Hiby R3 Pro Portable Bluetooth DAP
Dec 18, 2019 at 11:04 AM Post #196 of 2,068
Mine worked OK when I got it, and updated over WiFi.

Now it seems to be erroring! So, I guess their servers are down. Suggest you try again later :)
 
Dec 18, 2019 at 11:51 AM Post #197 of 2,068
If Q1 meets your needs then that's great, especially at half the price. But saying it's objectively better than the R3Pro is a bit of a stretch.

Agreed, that the exact DAC chip model is not the most important factor, but it is the implementation. Which is why having dual dacs, one for each channel, will in fact make a large difference in sound, especially if you are utilizing the balanced output. The balanced output of the R3Pro is 210mw vs 80mw from the Q1, not to mention it has better THD numbers as well etc.

Again it depends on the implementation, dual DAC's alone aren't a guaranteed major improvement in sound quality. If the same DAC chip is used single vs double the sound will be very close to identical if tuned the same. You might get slightly less noise and minor improvements in other areas but will you hear a significant difference, maybe.
 
Dec 18, 2019 at 9:00 PM Post #198 of 2,068
Again it depends on the implementation, dual DAC's alone aren't a guaranteed major improvement in sound quality. If the same DAC chip is used single vs double the sound will be very close to identical if tuned the same. You might get slightly less noise and minor improvements in other areas but will you hear a significant difference, maybe.
Hey I think you should start a new thread for the Q1 if you are so keen on convincing ppl it should be considered over the R3 Pro and other options. I kinda went through the same thing in the Qudelix 5K thread.
 
Dec 20, 2019 at 5:10 AM Post #200 of 2,068
Hey I think you should start a new thread for the Q1 if you are so keen on convincing ppl it should be considered over the R3 Pro and other options. I kinda went through the same thing in the Qudelix 5K thread.

My post about dual vs single DAC implementations was not specific to the R3 Pro but my experience listening to alot of DAP's (dozens) since I can't demo the R3 Pro yet.

In terms of sound quality the reviews I have read indicate the R3 Pro is optimized for balanced output. This is an excerpt from a review comparing the Q1 to the R3 Pro .Q1 vs Hiby R3 Pro – in this comparison if you look at 3.5mm port of R3 Pro, its sound has narrower soundstage and less expanded dynamics, but when you switch to its 2.5mm balanced output, the soundstage width and vertical dynamics expansion of R3 Pro is on the same level as Q1. Since I don't own any balanced headphones going with an SE only DAP optimized for one output makes more sense. Normally you associate dual DAC implementations with having a bigger sound stage with better channel separation. But in this review the single DAC Q1 is rated wider on SE and equal balanced. I really don't like paying more for features I won't use like balanced output, wifi and streaming which is currently limited to 2 options on the R3 Pro anyway.

I haven't heard either one but the Q1 will be half the price with similar power SE and battery life. I would love to demo both to be sure, the R3 Pro is just now showing up as coming soon in Canada and the Q1 is February or March next year. So I will wait until both are available and then hopefully I can try them both. I like the Hiby R5 as well but unfortunately it is way to expensive in Canada at almost $600. I was really hoping the R3 Pro might be a more affordable option, only a demo will help me decide for sure.
 
Dec 20, 2019 at 12:50 PM Post #201 of 2,068

I find his points system to be useless. To rate all 5 areas of scoring with equal value when calculating the aggregate score is worthless. Back before the internet when reviews were done in magazines they used weighted scoring. For example sound quality or in this case Tonality should account for a greater portion of the score than any of the other areas. To me Functionality and Software should be together since it won't function without software. Then maybe feature set and lastly build quality.

Under his scoring system a DAP with a mediocre Tonality score that scores great in all the other areas would get a great score. Whereas a DAP that sounds amazing and gets a great score for Tonality could score lower if rates lower in the other areas. With a weighted scoring system a great sounding DAP will get a more legitimate score since Sound Quality is the most important score. So maybe Tonality/Sound Quality 50%, Software/Functionality 25%, Features 15%, Build Quality 10%. With so many different headphones and iem's a Matchability score is silly unless he happens to use your headphones or iem's for the score.

There also needs to be some kind of baseline reference for these scores or they become arbitrary. If you are reviewing a DAP in the $300 to $500 range for example pick a DAP that you gave a high score to for Sound Quality in this price range and rate the reviewed unit against it higher or lower in that area.

I give zero credence to reviews that use a scoring system without any baseline references. Reviews are just to subjective based on bias and preference for a scoring system like this to be helpful.
 
Dec 20, 2019 at 4:40 PM Post #202 of 2,068
I find his points system to be useless. To rate all 5 areas of scoring with equal value when calculating the aggregate score is worthless. Back before the internet when reviews were done in magazines they used weighted scoring. For example sound quality or in this case Tonality should account for a greater portion of the score than any of the other areas. To me Functionality and Software should be together since it won't function without software. Then maybe feature set and lastly build quality.

Under his scoring system a DAP with a mediocre Tonality score that scores great in all the other areas would get a great score. Whereas a DAP that sounds amazing and gets a great score for Tonality could score lower if rates lower in the other areas. With a weighted scoring system a great sounding DAP will get a more legitimate score since Sound Quality is the most important score. So maybe Tonality/Sound Quality 50%, Software/Functionality 25%, Features 15%, Build Quality 10%. With so many different headphones and iem's a Matchability score is silly unless he happens to use your headphones or iem's for the score.

There also needs to be some kind of baseline reference for these scores or they become arbitrary. If you are reviewing a DAP in the $300 to $500 range for example pick a DAP that you gave a high score to for Sound Quality in this price range and rate the reviewed unit against it higher or lower in that area.

I give zero credence to reviews that use a scoring system without any baseline references. Reviews are just to subjective based on bias and preference for a scoring system like this to be helpful.

Well aside from the scoring there is actually a lot of good content in the review.

I actually voiced the same concern regarding weighted scoring previously and apparently he does weight the score categories, but that is not displayed in the review.
 
Dec 20, 2019 at 7:59 PM Post #203 of 2,068
I find his points system to be useless. To rate all 5 areas of scoring with equal value when calculating the aggregate score is worthless. Back before the internet when reviews were done in magazines they used weighted scoring. For example sound quality or in this case Tonality should account for a greater portion of the score than any of the other areas. To me Functionality and Software should be together since it won't function without software. Then maybe feature set and lastly build quality.

Under his scoring system a DAP with a mediocre Tonality score that scores great in all the other areas would get a great score. Whereas a DAP that sounds amazing and gets a great score for Tonality could score lower if rates lower in the other areas. With a weighted scoring system a great sounding DAP will get a more legitimate score since Sound Quality is the most important score. So maybe Tonality/Sound Quality 50%, Software/Functionality 25%, Features 15%, Build Quality 10%. With so many different headphones and iem's a Matchability score is silly unless he happens to use your headphones or iem's for the score.

There also needs to be some kind of baseline reference for these scores or they become arbitrary. If you are reviewing a DAP in the $300 to $500 range for example pick a DAP that you gave a high score to for Sound Quality in this price range and rate the reviewed unit against it higher or lower in that area.

I give zero credence to reviews that use a scoring system without any baseline references. Reviews are just to subjective based on bias and preference for a scoring system like this to be helpful.

Well if we got rid of all reviewer bias and did level-matched blind listening tests of all modern DAPs, all DAPs from $50 to $50000 may* sound exactly the same, modulo differences in output impedance and optional DSPs, so I find your desired emphasis on sound quality a bit ironic! We do know for example that while measurement results vary, the magnitude of the differences between the best and the worst out there, when compared against established thresholds of audibility, goes against the common assumption that every DAP must sound any different, let alone wildly different as commonly assumed. Of course, we still strive after the best result on paper, and do exhaustive listening tests to make sure that nothing unexpected goes astray despite picture perfect results on paper (even to the point of hand-picking boutique components to produce perceived sonic changes--fine by me, as long as it doesn't damage measured quality), but to then see our work then go into a bit of a lottery in sound comparisons from reviewers pains me a bit, and allegations that those aren't given enough weight pains me a bit more. Of course, blind tests of the scale and diligence required to establish the facts for players currently on the market won't ever come by, and even if it did, would become out of date the next time a player comes out, so we'll never know for sure.

*Emphasis on MAY

The crux of the matter, if you ask me, is that improvements on DAP quality improves the PRECISION with which the input signal is reproduced at the earphones, but does nothing for ACCURACY, when the inherent distortions of a headphone system are accounted for. IEMs almost always resonate with your ears creating sharp resonance peaks in the treble (although I hear the Seeds II will have something to combat that), and all headphones as a matter of course gives not "soundstage" but only "headstage", a stage of sounds inside your head confined by the way they go on / into your ear. Even recordings themselves may have issues such as boomy bass or overenthusiastic sibilance that were overlooked at the time of pressing. None of this is corrected for when you do the audiophile thing and try your hardest to keep the signal 100% bitperfect digitally and unchanged in the DAC. It's like buying an atomic clock which does not miss a second in a century only to set it to the wrong time zone.

I don't know if DAPs really sound exactly the same as each other, but being used to the drastic improvements from using tools even more advanced than MSEB in tailoring earphone response and music quality to my ears and then correcting the in-head phenomenon with further signal processing, I can't really be made to bother about differences in sound between DAPs in which none of such improvements are available--unlike HiBy DAPs, where we start off with MSEB and we at EFOtech hope to bring the advanced improvement technologies I'm hearing out to the general public in the future as well in collaboration with HiBy.

Besides, I care more when people can't listen to the music they want, at all, or not as easily as they want the way they want it, owing to software issues. When something like that happens, be it incompatibility with a certain streaming provider, or malfunctions / idiosyncracies in an advertised navigation / output feature, I report straight away. I hope to see our DAPs become the most accessible gateway to all the different music sources out there in this new connected world. And sound the best at it, not just by having the best audio "precision" but also the best "accuracy", via what is mentioned above.

Please note, I will not answer any follow-up questions to this post, as this is obviously a very touchy subject, for me being who I am, and for this part of the forum.
 
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Dec 25, 2019 at 9:36 AM Post #204 of 2,068
Well if we got rid of all reviewer bias and did level-matched blind listening tests of all modern DAPs, all DAPs from $50 to $50000 may* sound exactly the same, modulo differences in output impedance and optional DSPs, so I find your desired emphasis on sound quality a bit ironic! We do know for example that while measurement results vary, the magnitude of the differences between the best and the worst out there, when compared against established thresholds of audibility, goes against the common assumption that every DAP must sound any different, let alone wildly different as commonly assumed. Of course, we still strive after the best result on paper, and do exhaustive listening tests to make sure that nothing unexpected goes astray despite picture perfect results on paper (even to the point of hand-picking boutique components to produce perceived sonic changes--fine by me, as long as it doesn't damage measured quality), but to then see our work then go into a bit of a lottery in sound comparisons from reviewers pains me a bit, and allegations that those aren't given enough weight pains me a bit more. Of course, blind tests of the scale and diligence required to establish the facts for players currently on the market won't ever come by, and even if it did, would become out of date the next time a player comes out, so we'll never know for sure.

*Emphasis on MAY

The crux of the matter, if you ask me, is that improvements on DAP quality improves the PRECISION with which the input signal is reproduced at the earphones, but does nothing for ACCURACY, when the inherent distortions of a headphone system are accounted for. IEMs almost always resonate with your ears creating sharp resonance peaks in the treble (although I hear the Seeds II will have something to combat that), and all headphones as a matter of course gives not "soundstage" but only "headstage", a stage of sounds inside your head confined by the way they go on / into your ear. Even recordings themselves may have issues such as boomy bass or overenthusiastic sibilance that were overlooked at the time of pressing. None of this is corrected for when you do the audiophile thing and try your hardest to keep the signal 100% bitperfect digitally and unchanged in the DAC. It's like buying an atomic clock which does not miss a second in a century only to set it to the wrong time zone.

I don't know if DAPs really sound exactly the same as each other, but being used to the drastic improvements from using tools even more advanced than MSEB in tailoring earphone response and music quality to my ears and then correcting the in-head phenomenon with further signal processing, I can't really be made to bother about differences in sound between DAPs in which none of such improvements are available--unlike HiBy DAPs, where we start off with MSEB and we at EFOtech hope to bring the advanced improvement technologies I'm hearing out to the general public in the future as well in collaboration with HiBy.

Besides, I care more when people can't listen to the music they want, at all, or not as easily as they want the way they want it, owing to software issues. When something like that happens, be it incompatibility with a certain streaming provider, or malfunctions / idiosyncracies in an advertised navigation / output feature, I report straight away. I hope to see our DAPs become the most accessible gateway to all the different music sources out there in this new connected world. And sound the best at it, not just by having the best audio "precision" but also the best "accuracy", via what is mentioned above.

Please note, I will not answer any follow-up questions to this post, as this is obviously a very touchy subject, for me being who I am, and for this part of the forum.

Bias is unavoidable but a rating system that makes sense would be preferable to scores that seem random. Stick to giving impressions on what you hear, when you start awarding scores with no basis it skews reviews unfairly. I am entitled to my opinion on the validity of reviews just like you have your own. This is a comment on scored reviews in general and are not specific to your products. I would say this about any products reviewed in this way.
 
Dec 27, 2019 at 2:06 AM Post #208 of 2,068
This little guy just sounds fantastic with my Oriolus MK2. I think it's better than the ZX300 on balanced, particularly re the soundstage. No hiss either, which is great because the Mk 2 is sensitive. This DAP is a winner.
 

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