[dgshtav]

AmanGeorge, sending you a PM.

 

[lamikeith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgshtav /img/forum/go_quote.gif A comparo between K701, HD600, HD650 and D5000: WOW....looking at the FR graphs, I can't believe the price tag on the K701! It seems flatter than the rest through 10K. I can also quantify the "darkness" of the HD650. That +5dB dip from 3K to 7K doesn't look good. Same for the "boominess" of the D5000.

I love the smell of enthusiasm in the morning. Note well what I said above:
"Read how to interpret their charts."
"Learn about linear and non-linear distortion."

I will say no more.
Peace.

 

[Mercuttio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgshtav /img/forum/go_quote.gif Did a FR comparo between K701, HD600, HD650 and D5000 on headphone.com WOW....looking at the FR graphs, I can't believe the price tag on the K701! It seems flatter than the rest through 10K. I can also quantify the "darkness" of the HD650. That +5dB dip from 3K to 7K doesn't look good. Same for the "boominess" of the D5000. The K701, HD650, Grado RS-1 and the ATH-W5000 would be an interesting to see on one graph as well. I understand that the FR graphs don't speak much for the tonal and spatial characteristics, but they do help in identifying a well rounded phone. Thanks again. Can't wait for more comparos and learning about why people don't like the K701 (as some seem to suggest here)

Warning, now entering dangerous territory. The FR of the headphones can be an interesting start to learning about a headphone, but in no way should be used to truly quantify its qualities. I'm pretty sure the K701 looks similar to the infamous Grado HP1 or HP2... but neutrality is only the beginning of a sound signature.

If you use this information as a starting point though and not a judgement about a particular headphone you're on the right path! Learn everything you can, there's an amazing wealth of information here.

 

[limpidglitch]

Personally I valuate personal impressions written by others on this forum higher than any graphs, but that might just be me.
The GS1000. I think I'm essentially agreeing with mercuttio. They give me a perception of a sort of v-shaped frequency curve, but highs have never given me any problems. There's a lot of love/hate going on about these headphones, that paired with pickyness concerning amp choice, makes them quite hard to evaluate without a personal audition. This issue has displayed itself to be a double edged sword; used prices for GS1000 are rather favourable, at least compared to other grados.

I've just read through Artmon's thread about audio-technica ATH-A2000X (again

) and they seem to be well suited for your preferences if you consider $500-$600 to be the upper limit for now.
If you decide to buy the A2000X and still don't like them after a couple of month, let me know

.

 

[dgshtav]

Mercuttio, limpidglitch,

I understand. I am not going to base my decision completely off the graphs. Their beauty is that they allow me to compare any headphone to other without having to own all of them. They also help in eliminating any and all bias that tends to come along with opinions.

That said, the graphs don't tell me the anything at all about the "sound" of the headphone and other practical parameters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by limpidglitch /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you decide to buy the A2000X and still don't like them after a couple of month, let me know .

Why, thinking of gifting me, a newbie, with another?

Thanks guys.

 

[limpidglitch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgshtav /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why, thinking of gifting me, a newbie, with another?

Hehe. Was thinking a bit more the other way around.
I've been drooling at these headphones for quite some time, but $580 is still a bit much for the time being, and they're not exactly abundant on the used market.

 

[Elephas]

The HD600 and HD650 aren't very different. I think the HD600 is a little bit brighter and has less bass emphasis. The HD650 is smoother. I do think the HD600 is closer to neutral and the HD650 is darker, but both are very good and I might actually prefer the HD650 a bit more. After defoaming and replacing them with stockings.

I think the K701 is very neutral-sounding. I consider it along with the HP-2 and Stax 4070 as one of the most neutral headphones. The problem is I also think it lacks some refinement and sounds a bit bland and tasteless at times, so I guess I do prefer some euphony or coloration. It has good tonality and tonal balance except for some lack of warmth and low bass quantity and impact. The bass is there, it is just de-emphasized, kind of like the opposite of the HD650.

I think midrange and soundstage are the K701's strengths. Its wide soundstage can also be a weakness, though, with seemingly large disconcerting gaps between instruments. This is more or less apparent depending the music played. I do like the spaciousness of the soundstage, there's no sense of congestion or being too closed-in, but I think the coherence of the soundstage and imaging precision could be better.

The GS1000 is somewhat like the K701, I think it can be described as the offspring of a K701 and an RS-1 (sorry Mr. Grado!). It also has a large soundstage and good notes separation. I don't find the bass over-emphasized, but treble energy can seem a bit excessive. It is laid-back and I sometimes think it could use an injection of some RS-1 or PS-1 energy, punch and excitement.

Like the K701, I think the GS1000 lacks some refinement and could use a bit more body, warmth and smoothness. Of course, these can be dependent on source and amplification, or even the tubes used, so I'll mention that my GS1000 is recabled with APS v3 and I use it with a Zana Deux and Accuphase DP-500.

I think the W5000 has better details and imaging than the other headphones under consideration. Of the group, it can come closest to my favorite headphones, R10, Qualia and electrostats. It has a very unique sound that can be sublime with some tracks and horrible with others. It does best with intimate jazz, female vocals, and other slower-paced music and not as well with hard rock or fast-paced dance electronica. Its strengths, details, imaging, and soundstage (both size and coherence) can also be weaknesses due to its tendency to sound a bit thin. I think the thinness is a tradeoff for the air and soundstage. Eliminate the thinness, increase bass quality and quantity, and you have something like the L3000, which loses to the W5000 in terms of air and soundstage.

Recording quality and the source is very important. I like the W5000, and I have two units, one recabled with Enigma Oracle and one stock that I use with the Zana Deux and AT-HA5000. But there are times when playing inferior recordings when I think it sounds horrible, thin and harsh, and lacking body. The W5000 is not for everybody.

 

[dgshtav]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamikeith /img/forum/go_quote.gif I love the smell of enthusiasm in the morning. Note well what I said above: "Read how to interpret their charts." "Learn about linear and non-linear distortion." I will say no more. Peace.

Lesson learnt.

I still stand by my earlier observation (though it wasn't as informed as it is now). Unless I am missing something, the K701 looks very interesting, especially in a balanced setup.

But I am also intrigued by how the HD650 behaves in a balanced setup. It becomes flatter (or rather slopes more gradually) and is "louder" (fuller? sweeter?) than the K701. But then there is a serious dip though between the 4K and the 7K range. Experiences/Comments around how that can be addressed?

Revisiting my expectations from the setup, I will keep the audiophile grade expectation but eliminate the Reference expectation (though I will still maintain that the headphone should not be a limiting/additive factor given my current sources).

For the revised goal of an audiophile grade setup, I am narrowing it down to two approaches:

Approach 1:
Go for 2 headphones - one will definitely be K701. What would be a good compliment?

My reading so far and the graphs suggest that the D5000 looks like a good compliment to K701 and will help me stay within the overall $600 range for the headphones (only..will look at the amps later). But I am extremely worried about the bass issues. How bad is it? Any other headphones that would compliment the K701 well?


Approach 2:
Stay with a single headphone and keep looking in the reference range.

I don't know what would fit the bill though! Coz. the Grados (both the RS-1 and the GS1000) are pronounced in certain freq bands; the ATH-W5000 appears like it would be playing only half the spectrum at right SPLs.

Thanks for the guidance so far.

EDIT: Elephas - Thanks for your post (just prior to this one). I was working on this one while you posted and didn't see it until later. Helpful feedback there.

 

[REB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tintin47 /img/forum/go_quote.gif ^he means the akg K501. They are out of production and from what I have heard need a very hefty amp to drive, but now that I think about it, they do seem to fit your desires very nicely. You can find them used on the fs forum for about $150-200 probably.

The k501s are magical, almost as good as the k500s

. A Graham Slee Solo amp will drive them just fine.

 

[olblueyez]

Sorry to rain on the parade but, objective investigation will uncover mountains of information eluding to the fact that the K701 headphone is the biggest "mistake headphone" there is. The K701 has many fit and comfort issues, I will not make a list as some search time will reveal what I am writing about. The K701 is known to be an amp killer as it has a reputation for needing an extremely powerful amplifier, I know it is rated at 200mw, I know that is not a lot of power for a modern headphone amp, the reputation is well deserved none the less, a search will back this one up as well. The K701 suffers from many anomalies in sound reproduction, no bass weight, very un-natural mids, bright, harsh, and very fatiguing highs that make long listening sessions damn near impossible. Many, Many, Many, K701 headphones have been sold off in the for sale section because of these reasons and thus the Mistake moniker. The chap before me makes a good point that the Graham Slee Solo with the upgraded power supply (my recommendation) has a very good reputation for having synergy with the KX01 headphones.

A case for the Sennheiser HD650/600. The HD series headphones do not suffer from the multitude of fit issues associated with the K701 headphone. The HD650 is one of the more comfortable headphones available. The 650 is an extremely natural sounding headphone, correct timbre, correct bass weight, correct bass impact (with an after market cable, I recommend the Equinox by Stefan Audio Art), amazing mids that are perfectly integrated with the lows and highs, mids that make the human voice sound just about as good as it will get! Piano, vocals - female and male are spot on. The highs are perfection (once again with the Equinox cable), they are liquid, smooth, and more life like than any other headphone/speaker that I have ever experienced. The Bloated bass and veiled mids are the sole responsibility of the OEM cable that is provided by Sennheiser, I'm telling you this is a fact and I don't care what people say, the cable makes or breaks this headphone. The 650 is a high impedance headphone that synergies's well with most OTL (output transformer less) tube amplifier's (something a low impedance model will not do). It is compatible with most non-OTL models and even a good amount of solid state models as well. Amplifier choices abound with this headphone. The huge advantage of having synergy with a tube amp is in the "Tube rolling" or tube experimenting. Changing a tube in an amp can change the sonic qualities of that amp 100 percent, thats right, I said 100 percent. All this adds up to the ability to have just about whatever sound signature you want with some tube swapping, the alternative is amplifier and headphone swapping which is a common thing here at Head-Fi but usually turns out to be financial suicide and does not guarantee any particular level of success and that is NOT FUN. Having a collection of tubes that can enable an amplifier to synergize with a large number of headphones is extremely fun. Get a new set of cans and roll a few tubes and the sonic qualities can be tailored to suit your exact needs.

This is what I started to write when I posted the link to Stax. I still recommend a Stax combo Driver/Earspeaker setup for you if you are truly wanting something extremely detailed. You don't have to buy the most expensive set you know. There are thousands of people lined up who will give you opinions promoting all three forks in your road.

Avenue 1, An exercise in futility and a waste of money unless you are into a very un-natural headphone and then spending all your time trying to fix all those problems with amplifier and source and cable changes that may never get you what you want and in all likelihood will never reach the level of success that the second two options will provide.

Avenue 2, A very scalable headphone with a plethora of amplifier choices and more versatility and the best chance you have at achieving what you want and the ability to alter your sound signature down the road if another headphone tickles your fancy.

Avenue 3, Electrostatic, a place where most people who have already taken avenues 1 and or 2 end up and a place where many people stay for the long haul, as a top tier Stax rig really is the ultimate headphone experience for most people, not everyone, but for most.

I started out with the 701 and changed my path and landed on Avenue 2. I am extremely happy with my system as it is now. I don't feel any urge to upgrade and I enjoy the fact that I can swap a few tubes if I have a weak moment and buy a new set of headphones. Another weakness my choice satisfies is the occasional urge to buy equipment because I get to scour the internet for new tubes when ever I feel like I need to spend money. Tube's can hold value as well and can be sold to the next lucky person as the most desirable tubes are no longer in production and were produced in the 40's, 50's, 60's, and 70's with some exceptions of course. You may not want to let a group of fan-boys leed you in any one direction and do lots of objective reading before you make that turn in the road.

Frank

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Bloated bass and veiled mids are the sole responsibility of the OEM cable that is provided by Sennheiser, I'm telling you this is a fact and I don't care what people say, the cable makes or breaks this headphone.

Make sure this is taken with the proper amount of salt: even though he claims it to be fact he conversely claims that it's an opinion (see his sig). It is quite a matter of perception and not something to be taken as seriously as the type of phone you buy or the amp you use (And source as well).

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif An exercise in futility and a waste of money unless you are into a very un-natural headphone and then spending all your time trying to fix all those problems with amplifier and source and cable changes that may never get you what you want and in all likelihood will never reach the level of success that the second two options will provide.

OR, you could just use some simple EQ. Having done this in the past, I can easily say it solves a lot of problems when used correctly.
I would recommend a good solid state amp if you decide to take this road (Little Dot Mk5?). A higher quality tube amp will also work well.

In any case, having owned a 701, used it with a Tube amp (with rolled tubes), a SS amp, I can safely say that if you want the best investment, mine as well go straight to a planar type phone. A used pair of lambdas + SRD7 + quality SS amp should not cost very much at all, and will sound excellent compared to many dynamic offerings.

What is going to provide the signal btw (PC, CD, LP)?

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove /img/forum/go_quote.gif Make sure this is taken with the proper amount of salt: even though he claims it to be fact he conversely claims that it's an opinion (see his sig). It is quite a matter of perception and not something to be taken as seriously as the type of phone you buy or the amp you use (And source as well).

I stand behind my experience on this matter and the note in my signature is for snarky kids. Know what I mean?

 

[Cool_Torpedo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgshtav /img/forum/go_quote.gif Some good pointers there. Questions (to you and other with experience on these headphones): 1.Are the Denon D5000 and HD600/650 considered to be in the same league? 2.How would one comparatively describe the sound between those? 3.Denon claims better diaphragm materials and as a result, tighter/crisper presentation with quick decays. Comments? 4.You mentioned that the HD650’s are darker. Can you please elaborate?

1.- IMO yes, they're different flavors of a type of sound which could be described as neutral, in opposition to colored sound offered by other phones like most Grados, some Ultrasone, etc. The D5000 are IMO more colored than the HD6xx for being more bassy and having a tendency to sibilance which you won't find in the HDs.

2.- The HD6xx sound a bit laid back, as if players where at some distance of you. They also have about the same energy in the 3 main frequency groups, bass, midrange and treble. The D5000 sound more upfront, more direct (like Grado cans do) and don't have the same balance across the frequency spectrum. The have more bass energy (even modded) and also more presence in the low and mid treble, so they can be less forgiving on bad recordings mastered in the bright side of things.
You could say the Senns have a more relaxed presentation, while the D5000 can be more upfront. This largely depends on the music you listen. On classical the Senns are quite spot on, while the D5000 may sound to you less accurate on instruments timbre, but more engaging dynamically. On rock the HD6xx may be a bit boring, while the D5000 may have it all, though not as engaging as the Grados can be.

3.- I don't think there's a direct correlation between technical features claimed by the manufacturers and what you hear when using their gear. It's true the D5000 can sound crisper and faster in the treble, but you well may find them a bit slow and "hanging" in the bass, especially if not modded. Closed enclosures frequently come with this.

4.- For darker I mean that their more prominent bass compared to HD600's makes the overall sound shifted to the low frequencies, so the treble sounds less present, as if lacking detail and "air" around the instruments. This makes for even a more relaxed presentation, however the more bass quantity can sound more engaging and lively depending on the music.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgshtav /img/forum/go_quote.gif It appears that you have an inclination for the HD600 over the HD650s, coz. you even compare the K701 to HD600. So, •How different are the HD600 and the HD650? •What makes an HD650 an upgrade? •And then what makes that upgrade a “fussy” one? •For the right reasons, I might be willing to work on it. So what does it take to make the HD-650 sings.

- Not very much, however this doesn't mean you won't prefer one over the other. Some people like better the more neutral, and possibly less engaging sound of the HD600, while others prefer the more punchy and bassy sound of the HD650. This largely depends on your personal taste, the music you listen and the ancillaries.

- Not sure, for me the HD650 weren't an upgrade over the HD600, just a different flavour, perhaps more "hifish" which means having more sonic attributes appealing to audiophiles, but less interesting music wise.

- I don't think I can answer this. The HD650 sound very much like the HD600 with more bass, a bit more obscure treble, but at the same time offering an illusion of being more resolving.
For me the HD600 are among the most balanced (frequency wise) phones available, and without hesitation, the most balanced ones in their price range. I have audio professional friends who use these phones for their mastering jobs when noise isolation isn't required. This balance translates into a honest presentation of what was recorded, keeping the natural sound of acoustic instruments and a great deal of the details and space cues of that event, specially if it's not heavily produced (I like purist live recordings). This works well with classical and jazz, but for other styles doesn't add any fun or "jump factor" to the sound.
The HD650 have a bit more of fun into them for the more present bass, but this has a price, which is detracting some timbral accuracy and making overall sound a bit warmer.

- I haven't owned the HD650 long enough to really make them sing in the same way I have other phones that do it, or the own HD600 can do for me. I'd say you need an amp capable to swing volts as fast and in the amount as the cans ask for them to keep their response accurate to the recorded signal. You can do this by having a high power amp (definitely more than 300mW at 300 Ohm), or using a balanced amp, which provides twice the power than the same circuit used in single-ended. Some amps have slight colorations that can be used to enhance the things you like in the HD650, or to cover their defects.
I'm more prone to use uncolored gear that leaves any phones I use to do "their thing" and choosing the phones whose sound signature suits best the music or specific recording I want to listen. So far I haven't found my "perfect" phones that can be used with every music and suiting my mood on every occasion, so I keep a collection and try to have fun every time I want to listen to some music.

As I see it you'll have a tough time trying to find your perfect phones for everything, so you best bet would be trying out different options and seeing which ones fit best your taste and the music you listen to more frequently. That's something no one else can do for you.

 

[Xan7hos]

Reading your description and some of the posts, I'll second the K501, it seems to fit your criteria of music listening. FWIW many consider the K500 to have a slight edge over the K501.

I personally wouldn't call this a reference setup myself, considering how the K501 is IMO reasonably price for how much it delivers.

 

[dgshtav]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry to rain on the parade but, objective investigation will uncover mountains of information eluding to the fact that the K701 headphone is the biggest "mistake headphone" there is. ..... A case for the Sennheiser HD650/600. ....

Frank, I sincerely appreciate a different perspective on the K701.

And thanks for the feedback on HD6xx.