPA4, or to a speaker tap -> xlr cable for the speaker amps.

It was a really close call between the HPA4 vs HPA (pre-out)+xa25. Not enough of a diff for me to justify it, other than having a little bit of nice extra gain to toy with. The xp-12+xa25 added a bit extra mid-range warmth, and maybe slightly smoother top-end but was hard to tell on that part. The dude helping me demo and I both kinda came to same conclusion in that, my dac/preamp are probably better suited to sticking with fully balanced gear and the single-ended outputs on my stuff just isn't as good. So I probably wasn't able to give the XA25 a fair shot.

XA30.8 in all its combos is where things started to really shine for me compared to the HPA4. Consider that the XP-12 basically just had a warmer signature in general, and then otherwise I felt the Susvara hit true-subbass regions lower (less about hearing it and more about feeling it really), and some instruments just felt more natural. Guitars, such as in Marcin - Moonlight Sonata, is where I really noticed it. Marginally wider sound-stage but wasn't a big diff. In general, I just got a bit more oomph out of things with it, and a bit less harshness around the edges.

XA250.8 was very similar to the XA30.8, since I think I was just always within the Class-A range anyways on both even when I tried turning things up.

Now is the 30.8 worth the extra $6500 msrp over the HPA4? Not sure yet. I really do like having the extra gain available, and the sound diffs as a whole package was immediately noticeable when swapping between the two. Would I get the XP-12 as a pre-amp instead? Personally, probably not. I don't like having source gear add too much extra coloration to things; I leave that to the end driver like the headphones/speakers/iems I use.

Did it all sound great though? For sure, I don't think you can go wrong with any of it.

For reference, my testing playlist https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/797636bf-8c44-4227-af42-aaca4b137732

*edit* Forgot to mention, all combinations were volume matched with my REED R8050 first, basically putting it as close to the center of the cups as I could and closing the pads around them with even pressure to try and minimize any leakage

 

[Sajid Amit]

I think that a TOTL headphone should be able to play all kind of music very well. Am also not so sure that the correlation is as prominent as same seems to believe.

Yes, of course. The question is not of "well". The question is of "better".

That said, I do agree with some of the comments that Susvara may be the preferable all-rounder.

 

[Sajid Amit]

INT-25 being more straightforward, music is closer, space is smaller, sound is less nuanced, all instruments seem equally important, while XP-12/XA25 is finer, more delicate, nuanced in shades, space bigger, separation of instruments better, sound is kind of fragile and more engaging despite lacking some body.

"Fragile" is a nice way to describe it. The Pass + Susvara does sound ethereal, delicate, vapory even, haha. Sorry, haven't indulged in audiophile metaphors in a while, so couldn't resist...

 

[paradoxper]

"Fragile" is a nice way to describe it. The Pass + Susvara does sound ethereal, delicate, vapory even, haha. Sorry, haven't indulged in audiophile metaphors in a while, so couldn't resist...

Love ya, Sajid. Describing the Susvara as ethereal is intimately misleading, Delicate, yes, fragile - more of an appearance of reserved, easy frequency response.
I would hope the reader a more discerning digester.

Close though.

 

[Carm86]

Finally dug out my A90 and hooked it up to the RME quick to try, since I had it all out still anyways.

Sounds a bit better on medium gain over high gain, so I'd probably keep it there. More than enough power to get them going, currently have it set to roughly 1 o'clock on the dial. My typical listening volume is 75-80db. They're somewhat brighter than the HPA4 though, and I can hear it emphasizing highs more than the HPA4 does, which is a bit fatiguing and bordering harsh for me. Nils Lofgren's - Keith Don't Go, at about ~3:20 into the track he starts picking his guitar and it's a much higher pitch and the harshness really shows through here. 4:40 is another good section, where it's more towards the upper mid range but that harshness still shows through. A bit distorted, whereas on the HPA4 it still sounds like an actual note being hit. I'm not one for flowery audiophile language so take that as you will Conversely, I think some of that distortion maybe helps emphasize the bass a bit more, even if it feels a bit more bloomy you get a tad bit more.

Though if I didn't have HPA4 side by side I think it'd be fine to keep you going for a while.

 

[Sajid Amit]

Love ya, Sajid. Describing the Susvara as ethereal is intimately misleading, Delicate, yes, fragile - more of an appearance of reserved, easy frequency response.
I would hope the reader a more discerning digester.

Close though.

Love you too, man.

You are probably right. Delicate is better than ethereal.

I was just having some fun.

But we are disagreeing on shades of delicate here, mind you.

I am sure discerning readers understand.

 

[Sajid Amit]

Love ya, Sajid. Describing the Susvara as ethereal is intimately misleading, Delicate, yes, fragile - more of an appearance of reserved, easy frequency response.
I would hope the reader a more discerning digester.

Close though.

You know, you are among my go-to audiophiles for discussion, and a fine arbiter of audio tastes (and terminologies, now, it seems!).

 

[paradoxper]

Love you too, man.

You are probably right. Delicate is better than ethereal.

I was just having some fun.

But we are disagreeing on shades of delicate here, mind you.

I am sure discerning readers understand.

Mind me, indeed.

My friend, I'm sorry to be such an arbiter of such terminology to a presumed ignorant audience.

You know, I still love you.

 

[Sajid Amit]

Mind me, indeed.

My friend, I'm sorry to be such an arbiter of such terminology to a presumed ignorant audience.

You know, I still love you.

Such love you give, my paradoxical friend.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Just compared my HPA4 v Pass Labs xp-12+xa30.8, xp-12+xa25, HPA (pre-out)+30.8, HPA (pre-out)+xa25, HPA (pre-out)+250.8 today. Dacs tried; RME-ADI2, Dave, Esoteric N-05. But I'll leave the Dac differences aside, and try to focus on the amp/pre-amp stages. I used the stock susvara cable to keep things consistent. Either hooked in directly to HPA4, or to a speaker tap -> xlr cable for the speaker amps.

It was a really close call between the HPA4 vs HPA (pre-out)+xa25. Not enough of a diff for me to justify it, other than having a little bit of nice extra gain to toy with. The xp-12+xa25 added a bit extra mid-range warmth, and maybe slightly smoother top-end but was hard to tell on that part. The dude helping me demo and I both kinda came to same conclusion in that, my dac/preamp are probably better suited to sticking with fully balanced gear and the single-ended outputs on my stuff just isn't as good. So I probably wasn't able to give the XA25 a fair shot.

XA30.8 in all its combos is where things started to really shine for me compared to the HPA4. Consider that the XP-12 basically just had a warmer signature in general, and then otherwise I felt the Susvara hit true-subbass regions lower (less about hearing it and more about feeling it really), and some instruments just felt more natural. Guitars, such as in Marcin - Moonlight Sonata, is where I really noticed it. Marginally wider sound-stage but wasn't a big diff. In general, I just got a bit more oomph out of things with it, and a bit less harshness around the edges.

XA250.8 was very similar to the XA30.8, since I think I was just always within the Class-A range anyways on both even when I tried turning things up.

Now is the 30.8 worth the extra $6500 msrp over the HPA4? Not sure yet. I really do like having the extra gain available, and the sound diffs as a whole package was immediately noticeable when swapping between the two. Would I get the XP-12 as a pre-amp instead? Personally, probably not. I don't like having source gear add too much extra coloration to things; I leave that to the end driver like the headphones/speakers/iems I use.

Did it all sound great though? For sure, I don't think you can go wrong with any of it.

For reference, my testing playlist https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/797636bf-8c44-4227-af42-aaca4b137732

*edit* Forgot to mention, all combinations were volume matched with my REED R8050 first, basically putting it as close to the center of the cups as I could and closing the pads around them with even pressure to try and minimize any leakage

Agree 100% with you Carm86 reagrdong the pre-amp scenario.

I found the same scenarios with my Chord DAVE connected either directly to my Chord Mezzo 140 using the DAVE's digital pre-amp feature via balanced XLR's or connecting my DAVE (again via balanced XLR's) to my Chord Prima pre-amp and only using the DAVE's DAC feature, and the Prima then connected to the Mezzo 140 (again via balanced XLR's).

For both my Susvara listening (connected to my Chord Mezzo 140's speaker taps) and my speakers, the DAVE being directly connected to my Chord Mezzo 140 was far superior on all accounts on what I was hearing, in particular the much better clarity, transparency and instrument separations.

 

[thecrow]

@Ciggavelli @MacedonianHero @jlbrach and others that have tried the cardas clear with the susvara (and maybe the he1000v2 or he1000se) i was hoping to get a few comments re how the cardas clear plays with these hifiman headphones

it's been a long time since i demoed this cable and that was with the hd800. I found the sound quite sweet sounding and a real focus in the mids but i felt it was too sweet in that manner - at least in my tube wa2 system for the hd800. for that reason i am not sure if this cable is what i am after with the susvara

i am looking for a clear, "transparent", well balanced cable that does not bring too much colour. and though i usually prefer silver that is not really working for me with the susvaras at the moment, i simply want the susvaras to do more of what it naturally does - effortless transparency (excuse the jargon)

i recently bought the nordost heimdall 2 for my utopias and that does the job well with them. unfortunately that cable has now been discontinued so i can not source one for my susvara (and hekse) with 3.5mm connectors. i am however using mu utopia heimdall 2 with my susvara with arctic cable silver adapters and that has come up pretty well. it may not be sounding quite as good as the demo 2.5mm connector version sounded with the 2.5mm susvara did when i demoed it in store but i shall be trying the demo again next week with the demo susvara as i am not sure if my opinion on the differences there is correct. i have the opportunity to buy the 2.5mm demo version and have it reterminated by a friend. but that's another story

so do you think the cardas clear may be what i am after or a bit too coloured?
i also went down the path of the nordost over the dana cable lazuli ref for my utopias as i thought that would be too coloured too from what i have read

your experienced views are most welcomed
peter t

 

[Articnoise]

I think most do really well with all genres, and especially the TC and Susvara. I think the question many have is which is 'best' for the respective genres they primarily listen to, which opens up an entire can of worms so to speak. Combination of listening preferences and genres preferred will absolutely have a huge influence on how great someone perceives a headphone to be. (also, mainly because no headphone is perfect and each excels in varying areas)

Yes I know that many people feel like there is one 'best' HP for the respective genres. I think there is some correlation, but that's rather weak for something as diversely as one music genre normally is. Listening preferences, mood and quality of the recordings is all more important to me when selecting which headphone to use any given situation. I agree with you in that no HP is perfect and the strength of one HP can be more fitting for one typ of music but I don't believe its necessarily divided by music genres per se.

 

[Articnoise]

Yes, of course. The question is not of "well". The question is of "better".

That said, I do agree with some of the comments that Susvara may be the preferable all-rounder.

Yes but I also mean better. Its just that rock, jazz, electronic or whatever are not homogen. The different within each genre can be bigger than between different music genres, IMO.