[Mystel]

   
The devaluation on the used market is a much better indicator than MSRP/RRP of actual value for the sound AND build quality. Look at HEK, Audeze LCD-whatever and SR-009 for example. Abyss coming down in price so much on the used market actually makes a good argument and proves the point of how ridiculously overpriced the MSRP is, especially the first manbag edition. 

Well to be fair i never did say that the abyss is worth its MSRP, im just saying that at least its built decently.
But my main point was that we cant just assume this is gonna be better than another headphone like the abyss for some. 
Cheers

 

[Philimon]

Hifiman is embarrassing. I'm glad Fang is making dough but I wish he didn't have to be so dishonest. I don't wish Hifiman success with this thing.

 

[anetode]

 
Shangri-La and Edition 6's metal parts were made from CNC. CNC such complicated parts cost a lot more than any tooling procedure. So Edition 6 estimated building cost is actually 3 to 5 times than HE1000.  
 

 
So like $300-$500?

 

[zeissiez]

In that case Microsoft software should cost Zero, since now installation is disc-less, there's Zero hardware. Intellectual cost, my friend. The end results to your ears.

 

[Nankai]

Sound quality is the most important point to build a headphone. If there are two choices, one benefit sound quality, the other benefit looking, I will choose sound quality. Comfort and reliability is also important. We have to minimize total weight to make sure you can ware the headphone for hours. We custom-build veneer plywood earcup from a layer by layer wood veneer using our own tooling . This might be the only way to build a earcup sound like wood tone, and light as well as reliable:  HE1000 v2 can pass 1.5 to 2 meter high drop test. We did build real wood version with the best wood we could find, it crack after 1 meter drop test, and weight 50g heavier.
 
ShangriLa and Edition 6 metal parts were made from CNC. Because the inner structure is so sophistic, it takes a long time to build. CNC vendor charge on hours, so that these two headphones cost a lot more than any other headphones we built.  Yes, hifiman does make some money. I have to say, hifiman product building cost is much higher than a lot of simple structure but fancy looking cans.  
 
To be honest, I know most supply chains that you guys believe should be expensively built. I even heard about their manufacturing quantity in some models. As far as I heard about, I don't think we were kicked out from hi-end headphone market. 
 
I did have a NDA with the Beryllium foil vendor earlier last year so that I can not talk about Beryllium foil cost. However, HIFIMAN team does nano diaphragm by ourselves. Some might believe that, because of the sin of made-in-China, no matter how the coating/diaphragm work is, should not worth $XXX amount money. I can understand your thinking, but I can not agree.
 
Btw, I did have a little CVD experience when I was in my PhD program. If the discussion situation really force me to do it, I can do some experiement in hifiman lab, or, if needed, my previous lab in Nankai University, the top 3 Chemistry dept in China,  testing some properties of different material, including a Beryllium foil.  
 
CNC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_control
 
Fang

 

[Beolab]

Are you using the 600i as a headphone amp? If so, how are you connecting to it and what are your impressions?

Hi!

The whole text i wrote is based on the setup you were quoting from my post, so just read again please:

And yes the Moon 600i i the best amp regardless for headphone use even it is a High End speaker amp, but i have a great contact with the designer on SimAudio that say it is perfectly fine to use it with headphones. Everything with this amp is so overly built and solid vs a High End headphone amp, that feels like a crappy cheap toy in comparison.

Then i use a DHC custome made Flagella Speaker adapter 4x Banana connectors - 4pin XLR .



I am a reseller of a variety hand picked High End brands, and got great connections in the HiFi / HeadFi market, and i can be truly honest when i say that i have tested many many headphones, but mainly focus on 1500 USD - 6000 USD range. I have the oppertunity to listen and own every single TOTL headphone.
Incl. the Senn Orpheus HE-1.

I got a 50.000$+ HEADPHONE rig in my house consisting of Moon 600i Dual Mono amp ( Previously HeadTrip , Woo , and many more) , Aurender W20 Streamer, Isotek power, Chord DAVE , ( MSB Analog optional dac ) , DHC Prion 4S headphone cable , DHC Flagella SPEAKER ADAPTER , Transparent Ref 5 XLR and more..

All of this is connected to a pare of Abyss!

They may not be the ultra best when it comes to the midrange presentation, here the Focal Utopia is the best in the world on midrange, , and the Abyss got some flaws hear and there, yes they do, but the overal sound is the best money can buy connected to this statement rig. The scale very appropiate to what you feed them with, but can also sound very moving and magically with just a Ifi iDSD Micro Black Label also.

They sound on pair or better with HD800 when it comes to resolution / imaging / soundstage and on pair with SR-009 when we look at resolution layering , depht , clarity, and outrun every headphone on the market when it comes to the ultra fine out-of-the-head visceral low end with a magic tone, and the play with great room and atmosphere that no one else.

And if i would rank the buildquality i have to say not many headphones got deacent buildquality in comparision to a pair of High End speakers , Amps , DACs etc etc.

I find the Utopia / Abyss / SR-009 / LCD-4 / Sony ZR-1 to be good, and there is no better
, but they all could be one or to notch better year 2017.

I actually think the Abyss will over live them all, because they are made of one solid alu block and got no moving parts, and is very solid, and i do think they make up for their price.

 

[Yugo]

If design and build quality isn't such a priority, how about pricing your products more sensibly instead of just being competitive. People care about value Dr. Fang, more so than u think. If the HEK is priced at the original HE6 range, or let's say $1999, I think it will have much better general reception overall. If you price the ED6 at the current HEK price of 3k, I can guarantee u there will be much fewer bashing. Besides you already have a Halo product, the Shangri-La. Why so hastily release yet another one? The current state of ED6 with the price tag of 6k is simply embarrassing. To carry a 6k price tag you need a lot more than just outstanding sound. It's just not good enough to ignore aesthetics at this point. Why release a product that simply looks half finished? If it cost too much to produce how about just develop it for a bit longer while refreshing your lower cost product lines?

 

[Nankai]

HIFIMAN headphones are not for everyone. We don't build for looking, we build for listening. .If you think sound quality worth its price, go ahead and buy it. The problem is that, in this thread, almost nobody ever listened or even saw the real sample. 
 
Let me share you a secret: Edition 6 CES sample was made of real wood, not veneer plywood. Real wood is actually easier to build than veneer plywood. The sample looks so nice that most visitors in CES tell me your headphone looking improved so much. Even the security guard who knows zero about headphones was impressed when we take them to our show room. If you can not judge a earcup was made of real wood or veneer plywood from such a photo, how come you can comment the real headphone looks good or not? 
 
The finished Edition 6 will change to veneer plywood earcup, because I can not stay with CES sample which weight 510g. Veneer plywood structure also sound better, esp. in bass. 

 

[mandrake50]

I think it is mostly the shock of the price... and people don't have much productive to do. I will wait for reviews from some trusted people, and maybe one day (RMAF 2017) to listen myself. As well as touch and feel and closely observe the build quality and comfort. Then I will comment.

 

[Khragon]

  HIFIMAN headphones are not for everyone. We don't build for looking, we build for listening. .If you think sound quality worth its price, go ahead and buy it. The problem is that, in this thread, almost nobody ever listened or even saw the real sample. 
 
Let me share you a secret: Edition 6 CES sample was made of real wood, not veneer plywood. Real wood is actually easier to build than veneer plywood. The sample looks so nice that most visitors in CES tell me your headphone looking improved so much. Even the security guard who knows zero about headphones was impressed when we take them to our show room. If you can not judge a earcup was made of real wood or veneer plywood from such a photo, how come you can comment the real headphone looks good or not? 
 
The finished Edition 6 will change to veneer plywood earcup, because I can not stay with CES sample which weight 510g. Veneer plywood structure also sound better, esp. in bass. 

I'm curious on why the ED6 shape is the way it is.  What sound quality benefit does such a shape produce?  because to me the HE1000 is more pleasing to look at than the ED6 which is out of proportion and to be frank, hideous.  Also, if you can educate us on why/how veneer is better than realwood besides the weight saving, maybe reference to a study?  Also why real wood is more difficult to build than veneer?
 
Thanks.

 

[Nankai]

  I'm curious on why the ED6 shape is the way it is.  What sound quality benefit does such a shape produce?  because to me the HE1000 is more pleasing to look at than the ED6 which is out of proportion and to be frank, hideous.  Also, if you can educate us on why/how veneer is better than realwood besides the weight saving, maybe reference to a study?  Also why real wood is more difficult to build than veneer?
 
Thanks.

 
I don't want to say too much about the design work. All I want to say is that, it is not smart to make judgement based on a photo, not a real headphone.
Nature wood is easy because all you need to do is to go to wood vendor, send them the design file, select wood piece. Veneer plywood was hand made from layer by layer wood veneer pieces. We either use cherry or ebony. Before we start to put veneers together, we need to match them, make sure they come in the same batch (theoretically, from the same tree). Then we will need to put them on the tooling to shape them as the earcup. We do painting by ourselves as well. This custom-made plywood is extremely light, and reliable. As I told you before, HE1000 V2 can pass a 1.5 to 2 meter high drop test. Because plywood is such a solid material, we can make it very thin without worrying about reliability, so that there are more volume in the earcup than nature wood, which will benefit frequency response, esp. in low, comparing to the same size nature wood earcup with less volume. 

 

[mandrake50]

Meaning that with solid wood in the thickness required it is very fragile.  Which is something I know from making things (pens for instance) Out of various kinds of wood. The variety of grain in solid wood that makes it so beautiful is it's weakness as well.
 
AND the best, most dense, and sought after wood varieties are heavy.

 

[nvfan]

   
I did have a NDA with the Beryllium foil vendor earlier last year so that I can not talk about Beryllium foil cost. However, HIFIMAN team does nano diaphragm by ourselves. Some might believe that, because of the sin of made-in-China, no matter how the coating/diaphragm work is, should not worth $XXX amount money. I can understand your thinking, but I can not agree.
 
Btw, I did have a little CVD experience when I was in my PhD program. If the discussion situation really force me to do it, I can do some experiement in hifiman lab, or, if needed, my previous lab in Nankai University, the top 3 Chemistry dept in China,  testing some properties of different material, including a Beryllium foil.  

 
Is a Beryllium or CVD Diamond Hifiman headphone still planar, or will it be a dynamic?

 

[Yugo]

There is nothing wrong if you want to use veneer instead of real wood. Many high-end speakers also use wood veneers. But that is hardly my point. 

 

[Nankai]

   
Is a Beryllium or CVD Diamond Hifiman headphone still planar, or will it be a dynamic?

According current technology, Beryllium foil cannot reach nano thickness level. CVD is a very common technology. There are a lot of toys or electronics surface shining, which benefit from CVD coating. Its coating thickness is normally micro level. Hifiman have already use nano meter thickness diaphragm, and we don't have any plan to come back to micro.