Hifiman Edition X
May 18, 2018 at 1:28 AM Post #3,376 of 4,030
Anyone have both the HEXv2 and the 400i? Could you compare them for impact? I've taken the AFO out of the return box as I'm getting annoyed by the 400i. It lacks impact, which the AFO doesn't. Unfortunately I find the AFO to lack some of the "magic" of the HEXv2, although it delivers where I don't recall the HEXv2 delivering. I'm satisfied by the weight of the AFO's sound, and it goes beyond bass. Have to resort to broad words like impact and dynamism, whatever the latter means. I could commit the cardinal sin from an outside perspective and keep both the AFO and a HEXv2 to compliment one another, but I can't help but consider this dumb, at least at the moment. Another option is to stretch further up to say $1800 for one headphone, but there are no candidates. I went to listen to the Focal Clear yet again, and while I can spot its superiority to the AFO it both takes things a little too far and lacks the special qualities of the HEXv2. I so want to buy that headphone but it just doesn't sound right to me. Tried the Audeze LCD-3 again, this time it sounded better, a middle-ground, smoother than the Clear, but just not worth it at $1950 as it didn't sound to me like it matched areas where other headphones excel (by the way, what the hell is "b-stock"?). The Ether Flow occurred to me, but sage Tyll claims they actually sound worse to him than the newer AFO. I really am puzzled how at these price tags there aren't great all-around headphones.

you will never find a perfect headphone. your tastes/preferences over headphones are not static, they evolve over time like something else. Just listen. If you are bored, sell it, and buy something else. And repeat it forever.
 
Last edited:
May 18, 2018 at 2:11 AM Post #3,378 of 4,030
Well, for what it's worth I don't. I plan to get a closed headphone and a better amp and call it a day, at least for a while. I'm not a collector or anything.

The thing about no headphone being perfect is spot on. Find the compromises you can live with.

As for the Ananda it's a tough decision if you're deciding between that or the V2 for sure. If you can find the strength to wait, I think it's worth waiting for reviews and measurements. Then again, it's unlikely to be much better and may simply be different.
 
Last edited:
May 18, 2018 at 10:24 PM Post #3,379 of 4,030
How do the HE-1000 v2 compare to the HEXv2?

Any thoughts on cables for the HEXv2, by the way? Could the Dragon cables on Moon Audio do something significant? The Black Dragon in particular maybe?

So the Silver cable is the most expensive one, and... well, from the standard description it doesn't sound right for the HEXv2. Yet there's this page:

https://www.moon-audio.com/chord-mojo-plus-hifiman-edition-x-bundle.html

This headphone cable was made specifically for the HiFiMan Edition X and HE-1000 headphones.

The black cable seemed to make more sense from the standard description for fuller sound and more bass, and there's this page:

https://www.moon-audio.com/black-dr...iman-he-1000-headphones-v2-by-moon-audio.html

Even recommended it for someone's HEXv2.

Do these wise-asses make all their cables for Hifiman headphones or what? Curiously not there in the standard descriptions, try a couple of google searches and all of a sudden both cables were basically made for this headphone. After some more searching they do seem to offer the Black for many different headphones specifically... why would they claim the Silver cable was specifically made for these particular Hifiman headphones?

Here's what one reviewer claims about that premium Black cable, although apparently the basic one is essentially the same:

I bought this cable for my HIFIMAN Edition X V2. I had email exchanges with Drew to decide which cable to go for. He advised me to get the Black Dragon and I'm really happy with my choice. The changes are subtle but they are the changes I wanted. I felt the Edition X were a bit too smooth for my taste and the sound felt a bit too distant at times. This cable tighten things up overall and made the sound more immediate if that is the right description. Again, it's a subtle change. The build quality is excellent and the delivery was quick.

Makes sense with the general description of better bass and fuller sound. Ok. How subtle are we talking about here? And how the hell was the Silver cable made specifically for the HEX and HE-1000 nonetheless?

Is this snake oil? I'm willing to spend the extra money if there's an appreciable effect.

This is with the Black v2, which is the non-premium cable:

Bravo with the HiFiMan Edition X!
March 15, 2016 by Jack
“This cable is incredible!

I was somewhat disappointed in the lower end of my HiFi Edition X until Drew's cable arrived. The bottom end not only reaches deeper but the speed of every note seems to have increased.

I'm not at all surprised since Moon has recabled each of my favorite cans with similar results Ultrasone Ed 8, Fostex TH900, and Oppo PM3 .”

So here's the thing:

Acquired the BD V2 balanced cable for my LCD-2. Already had the Silver Dragons and found those too bright for my classical recordings, but excellent for single vocals and some rock (Pink Floyd, Queen). Put the BDs through about 60 hrs play-time before critical listening. I used: CDs played back on my Bryston BCD-1 and LCD-2 balanced connected to my BHA-1 head amp.

The BD, as Drew stated, adds a fuller, more rounded sound with increased warmth and bass response, compared to the SD. For many of my classical recordings, such as Bach (Voice and Violin, Hilary Hahn, DG label), Beethoven (Piano Cto #5, Ashkenazy, Vienna PO, DG), and Schutz (Musikalische Exquien, Herreweghe, Mundi CD), the BD tamed the brightness in these recordings, as heard on my LCD-2. Soundstage was excellent, and I could hear the separation of voices and instruments in Bach's "Violin and Voice" CD. On the other hand, for many of my orchestral recordings (e.g. Beethoven Symphonies on CD), I preferred the greater detail and air provided by my SD cable. Instrumental separation in these complex recordings simply needed a cable with more high-end and mid-range detailing, and the SD was it. However....the Black Dragon could still provide decent detailing with added warmth for the strings and brass. Also, I preferred the BD for my female vocal recordings (e.g. Pat Barber, Melody Gardot, Renee Fleming, Barbara Bonney), as it gives added nuance while reducing sibilance. With rock, the BDs kicked butt. hands down (e.g. Mezzanine, Floyd, Dire Straits, Springsteen, Roy Orbison).

So, it's a difficult call. For me, there is no one-cable-does-it-all for all my recordings. But I do give the Black Dragon cable my strongest recommendation as an all-rounder with multiple genres of music. With a SD cable, and LCD-2, I am all set for audio excellence on 'cans!

I was reading the Silver cable improves soundstage... can't be arsed to verify exactly, basically playing to the HEXv2's strengths, not its weaknesses. Well, I think it also improves treble, so if that's deemed a weakness then it might work for that. But is treble really more of an issue than bass and impact for the HEXv2? Why the hell would they make the Silver cable specifically for these headphones, which sounds like a lie to be honest? Is the stock cable some sort of silver cable too...?

The Black, on the other hand, is supposed to tame treble, which I find concerning.

It seems what I was reading about the Silver cable comes from yet another premium page where supposedly the cable is made specifically for a headphone. Good grief.

I'm definitely open to suggestions, experiences, and knowledge.
 
Last edited:
May 18, 2018 at 11:49 PM Post #3,380 of 4,030
How do the HE-1000 v2 compare to the HEXv2?

Any thoughts on cables for the HEXv2, by the way? Could the Dragon cables on Moon Audio do something significant? The Black Dragon in particular maybe?

So the Silver cable is the most expensive one, and... well, from the standard description it doesn't sound right for the HEXv2. Yet there's this page:

https://www.moon-audio.com/chord-mojo-plus-hifiman-edition-x-bundle.html



The black cable seemed to make more sense from the standard description for fuller sound and more bass, and there's this page:

https://www.moon-audio.com/black-dr...iman-he-1000-headphones-v2-by-moon-audio.html

Even recommended it for someone's HEXv2.

Do these wise-asses make all their cables for Hifiman headphones or what? Curiously not there in the standard descriptions, try a couple of google searches and all of a sudden both cables were basically made for this headphone. After some more searching they do seem to offer the Black for many different headphones specifically... why would they claim the Silver cable was specifically made for these particular Hifiman headphones?

Here's what one reviewer claims about that premium Black cable, although apparently the basic one is essentially the same:



Makes sense with the general description of better bass and fuller sound. Ok. How subtle are we talking about here? And how the hell was the Silver cable made specifically for the HEX and HE-1000 nonetheless?

Is this snake oil? I'm willing to spend the extra money if there's an appreciable effect.

This is with the Black v2, which is the non-premium cable:



So here's the thing:



I was reading the Silver cable improves soundstage... can't be arsed to verify exactly, basically playing to the HEXv2's strengths, not its weaknesses. Well, I think it also improves treble, so if that's deemed a weakness then it might work for that. But is treble really more of an issue than bass and impact for the HEXv2? Why the hell would they make the Silver cable specifically for these headphones, which sounds like a lie to be honest? Is the stock cable some sort of silver cable too...?

The Black, on the other hand, is supposed to tame treble, which I find concerning.

It seems what I was reading about the Silver cable comes from yet another premium page where supposedly the cable is made specifically for a headphone. Good grief.

I'm definitely open to suggestions, experiences, and knowledge.

I have so many issues with cable swapping and improving sound. For example with this headphone. Listen with the back of the cup pushed back as much as possible. Then slowly slide the cups forward. The sound will change, a good bit. Same thing happens with height. What about pad swapping or light modding can improve sound for little to nothing, and improve comfort. V1 owners can probably tell us about just the straight to angled change difference. Hell, buy a Schiit Loki for $200 and tweak the EQ a bit.

Cables are expensive, and my electrical background gives me enough reason to bow out of the upgrade cable game. People are free to spend their money however they want. It's cool looking, $50, go for it. It's $1,500, buy a new headphone or other toy! That's just my thoughts though. I'm not rich.
 
Last edited:
May 19, 2018 at 1:10 AM Post #3,381 of 4,030
I have so many issues with cable swapping and improving sound. For example with this headphone. Listen with the back of the cup pushed back as much as possible. Then slowly slide the cups forward. The sound will change, a good bit. Same thing happens with height. What about pad swapping or light modding can improve sound for little to nothing, and improve comfort. V1 owners can probably tell us about just the straight to angled change difference. Hell, buy a Schiit Loki for $200 and tweak the EQ a bit.

Cables are expensive, and my electrical background gives me enough reason to bow out of the upgrade cable game. People are free to spend their money however they want. It's cool looking, $50, go for it. It's $1,500, buy a new headphone or other toy! That's just my thoughts though. I'm not rich.

I understand the skepticism regarding cable swapping, even if I do not entirely share it. However, the Edition XV2 has the astonishing disadvantage of not having come with any kind of stock balanced cable option, even though, on some HP amps, replacing the stock cable with a 4-pin balanced cable does make an immediately noticeable, and quite dramatic, difference to the sq. on different levels. I verified this myself, when I had the XV2, by replacing the stock SE cable with my 4--pin balanced Sennheiser CH-700S cable (which is meant for the HD 700). I tried it balanced on both my Violectric V281 and Bryston 2b LP, and in both cases, the difference was not at all subtle. All that immediately did was make me wonder why Hifiman would shoot themselves in the foot, so to speak, by not including a 4-pin balanced cable in the XV2 package as an option, especially given how much these cans cost...

With all that said, experimenting with their stock balanced cables, even when they're are included, reveal weaknesses when compared with other types of cables. I have experienced that difference too with both the He-6 and the He-1000 by replacing the stock with different cables from Norne Audio, but that is another story altogether, which is better left for another context, since I do not want to go off the topic of the Edition X.

My point here is that the non-inclusion of a balanced cable in the XV2 package renders one essential because of the important difference it can make when used with some amps on which the balanced outputs are enhanced for better performance than the SE outputs.
 
Last edited:
May 19, 2018 at 1:17 AM Post #3,382 of 4,030
I've seen comments that Hifiman intentionally doesn't provide a balanced cable as the likelihood for the headphone to be overpowered increases. Don't know what the ultimate source was. In my case I'd prefer to stick with unbalanced cables for the time being, don't have a dac/amp for that and if there's an increased likelihood for trouble that's bothersome.
 
May 19, 2018 at 1:30 AM Post #3,383 of 4,030
Why do they include balanced cables in the He-1000 and He-6 packages then? Incidentally, they also did not include a balanced cable in the He-500, but I have been using it with a balanced cable for years now, and there has been zero risk of the Cans being overpowered. I have to say that I never crank up the volume to ear-splitting levels on any amp when using cans, and if there is a danger of headphones being overpowered, that is where it would lie rather than whether they're using balanced or singled ended connectors. I do not see how one can avoid overloading a pair of cans by using Single ended cables, if one is reckless with the volume dial.

For the record, I did bring up the issue of balanced cables with the XV2 because the SE cables were making it sound very "constipated," (if that is the word) on several levels, as compared to balanced cables on the two amps I have mentioned (I forgot to mention my GO2PRO SE, which also yielded the same skewed balanced vs unbalanced results with the XV2).

Also I shall also say this, without wanting to be controversial or start some argument. Hifiman do make some great sounding headphones, but they're generally not great at supply cables with their cans that optimize their performance. In my experience, this holds for the He 400i, the He-6, the XV2, and the He-1000 v1 as well. I have no experience with the Susvara, but I just read a similar complaint about the Susvara stock cables too, which did not surprise me at all.

Of course, the experience may be different with other amps, and as we always say in audio, YMMV, so there is that too.
 
Last edited:
May 19, 2018 at 11:28 AM Post #3,384 of 4,030
Why do they include balanced cables in the He-1000 and He-6 packages then? Incidentally, they also did not include a balanced cable in the He-500, but I have been using it with a balanced cable for years now, and there has been zero risk of the Cans being overpowered. I have to say that I never crank up the volume to ear-splitting levels on any amp when using cans, and if there is a danger of headphones being overpowered, that is where it would lie rather than whether they're using balanced or singled ended connectors. I do not see how one can avoid overloading a pair of cans by using Single ended cables, if one is reckless with the volume dial.

For the record, I did bring up the issue of balanced cables with the XV2 because the SE cables were making it sound very "constipated," (if that is the word) on several levels, as compared to balanced cables on the two amps I have mentioned (I forgot to mention my GO2PRO SE, which also yielded the same skewed balanced vs unbalanced results with the XV2).

Also I shall also say this, without wanting to be controversial or start some argument. Hifiman do make some great sounding headphones, but they're generally not great at supply cables with their cans that optimize their performance. In my experience, this holds for the He 400i, the He-6, the XV2, and the He-1000 v1 as well. I have no experience with the Susvara, but I just read a similar complaint about the Susvara stock cables too, which did not surprise me at all.

Of course, the experience may be different with other amps, and as we always say in audio, YMMV, so there is that too.

It really comes down to efficiency:

HEK: 35 ohm, 90dB/1mW
HEX: 25 ohm, 103dB/ 1mW
HE6: 50 ohm, 83.5dB/1mW

The HE6 needs ~EIGHT times the power to play at the same volume as the HEX.
The HEK needs ~4.5 times the power of the HEX to play at the same volume.

I like translating headphone power to speaker power, just to point out how absurd overpowering CAN be (It is sometimes very much needed). Lets use the Schiit Jot, as it is cheap, a true balanced amp, and popular. With the HEX, it will be putting out over 6W into its 25 ohm load. No big deal right? Headphones are 1,000 times more efficient than speakers (Similar listening levels- Speakers at 1W, headphones 1mW). Would you put over 6,000 watts into your stereo speakers? It is FAR beyond overkill, and the likelihood of accidentally damaging the HEX increases exponentially. Balanced for portable could make great sense, but for home use I have no need.

Now the HE6 is a different animal. Right off the bat with the higher impedance, the Jot is down to 3W. Just to get the HE6 to play at the same level as the HEX at 1mW, the HE6 already needs ~240mW!!!!! Every 3dB increase from here forward for both headphones, requires a doubling of amplifier power. The HEX is still in the easy, almost free doubling area still. The HE6 is now getting into the quickly diminishing territory where power is being gobbled up.

My goals with this hobby are to enjoy music. I rarely do critical listening, and I don't want the greatest detail because of the music I listen to (HEX is really just about as perfect as I have heard so far). We all do this for our own reasons, but once in a while it is nice to put perspective to some of it. The power race is getting insane IMO. Why buy a 10W amp if you always keep it in the lowest gain setting to drive the HEX? You paid for a lot of things in that amp that you didn't need essentially (large heavy metal heat sinks, expensive transformers, etc). Future proofing can be smart if you know you'll need it down the road, but will you REALLY need it? In general I run from the really inefficient designs (speakers and headphones). There are so many awesome sounding, efficient designs out there. I want more amp choices, not less.
 
May 19, 2018 at 4:36 PM Post #3,386 of 4,030
It really comes down to efficiency:

HEK: 35 ohm, 90dB/1mW
HEX: 25 ohm, 103dB/ 1mW
HE6: 50 ohm, 83.5dB/1mW

The HE6 needs ~EIGHT times the power to play at the same volume as the HEX.
The HEK needs ~4.5 times the power of the HEX to play at the same volume.

I like translating headphone power to speaker power, just to point out how absurd overpowering CAN be (It is sometimes very much needed). Lets use the Schiit Jot, as it is cheap, a true balanced amp, and popular. With the HEX, it will be putting out over 6W into its 25 ohm load. No big deal right? Headphones are 1,000 times more efficient than speakers (Similar listening levels- Speakers at 1W, headphones 1mW). Would you put over 6,000 watts into your stereo speakers? It is FAR beyond overkill, and the likelihood of accidentally damaging the HEX increases exponentially. Balanced for portable could make great sense, but for home use I have no need.

Now the HE6 is a different animal. Right off the bat with the higher impedance, the Jot is down to 3W. Just to get the HE6 to play at the same level as the HEX at 1mW, the HE6 already needs ~240mW!!!!! Every 3dB increase from here forward for both headphones, requires a doubling of amplifier power. The HEX is still in the easy, almost free doubling area still. The HE6 is now getting into the quickly diminishing territory where power is being gobbled up.
nd
My goals with this hobby are to enjoy music. I rarely do critical listening, and I don't want the greatest detail because of the music I listen to (HEX is really just about as perfect as I have heard so far). We all do this for our own reasons, but once in a while it is nice to put perspective to some of it. The power race is getting insane IMO. Why buy a 10W amp if you always keep it in the lowest gain setting to drive the HEX? You paid for a lot of things in that amp that you didn't need essentially (large heavy metal heat sinks, expensive transformers, etc). Future proofing can be smart if you know you'll need it down the road, but will you REALLY need it? In general I run from the really inefficient designs (speakers and headphones). There are so many awesome sounding, efficient designs out there. I want more amp choices, not less.

I am familiar with these numbers and specs about sensitivity and impedance, and, to that extent, I am frankly not surprised that you have brought them up, but do they adequately explain why a balanced cable may or may not be required, as hifiman allegedly claims? Personally, I don't buy it, any of it, because even within Hifiman's own canon of cans, that logic does not seem to apply consistently, as demonstrated by the specs of the He-500, which I also have:

He-500 38 ohms, 89db/1mw

He-K 35 ohms, 90db/1mw

Going by these specs, the He-500 should be slightly harder to drive than the He-K, and yet it is rather my He-K which came with hifiman's stock balanced cable... The He-500 did not, which makes me suspect that they were simply trying to keep costs down, by excluding the balanced cable, as opposed to caring about that rather dubious risk of "overpowering" the He-500. I have got to say that I find this idea of "overpowering" associated with balanced cables particularly fishy, since it actually depends on how much power the user manually pumps into the cans, as opposed to the innate specs of any particular amp. Regarding the HeXV2, in particular, an example from Audeze might be interesting here

Audeze LCD-X 20 ohms, 103db/1mw

HEX: 25 ohm, 103dB/ 1mW

The Audeze LCD-X has a slightly lower impedance rating than the HeX, and the same sensitivity rating, which should make the HeX the harder to drive pair of the two (albeit by only a slight margin), yet Audeze includes a 4-pin balanced XLR cable in the the LCD-X's retail package, making it compatible with a wider, more versatile range of amps than the He-X. Does this inclusion of a balanced cable introduce any risk of overpowering the cans, a risk which will not be there without a balanced cable? Frankly, I think not... With speakers as with headphones, the risk of overdriving or overpowering resides in how one manages the power that is actually feeding the transducers, and not with the innate capacities of the amps themselves, nor with the balanced/unbalanced status of the cables.

Regarding power requirements, I have to say that I had all my high powered amps before I got either the HeX or the LCD-X, because the He-6 and the Sennheiser HD 600 and HD 800 were the cans I started needing amps for. Yet these same amps have never posed risks to the LCD-X or the HeX (when I still had it), in the same way as my 600w/8 Ohms monoblock amps have posed no risks to the 250w. 88db Tower speakers they' have been driving . I have in fact been told that, when it comes to speakers, more power is often much better than less for the quality of the listening experience, because of the headroom more power provides, allowing the speaker to "breathe" so to speak, but I digress.

When it comes to managing the power requirements of my headphones, I simply use a commonsensical loudness management approach, and everything works out nicely. In my listening practices, loudness is not a big priority... I value the richness, refinement, and nuances of the sound a lot more (which does not mean that I necessarily listen at excessively low volumes either)... But here is the kicker : with all the amps I have, and playing at the same loudness levels, using a balanced cable with the HeX produces a far richer listening experience than the stock single-ended cable ( I mean "richness" in width/depth of the soundstage, in the extension at both ends of the spectrum, the quality of the mids, in detail extraction, crispness, airiness, instrument separation etc etc). The differences were substantial enough to dissuade me from ever wanting to listen to these cans in unbalanced SE mode again, on these particular amps.

To be fair, all the amps I am referring to come equipped with both fully balanced, as well as unbalanced SE circuitries, and it is possible that this kind of topology deliberately designs the balanced circuitry to produce a sound that is superior to that of the unbalanced one. In other words, I do not know how the HeX will fare on an amp that is exclusively furnished with an unbalanced single-ended circuitry.

One last thing : I have been an active headphone enthusiast now for almost 10 years, and a speaker system enthusiast for decades... I have used the same listening and loudness/power management practices I have outlined above throughout those years for speakers and headphones, and I have never overdriven or blown any speaker or headphones... , which explains my deep skepticism regarding Hifiman's alleged claims linking balanced cables with the risk of overpowering headphones.

One more time, as we always say, YMMV.
 
May 19, 2018 at 4:45 PM Post #3,387 of 4,030
Dude, what you're describing isn't a listening and loudness/power management practice, it is your personal preference to listen at lower volumes that clearly isn't universal. Those of us who prefer to listen at louder volumes don't find much use to what you're saying. Of course you haven't overdriven anything. Same as with the low gain no one has answered my question about turning up the volume for asmr (low-level or quieter noises) either. The one part I find interesting is the specs of the Audeze headphone. Does it come with a warning about not overpowering it? Is it possible impedance and efficiency don't provide the full picture?
 
May 19, 2018 at 5:54 PM Post #3,388 of 4,030
The Audeze does not come with any warnings that I know of about overpowering. It is commonly known, however, that it is like the He-x, in that it requires no amp to drive it, and can be used straight out of hand-held devices, computers, and DAPs, although an external amp can normally still add some significant enhancement to the performance. At any rate, what i have said about power management practices, and balanced cables etc. etc. is commonly known among enthusiasts, so I have said nothing that is particularly new or original here.

Also I do not know any other way to measure or state power requirements, beyond the usual sensitivity, impedance, and WPC ratings.

Finally, I do not want the mention of listening at relatively low volumes to mislead anyone. For speakers, my preferred levels is somewhere between 80db and 85dbs, and that range probably best qualifies as "normal" (meaning neither too high nor too low)... I just wanted to stress that I do not enjoy playing music at levels of loudness that hurt or fatigue my ears... It does not necessarily mean that I listen at lower-than-normal volumes... And yes, words such as "loud," "normal," etc etc primarily refer to my personal preferences, as they should be since they are all relative quantities or qualities, colored by personal preferences

That personal part is why I always append the "YMMV" tag ("Your mileage may vary") to my impressions and evaluations, in case you have not noticed it :)

Lastly, I do not have the expertise to answer your question about low gain and high volume. When it comes to gain settings on my amps, I usually play it safe by selecting the default setting suggested by the manufacturer (which is "0", or unity gain on my V281, for example), when dealing with high sensitivity cans, and high gain when dealing with relatively low sensitivity cans...
But that does not exactly address your question.
 
May 19, 2018 at 6:35 PM Post #3,390 of 4,030
Lastly, I do not have the expertise to answer your question about low gain and high volume. When it comes to gain settings on my amps, I usually play it safe by selecting the default setting suggested by the manufacturer (which is "0", or unity gain on my V281, for example), when dealing with high sensitivity cans, and high gain when dealing with relatively low sensitivity cans...
But that does not exactly address your question.

I've read online that gain doesn't affect power, which leads me to believe low gain is more dangerous. This would suggest the opposite.

Looking for headphones to compliment my Focal Clear and he 400.
Should I go with lcd3 or edition x
Thx

The HEXv2 contrasts more to the Clear than the LCD-3. You'll get better separation with the HEX and the sound will be generally "softer". Vocals should remain high quality. I think the LCD-3 is more of a middle-ground, and thus perhaps not the best complement.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top