[mulder01]

Tyll is giving Tyll's opinion, which I rarely agree with, so I'll take that with a grain of salt.

 

[astrostar59]

  Tyll is giving Tyll's opinion, which I rarely agree with, so I'll take that with a grain of salt.

Agree. He has gone all weird over the Stax 009s, used to say they were the best but now claims they have a fizzy treble.
 
Well he does say the Shangri thing sound 'quite good'. But if you scroll down another poster heard it at the same show and said it was bass light. Hmm, this reaks of a rushed out product. The HE1000 has build issues. In real life it looks cheap to me.
 
Rather buy the Senn HE1 if I had the cash, at least that company has the enormous R&D and skill set to beat the already superb Orpheus.
 
But I am wondering just how far ahead (from the 009s with a BHSE or Carbon) any of these 'head in clouds' systems are?

 

[conquerator2]

The signature is a certainly different. The SGL is more akin to the 009 while the HE1 has an overall less aggressive sound. I spent more time with the HE1 than I did with SGL, but I know I prefer the signature ballpark of the HE1. Coupled with the soundstage and amount of detail it can convey, it was pretty mesmerizing. It is a proprietary system though. The SGL is more flexible and can be amp customized, though because it also follows a signature similar to TOTL Staxes [at least the prototype I heard did], it is not as exotic. The HE1 is closer to the vintage Staxes, 007 and Koss estats, though their spaciousness and detail is superior.
Anyway, 

 

 

[JaZZ]

I just discovered this design detail...
 

 
...and I'm quite impressed by it.
 
It seems to follow HiFiMan's approach of optimal acoustic openness (e.g. known from the HE1000) – a broadly underestimated feature, especially with electrostats, where the electrode grids represent large reflective surfaces and moreover air accelerators à la compession-chamber drivers. The grids in the Shangri-La look like ~90% sound permeable, whereas usual electrostats barely reach 45%. The only question is if it's not bought with too high grid resonances.
 
In fact as little inner reflections as possible is one of the most important criteria in sound transducers generally, but it's often highly neglected. I'm glad HiFiMan take care to this design detail.
 
Now if only they would take equal care to build quality and customers! (Keyword HE1000/V2 pads.) And of course insisting in the bundle with the amp is a gross error, as is the price level. I wouldn't buy it nonetheless unless the drivers get greater angling.

 

[georgep]

I just discovered this design detail...




...and I'm quite impressed by it.

It seems to follow HiFiMan's approach of optimal acoustic openness (e.g. known from the HE1000) – a broadly underestimated feature, especially with electrostats, where the electrode grids represent large reflective surfaces and moreover air accelerators à la compession-chamber drivers. The grids in the Shangri-La look like ~90% sound permeable, whereas usual electrostats barely reach 45%. The only question is if it's not bought with too high grid resonances.

In fact as little inner reflections as possible is one of the most important criteria in sound transducers generally, but it's often highly neglected. I'm glad HiFiMan take care to this design detail.

Now if only they would take equal care to build quality and customers! (Keyword HE1000/V2 pads.) And of course insisting in the bundle with the amp is a gross error, as is the price level. I wouldn't buy it nonetheless unless the drivers get greater angling.

Not sure where you get your "electrostats barely reach 45%" from, but stators are supposed to be as stiff as possible so that they do not move. Not sure that thin metal mesh is the best approach in achieving the required stiffness.

 

[oneguy]

Not sure where you get your "electrostats barely reach 45%" from, but stators are supposed to be as stiff as possible so that they do not move. Not sure that thin metal mesh is the best approach in achieving the required stiffness.

It's not but a stiffer (also read as more brittle) material can be used to offset this choice. In design there is always a trade off and maybe that compromise was worth the risk?

 

[arnaud]

Actually, in terms of stator openeness, assuming the perforations size is much smaller than acoustic wavelength, I believe anything > 30% open will actually be effectively acoustically transparent. So the main design issue on the stator is actually rigidity while avoiding too much viscous damping effect on the diaphragm.

Also, I am not sure a wire frame like this results in as homogeneous an electrostatic fields as a regular perforated stators?

 

[arnaud]

Also, if you ask me, I am more technically impressed by the friction welding process used to join metal pieces in the sr-009 electrode than a thin wireframe welded onto a frame...

I would not ascert on manufacturing costs but I'd bet on the stax process being far more expensive, why is this shangri'la 10 grands already?

Arnaud

 

[oneguy]

Simple. Because Fang thinks he can't get that. No other reason.

 

[JaZZ]

Not sure where you get your "electrostats barely reach 45%" from, but stators are supposed to be as stiff as possible so that they do not move. Not sure that thin metal mesh is the best approach in achieving the required stiffness.

 
From the looks. The holes of typical Stax stators as a whole represent less than half of the entire stator surface.
 

Actually, in terms of stator openeness, assuming the perforations size is much smaller than acoustic wavelength, I believe anything > 30% open will actually be effectively acoustically transparent. So the main design issue on the stator is actually rigidity while avoiding too much viscous damping effect on the diaphragm.

Also, I am not sure a wire frame like this results in as homogeneous an electrostatic fields as a regular perforated stators?

 
I was just trying to word succinctly. Of course more or less the whole produced sound gets through the stator grids, but their resistance against the air movement produces reflections, air accelerations and turbulences which all have audible effects. The ideal would be a free space around the membrane. It would make a huge difference to the sound. A good example for the effect are protective grids covering dome tweeters (also used to shape the sound characteristic). And pressure-chamber arrays such as in horn tweeters. I've experimented with Celestion HF1300 tweeters with their virtually hornless pressure-chamber arrays in the past. Removing them reduces efficiency, but also removes a distinct sharpness from the acceleration of the air molecules – possibly caused by turbulences and inner reflections (hard to differentiate in such micro-acoustics anyway). A lot of other corresponding experiences during my speaker-building area have confirmed the importance of minimal reflections. The best high-frequency reproduction I've heard was from a pair of freely radiating plasma tweeters (prototypes), whereas the radically caged Magnat counterparts sounded disappointingly metallic and lost all the goodness of an earlier prototype. (Unfortunately the metal grids around them are necessary against ozone and radio waves.)
 
Yes, I'm a bit skeptic about the resonant behavior of the wire grids as well. But if this problem can be solved, the design looks promising in terms of sound quality.

 

[mulder01]

Jazz just snuck his post in before me... Was going to say -
 
Maybe, despite consumers' initial observations of the design, there is always the possibility, that it's just an excellent sounding headphone.  Perhaps the R+D has paid off and the design simply works.  I mean, these guys have spent years doing research and testing...  
 
But maybe it's all hot air - the headphone is priced way too high, nobody buys one and the whole project falls flat.  Lesson learned for HiFiMan.  
 
On the other hand, maybe it's the best thing evarr and all the Stax fans cross over to the HiFiMan side and arnaud changes his subtitle to "sushi in shangri-la"
 
Time will tell.

 

[astrostar59]

  Jazz just snuck his post in before me... Was going to say -
 
Maybe, despite consumers' initial observations of the design, there is always the possibility, that it's just an excellent sounding headphone.  Perhaps the R+D has paid off and the design simply works.  I mean, these guys have spent years doing research and testing...  
 
But maybe it's all hot air - the headphone is priced way too high, nobody buys one and the whole project falls flat.  Lesson learned for HiFiMan.  
 
On the other hand, maybe it's the best thing evarr and all the Stax fans cross over to the HiFiMan side and arnaud changes his subtitle to "sushi in shangri-la"
 
Time will tell.

You might be right there.
 
Slight change of subject. I wonder of an elliptical driver shape works are well as a circle? It might be a dumb and obvious question, but think about it. The edges of the membrane have to move in and out, and they don't have a flexible edge like speaker cones. So would the bending / movement at the edges be different at the sides to the top and bottom, they create an uneven movement and stressing the membrane?
 
I haven't a clue, but this would worry me a bit. I was never a fan of elliptical speakers, thinking a circular piston type cone would move more air with less deformation of the sound wave.
 
The Abyss, 009s and 007s, Utopia, HE6, Audeze LCD 2/3/4 are all circular. Having said this, the HE-1 is elliptical.

 

[JaZZ]

  Slight change of subject. I wonder of an elliptical driver shape works are well as a circle? It might be a dumb and obvious question, but think about it. The edges of the membrane have to move in and out, and they don't have a flexible edge like speaker cones. So would the bending / movement at the edges be different at the sides to the top and bottom, they create an uneven movement and stressing the membrane?
 
I haven't a clue, but this would worry me a bit. I was never a fan of elliptical speakers, thinking a circular piston type cone would move more air with less deformation of the sound wave.
 
The Abyss, 009s and 007s, Utopia, HE6, Audeze LCD 2/3/4 are all circular. Having said this, the HE-1 is elliptical.

 
There are just as many examples of elliptical, oval and even rectangular/quadratic planar membranes (Stax Gamma, Lambda, HiFiMan HE1000, Edition X, Jecklin Float, Janszen, T&A, Martin Logan, Infinity, Piega, Quad...). I'm sure each geometry has some advantages and downsides in terms of standing waves within the membrane or their suppression, resp. But generally speaking a planar/foil membrane is also a partial vibrator, so doesn't need an extra suspension made of elastic material (which it consist of itself) nor is there the need to care for a uniform, piston-like movement, which isn't possible anyway.

 

[arnaud]

   
From the looks. The holes of typical Stax stators as a whole represent less than half of the entire stator surface.
 
 
I was just trying to word succinctly. Of course more or less the whole produced sound gets through the stator grids, but their resistance against the air movement produces reflections, air accelerations and turbulences which all have audible effects. The ideal would be a free space around the membrane. It would make a huge difference to the sound. A good example for the effect are protective grids covering dome tweeters (also used to shape the sound characteristic). And pressure-chamber arrays such as in horn tweeters. I've experimented with Celestion HF1300 tweeters with their virtually hornless pressure-chamber arrays in the past. Removing them reduces efficiency, but also removes a distinct sharpness from the acceleration of the air molecules – possibly caused by turbulences and inner reflections (hard to differentiate in such micro-acoustics anyway). A lot of other corresponding experiences during my speaker-building area have confirmed the importance of minimal reflections. The best high-frequency reproduction I've heard was from a pair of freely radiating plasma tweeters (prototypes), whereas the radically caged Magnat counterparts sounded disappointingly metallic and lost all the goodness of an earlier prototype. (Unfortunately the metal grids around them are necessary against ozone and radio waves.)
 
Yes, I'm a bit skeptic about the resonant behavior of the wire grids as well. But if this problem can be solved, the design looks promising in terms of sound quality.

Well, the analogy between the influence of a "phase piece" on tweeter directivity and the that of a perforated panel in front of a large planar surface does not make much sense to me I'm afraid.
 
Also, there really is no such thing as turbulences going on, acoustics is NOT airflow. You have to get to very small gaps to start seeing viscosity effects (but there certainly are and this supposedly affects the effective damping of the diaphragm). 
 
The term "micro-acoustics" also does not make sense to me, acoustics is acoustics. Geometric features that are much smaller than acoustic wavelength have little influence on sound diffraction and such. I don't doubt phase plugs like the Celestion tweeter you're referring to have a large influence on directivity and even radiation efficiency but these are very very very different things from a perforated stator. Perforated grills with >30% open area are acoustically transparent as long as perforations are much smaller than acoustic wavelength, simple acoustic simulations can show this.
 
I see the wire grid as more of a DIY approach to this electrode manufacturing problem. Contrast this to Sennheiser's work on the HE-1 electrodes (I had the chance to talk to Axel Grell about this), that was visibly some serious R&D to get to manufacture those electrodes. Hifiman really looks amateurish in comparison and, at this price, it's beyond ludicrous.
 
Arnaud

 

[JaZZ]

 

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

  From the looks. The holes of typical Stax stators as a whole represent less than half of the entire stator surface.
 
I was just trying to word succinctly. Of course more or less the whole produced sound gets through the stator grids, but their resistance against the air movement produces reflections, air accelerations and turbulences which all have audible effects. The ideal would be a free space around the membrane. It would make a huge difference to the sound. A good example for the effect are protective grids covering dome tweeters (also used to shape the sound characteristic). And pressure-chamber arrays such as in horn tweeters. I've experimented with Celestion HF1300 tweeters with their virtually hornless pressure-chamber arrays in the past. Removing them reduces efficiency, but also removes a distinct sharpness from the acceleration of the air molecules – possibly caused by turbulences and inner reflections (hard to differentiate in such micro-acoustics anyway). A lot of other corresponding experiences during my speaker-building area have confirmed the importance of minimal reflections. The best high-frequency reproduction I've heard was from a pair of freely radiating plasma tweeters (prototypes), whereas the radically caged Magnat counterparts sounded disappointingly metallic and lost all the goodness of an earlier prototype. (Unfortunately the metal grids around them are necessary against ozone and radio waves.)
 
Yes, I'm a bit skeptic about the resonant behavior of the wire grids as well. But if this problem can be solved, the design looks promising in terms of sound quality.

 

Well, the analogy between the influence of a "phase piece" on tweeter directivity and the that of a perforated panel in front of a large planar surface does not make much sense to me I'm afraid.
 
Also, there really is no such thing as turbulences going on, acoustics is NOT airflow. You have to get to very small gaps to start seeing viscosity effects (but there certainly are and this supposedly affects the effective damping of the diaphragm). 
 
The term "micro-acoustics" also does not make sense to me, acoustics is acoustics. Geometric features that are much smaller than acoustic wavelength have little influence on sound diffraction and such. I don't doubt phase plugs like the Celestion tweeter you're referring to have a large influence on directivity and even radiation efficiency but these are very very very different things from a perforated stator. Perforated grills with >30% open area are acoustically transparent as long as perforations are much smaller than acoustic wavelength, simple acoustic simulations can show this.
 
I see the wire grid as more of a DIY approach to this electrode manufacturing problem. Contrast this to Sennheiser's work on the HE-1 electrodes (I had the chance to talk to Axel Grell about this), that was visibly some serious R&D to get to manufacture those electrodes. Hifiman really looks amateurish in comparison and, at this price, it's beyond ludicrous.
 
Arnaud

 
Arnaud, you've completely misinterpreted all of my points. I wasn't talking of «phase pieces/plugs», but effective protection grids. Acoustics is air flow if it implicates accelerated air molecules, particularly when interacting with sharp edges, which effectively cause turbulences (think bass-reflex tubes and the measures to suppress them by rounding the output openings). The term «micro-acoustics» for the events within the pressure chamber (not phase plug!) of the Celestion tweeter has been chosen to illustrate the small space and the short runtimes in it, so inner reflections and tubulences/friction effects can't be separated as different effects anymore.
 

Perforated grills with >30% open area are acoustically transparent as long as perforations are much smaller than acoustic wavelength, simple acoustic simulations can show this.

 
I'd like to encourage you to an experiment. Try to find some sort of (wire) grid with this characteristic and place it in front of a tweeter, if possible bent in a way to get it as close as possible on the entire surface. Then post your impressions!
 
All in all it seems to me your attitude towards my arguments, especially in front of a HiFiMan product, is not entirely neutral and impartial – am I right?