[Tachyon88]

Why do you need a "constant" to compare against, in order to enjoy what you're hearing? I've never had that problem.

What problem ?

 

[jonathan c]

I didn't mean to open up a can of worms (a discussion is okay, let's not snipe at each other), but to simply say that I personally don't see the need to EQ every HP - unless it's lacking in one area or too excessive in another.

• With the word ‘any’ in lieu of ‘every’, I totally agree.
• I think of different headphones / amplifiers as analogous to different seats / tables at a musical event. The acoustics and the perspective will differ.
• I cannot bring ‘tube traps’, acoustic baffling, etc to the musical event for augmentation. In similar fashion, I experience the headphone ‘voicing’ as I hear it without equalisation. [One reason for my owning headphones]

 

[MardukSonofEa]

As a 3d artist, I specifically don't want my monitor to deviate much from a certain color gamut (even for just personal enjoyment) - and likewise with my headphones I don't want them to deviate much from the Harman data. There are plenty of other physical factors that determine the quality of a monitor or headphone - contrast ratio or sound stage characteristics for example. These can't be altered in the color space in monitors or with EQ in headphones. This is what makes a device special for me personally.

It's the classic objectivist vs subjectivist argument. Both can be wrong in different ways, but I think the objectivist view is a far more scientific approach, which makes the most sense to me personally. Subjectivist headphone users are far more prone to believe in headphone burn-in, magic cables that transform headphones, or buying very expensive equipment to get far better sound. Individual experiences and perspectives can be very unreliable for a myriad of reasons.

This monitor analogy is an interesting one. Human color vision has some variation for sure but probably not as much as hearing, given ear physiology is significantly more variable. Hence it's tricky to tune or test for the high treble frequencies - you wouldn't say that about certain color wavelengths, at least to nearly the same extent. So how a headphone sounds is going to be more subjective than how a monitor looks. I'm in the camp of thinking of Harman as a loose reference point, and average in a dataset with high standard deviation.

Now, I feel like the shade thrown in the second paragraph at subjectivists is a bit unnecessary. Also a little ironic to poo poo the notion that expensive equipment sounds better in a forum thread that's dedicated to how great a pair of $1600 headphones sound. Personally I like that I can come here to collect subjective opinions from other enthusiasts without drama and groupthink *cough Reddit cough*. I haven't been posting here long but I appreciate that generally people seem to be able to disagree without being disagreeable.

 

[cycloverid]

This monitor analogy is an interesting one. Human color vision has some variation for sure but probably not as much as hearing, given ear physiology is significantly more variable. Hence it's tricky to tune or test for the high treble frequencies - you wouldn't say that about certain color wavelengths, at least to nearly the same extent. So how a headphone sounds is going to be more subjective than how a monitor looks. I'm in the camp of thinking of Harman as a loose reference point, and average in a dataset with high standard deviation.

Now, I feel like the shade thrown in the second paragraph at subjectivists is a bit unnecessary. Also a little ironic to poo poo the notion that expensive equipment sounds better in a forum thread that's dedicated to how great a pair of $1600 headphones sound. Personally I like that I can come here to collect subjective opinions from other enthusiasts without drama and groupthink *cough Reddit cough*. I haven't been posting here long but I appreciate that generally people seem to be able to disagree without being disagreeable.

I agree that Harman is more of a good starting point over say, monitor color calibration. As a thought experiment though, if we had a high sample poll over neutral color calibration rather than math/physics, would we expect the average to be close to the current evaluation? This is sort of the 'wisdom of the crowd' perspective. Like guessing the number of marbles in a jar, the extremes average out closer to the exact number rather than any statistical individual sample point. There is some noise in there like you mentioned, like ear canal shape, etc. that will change this a bit. It has to be some combination of both these ideas don't you think?

Okay, I did throw some shade in that paragraph about subjectivists. My point about expensive equipment simply wasn't worded properly I think. I'll be the first to admit that the Arya has huge diminishing returns for the price compared to a good headphone that is far cheaper. The value for an audiophile is then just appreciating these differences, but I don't think you're getting close to 4-5X the performance. But yeah, I think anyone would agree that price doesn't 1:1 equate to performance, so this was a bit of a strawman. The other points I made weren't really shade I would say - I just haven't been convinced of the truth behind these claims. I do think people who are subjectivists are more likely to make these claims though.

 

[ezduzit2500]

I agree that Harman is more of a good starting point over say, monitor color calibration. As a thought experiment though, if we had a high sample poll over neutral color calibration rather than math/physics, would we expect the average to be close to the current evaluation? This is sort of the 'wisdom of the crowd' perspective. Like guessing the number of marbles in a jar, the extremes average out closer to the exact number rather than any statistical individual sample point. There is some noise in there like you mentioned, like ear canal shape, etc. that will change this a bit. It has to be some combination of both these ideas don't you think?

Okay, I did throw some shade in that paragraph about subjectivists. My point about expensive equipment simply wasn't worded properly I think. I'll be the first to admit that the Arya has huge diminishing returns for the price compared to a good headphone that is far cheaper. The value for an audiophile is then just appreciating these differences, but I don't think you're getting close to 4-5X the performance. But yeah, I think anyone would agree that price doesn't 1:1 equate to performance, so this was a bit of a strawman. The other points I made weren't really shade I would say - I just haven't been convinced of the truth behind these claims. I do think people who are subjectivists are more likely to make these claims though.

My Class A amp sounds different from the THX IC amps I've tried....and my 8-core SPC XLR headphone cable sounds different from my copper XLR too. Ditto with my discrete op amps, DAC filters, DPLL settings, and other DAC settings too. Small differences that add up to having great sound quality but also variety. Of course, YMMV.

 

[MardukSonofEa]

I agree that Harman is more of a good starting point over say, monitor color calibration. As a thought experiment though, if we had a high sample poll over neutral color calibration rather than math/physics, would we expect the average to be close to the current evaluation? This is sort of the 'wisdom of the crowd' perspective. Like guessing the number of marbles in a jar, the extremes average out closer to the exact number rather than any statistical individual sample point. There is some noise in there like you mentioned, like ear canal shape, etc. that will change this a bit. It has to be some combination of both these ideas don't you think?

I agree - would be interesting. My wife always makes fun of my color vision - maybe I'd be embarrassingly far off of the average!

Okay, I did throw some shade in that paragraph about subjectivists. My point about expensive equipment simply wasn't worded properly I think. I'll be the first to admit that the Arya has huge diminishing returns for the price compared to a good headphone that is far cheaper. The value for an audiophile is then just appreciating these differences, but I don't think you're getting close to 4-5X the performance. But yeah, I think anyone would agree that price doesn't 1:1 equate to performance, so this was a bit of a strawman. The other points I made weren't really shade I would say - I just haven't been convinced of the truth behind these claims. I do think people who are subjectivists are more likely to make these claims though.

Yeah, if you asked a bunch of people to rate a Sundara vs an Arya vs a Susvara, maybe Sundara would be a 7, Arya would be a 9, Susvara would be a 10. So you could say the 20% performance increase is not worth the 4-5X price. But part of being a hobbyist is appreciating that 1 or 2 point difference a lot, disproportionately to the actual performance rating delta. If someone showed up and offered to pay me $1200 to swap for a Sundara I would say get out of my house - that 20% difference in performance is worth 2-3X the enjoyment factor to me. So, still a good value in that sense. I don't think we're disagreeing here, by the way.

Now my Soloist amp, that makes it like a 9.2 - the value is certainly questionable. Are subjectivists under illusions about that value prop? I would say most are not, but they're believe that last drop of enhancement in the experience is there and are willing to pay for it.

As far as burn-in or other controversial phenomena, my view is I can't believe or disbelieve it until I've either experienced it for myself, or had enough opportunities to experience it and didn't. I haven't personally heard it on headphones (did definitely hear it on op amps which got less sibilant over time), but I also haven't tried enough headphones or ABXed a burned in vs. non burned in one. I generally find the objectivist arguments on this unconvincing - people point to the RTings test a lot but the tl;dr of that to me is "we measured a few things we could think of to measure and didn't find a difference. also we didn't bother listening to music." Maybe there's more convincing counter-evidence out there, but for now my mind is still open to the possibility.

 

[Reputator]

Yeah, if you asked a bunch of people to rate a Sundara vs an Arya vs a Susvara, maybe Sundara would be a 7, Arya would be a 9, Susvara would be a 10. So you could say the 20% performance increase is not worth the 4-5X price. But part of being a hobbyist is appreciating that 1 or 2 point difference a lot, disproportionately to the actual performance rating delta. If someone showed up and offered to pay me $1200 to swap for a Sundara I would say get out of my house - that 20% difference in performance is worth 2-3X the enjoyment factor to me. So, still a good value in that sense. I don't think we're disagreeing here, by the way.

Now my Soloist amp, that makes it like a 9.2 - the value is certainly questionable. Are subjectivists under illusions about that value prop? I would say most are not, but they're believe that last drop of enhancement in the experience is there and are willing to pay for it.

The value debate can be an interesting one. If I were to compare my Edition XX (which I paid $500 for new) to my Arya, there's a lot of areas where you might not hear much difference. In fact, you actually have to be mentally trained to really hear the difference between highend gear, usually. By "trained", I just mean experienced. An inexperienced listener may not be able to hear the difference, or if they do, may not be able to articulate what it is they're hearing. And those same people would probably never understand why we pay $1600 for an Arya versus a Sundara or similar. Hell, even $350 for a Sundara is a crazy amount to spend on a headphone for most people.

And then from the perspective of someone playing with highend headphones, the Arya can be seen as a bargain compared to TOTL headphones. And that's even when your brain is trained to hear the differences. Perspective is a funny thing.

 

[cycloverid]

I agree - would be interesting. My wife always makes fun of my color vision - maybe I'd be embarrassingly far off of the average!



Yeah, if you asked a bunch of people to rate a Sundara vs an Arya vs a Susvara, maybe Sundara would be a 7, Arya would be a 9, Susvara would be a 10. So you could say the 20% performance increase is not worth the 4-5X price. But part of being a hobbyist is appreciating that 1 or 2 point difference a lot, disproportionately to the actual performance rating delta. If someone showed up and offered to pay me $1200 to swap for a Sundara I would say get out of my house - that 20% difference in performance is worth 2-3X the enjoyment factor to me. So, still a good value in that sense. I don't think we're disagreeing here, by the way.

Now my Soloist amp, that makes it like a 9.2 - the value is certainly questionable. Are subjectivists under illusions about that value prop? I would say most are not, but they're believe that last drop of enhancement in the experience is there and are willing to pay for it.

As far as burn-in or other controversial phenomena, my view is I can't believe or disbelieve it until I've either experienced it for myself, or had enough opportunities to experience it and didn't. I haven't personally heard it on headphones (did definitely hear it on op amps which got less sibilant over time), but I also haven't tried enough headphones or ABXed a burned in vs. non burned in one. I generally find the objectivist arguments on this unconvincing - people point to the RTings test a lot but the tl;dr of that to me is "we measured a few things we could think of to measure and didn't find a difference. also we didn't bother listening to music." Maybe there's more convincing counter-evidence out there, but for now my mind is still open to the possibility.

Definitely don't think there's disagreement here. I REALLY appreciate a 20% improvement or so over the Sundara - I roughly agree with this estimate. Though static percentages aren't really the full picture, some tracks do a better job of conveying these differences and others less so. Again, not a disagreement - just a thought I've had.

I'm a pretty frugal spender on things I don't think I'll get enough out of - but I also really appreciate the headphone/high quality sound experience. For me personally, something like a 2% improvement for $500 or something I'd just pass on. But the Sundara -> Arya is totally worth it for me (assuming there isn't something in between that is mostly there already). This makes the subjectivist positions hard for me to even want to try. It's not that I KNOW they're wrong, I just don't want to spend a bunch of money on things that will barely affect my experience or effectively just be doing an EQ retuning. The Arya V2 definitely needs a lot more amp than the V3, but the V3 is easier to drive than my Sundara on paper - I'm not convinced that you get anything worthwhile with a beefier amp here. I'm happy to concede this point if the evidence shows otherwise.

In terms of subjectivist points, I don't even personally trust my own ear with very small differences.

@Reputator This actually leads into my next point and one reason I want to try the Edition XS. How much difference will I notice? The Arya is fantastic, but is the new Edition XS almost as good to my ear? I don't want to just assume the extra money is always adding a worthwhile performance gain. I will say that the Arya build quality looks considerably better though.

 

[Reputator]

@Reputator This actually leads into my next point and one reason I want to try the Edition XS. How much difference will I notice? The Arya is fantastic, but is the new Edition XS almost as good to my ear? I don't want to just assume the extra money is always adding a worthwhile performance gain. I will say that the Arya build quality looks considerably better though.

It has taken a LOT of discipline not to just buy an XS and do a comparison for the fun of it. I have a feeling the XS and Arya Stealth have a lot in common and I suspect the XS is an incredible value. But before someone bites my head off for saying so, that's JUST an assumption.

 

[haasaaroni]

In terms of subjectivist points, I don't even personally trust my own ear with very small differences.

See, this is why I’m a subjectivist at heart. Trusting my ear with very small differences is pretty much my whole job as a classical musician

 

[Reputator]

See, this is why I’m a subjectivist at heart. Trusting my ear with very small differences is pretty much my whole job as a classical musician

Yeah I mean, who's ears are you going to trust? Someone else's? Why should their ears be more important to YOU than your own? You aren't listening with someone else's ears, and what you hear isn't going to be exactly the same as someone else. And what if you tailor a sound to someone else's preference, and find you don't like it as much? Are you just going to assume you're wrong about what you should be liking? It doesn't make any sense.

 

[cycloverid]

Yeah I mean, who's ears are you going to trust? Someone else's? Why should their ears be more important to YOU than your own? You aren't listening with someone else's ears, and what you hear isn't going to be exactly the same as someone else. And what if you tailor a sound to someone else's preference, and find you don't like it as much? Are you just going to assume you're wrong about what you should be liking? It doesn't make any sense.

For me the answer is both. My go to example is the first planar I purchased, the Oppo PM-3. I loved it, love the planar sound. It wasn't until I heard a more harman neutral planar like the Sundara that I realized how much better that sounded to me.

And I can be wrong on subtle things. Years ago I swore I heard a difference when I switched my sound card audio quality to 192khz vs 48khz. This turned out to be a total placebo when I read the research and did the experiment again.

Obviously I have to still personally like what I buy though.

 

[haasaaroni]

Yeah I mean, who's ears are you going to trust? Someone else's? Why should their ears be more important to YOU than your own? You aren't listening with someone else's ears, and what you hear isn't going to be exactly the same as someone else. And what if you tailor a sound to someone else's preference, and find you don't like it as much? Are you just going to assume you're wrong about what you should be liking? It doesn't make any sense.

This is why my guitar teachers over the years have been so valuable. Someone to listen to my playing and say “I’m not hearing you play what you think you’re playing.” So in one sense you’re right, but there’s a balance needed here. Obviously the final judge has to be myself, but none of us are impervious to hearing things that aren’t there, or not hearing things that are there.

I guess for audio, it’s nice to have my listening opened to different aspects of sound by someone who hears things differently than me.

 

[ezduzit2500]

The value debate can be an interesting one. If I were to compare my Edition XX (which I paid $500 for new) to my Arya, there's a lot of areas where you might not hear much difference. In fact, you actually have to be mentally trained to really hear the difference between highend gear, usually. By "trained", I just mean experienced. An inexperienced listener may not be able to hear the difference, or if they do, may not be able to articulate what it is they're hearing. And those same people would probably never understand why we pay $1600 for an Arya versus a Sundara or similar. Hell, even $350 for a Sundara is a crazy amount to spend on a headphone for most people.

And then from the perspective of someone playing with highend headphones, the Arya can be seen as a bargain compared to TOTL headphones. And that's even when your brain is trained to hear the differences. Perspective is a funny thing.

Said quite well. I too see the Arya as a relative bargain compared to other TOTL HPs - though it's still objectively expensive. It would cost quite a bit more cash to better it - in some areas - much more to better it in all areas.

 

[ezduzit2500]

...I just don't want to spend a bunch of money on things that will barely affect my experience...

There is a point of balance between "things that will barely affect the listening experience" vs matching of one's system/chain to maximize the Arya's SQ potential. I try to do the latter while still being practically minded and trying to stay out of the excessive/obsessive zone. Hard to do sometimes, but at some point good enough has to be good enough - especially when budget is a concern (as is my case).