[powerwog]

I would look for a pair of HE-500’s that can be found but getting harder to find for under $500. The HE-6se V2 is just a bit over budget and also a very good headphone but comes with a caveat of being pretty hard to drive so much more so than the HE-500.

It's out of production no? I think at the moment I'd probably not go hunting for an out of production product, but thank you for the suggestion. I also thought of the 6se as well but I don't want to upgrade my sources (at the moment)

Try what I wrote down up there see if that helps.





Well wherever people got it I refuse to use the same description because they actually just add to the confusion.

The blanket term "V-shape" doesn't tell you if it's just the upper bass that is elevated and how it rises up (HD650 plateau then a valley, RS1 mountain peak then cliff, etc) and at what point does it nose dive or whether it's still very strong at 20hz (ex Superlux HD660).




I spent on the HD600 and Cantate.2 a decade or so ago and all I spent since were IEMs and because they broke.

Similarly I bought a DAP recently but that was also because of a similar problem as IEM reliability: Android updates messed up USB audio again, I have OLED burn and might get a new phone but new phones don't even have a headphone jack so here I am with a DAP with a microSD card filled with FLAC and BT for Spotify from the phone, then set ot line out mode when I'm at home (with HiBy Remote app or still BT so it doesn't have to be like a Fiio X5 on a DK1 dock to be easy to control; easier, actually, since I can just open HiBy app on my phone if I want to go to a different album).

It's all a matter of 1) having reasonable expectations (I don't expect my headphone system to sound like my old Pacific Pi10+NAD304 or Focal Polyglass+Vifa TC25+JLAudio 10in in my car running off two Digital Designs amps and a Pioneer Premiere processor-HU) and 2) getting to one you can live with depending on how well you research before buying or how many other gear you can try out in stores in your city (or other audiophiles with gear you can borrow). Even before headphones at least the home speakers were easy to find in stores, and the car audio gear you just waltz into a custom audio shop and they'll let you try out whatever they're almost done working on or the other customers might let you sit in their cars.

I've followed your advice and the comfort seems to have helped. For the past couple of days or so I haven't felt any sort of discomfort and while I still feel like I am more cognisant of the feel of the pads compared to Sundaras, the comfort has basically just matched the Sundaras rather than beat them or anything.

I'm still an audio baby like I was saying before, so sadly I am only capable of going off of people's words when they describe a signature (?) as being neutral/bright/v-shaped etc

In my case, honestly I just want music to sound fun, that's my expectation. Recently my curiosity got the best of me and since I heard Anandas had a (much) better soundstage than the Sundaras while basically being at least the same if not (a bit) better at what the Sundaras do, I also recently ordered that from Amazon (open box) in addition to Sundaras as a trial period. Thankfully the Sundaras have a year-long warranty so I can take my time trying out several other stuff while keeping them under warranty. Plan is also to return the Anandas after about a month of testing to see how much I like it over Sundaras. Next...either go back to the Sundaras if I feel like it or try something else, like HD560/K702/K712. Who knows. My patience is so fickle lol.

Just based on my research, I have an inkling I am getting very close to what I want. Sundaras already sound very fun, and if the wider soundstage is something I like and I find it worth the price hike then I may just stretch the budget for Anandas. Really, the only caveat I have is I want it to pair well with my sources that I have now, as I don't really want to do source overhauls.

This. Cans already liked should stay and from here taking a closer look at other components in a setup sounds like a plan. A DAC alone can significantly improve sound without changing its core profile too much.



We agree in 100%.

I have been considering a modi 3 as a dac as an upgrade to my meizu dongle, although I was totally satisfied with my sources when I tried out the Sundaras. But I'm really unsure if it's worth the circa $100 expense; from what I've heard, while there is a difference, it's not really worth the price hike, but I am still probably going to try out of curiosity. Do you have any thoughts?

Clamp gets better. Mine on HD600 was uncomfortable at first and now it's much better. Still gets rough but I mean, we're not really supposed to be using headphones for more than an hour or two.

ALSO! You might be putting them on wrong. I notice clamp gets better for me when I adjust the headband properly and put them on correctly. Each head is different

Veil isn't what Sennheiser sound is.
Try HD 600, I don't find it veiled. If you want more brightness, then beyerdynamic.

It feels better after I took Protege's advice, although the comfort-ability still just seems to be matched to the Sundaras rather than being better. I've also adjusted the headband as well.
I've thought about HD600, and don't get me wrong I am curious, but in all honesty if I don't like the HD650, I really really doubt I'm going to like the HD600, especially since there's no improvement in soundstage. If I had to describe why I don't like the HD650...in a simple metaphor, when I'm listening to music, it sounds like the comparison to me eating (savoury) food without salt.
I'm more curious to try out the HD560s if anything, as well as K702/K712 and Anandas.

This could just be me also and I haven't done an in-depth comparison between the two, but in terms of enjoyment the HD650 to me (even with EQ) doesn't really sound much better if at all compared to the PC37x which I also own.

The best thing about HD 600 is how well they scale with headphone amps. These cans can sound dark and not particularly clear if poorly matched, but with something nice they don't shy away from comparisons with much more expensive headphones. Being a legend and all that...

I understand you lot are talking about HD600's, but since HD650's are also similar, how do you find out what amps are appropriate to pair with HD6x0? The issue I have with HD650 could be because of poor source pairings. I just picked up what I have now on recommendations.

 

[iFi audio]

I have been considering a modi 3 as a dac as an upgrade to my meizu dongle, although I was totally satisfied with my sources when I tried out the Sundaras. But I'm really unsure if it's worth the circa $100 expense; from what I've heard, while there is a difference, it's not really worth the price hike, but I am still probably going to try out of curiosity. Do you have any thoughts?

Trying out a standalone DAC in your setup is the only way to really know whether it works for you or not, as in: whether it impacts sound quality enough for you to justify its price

Considering this, I'd spend $100 to ease my curiosity and possibly get better sound in the process. Worst case scenario, there's a reaturn window if a product doesn't meet your expectations.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I've followed your advice and the comfort seems to have helped. For the past couple of days or so I haven't felt any sort of discomfort and while I still feel like I am more cognisant of the feel of the pads compared to Sundaras, the comfort has basically just matched the Sundaras rather than beat them or anything.

Nice. How's the sound vs the Sundara now? No audible change?

Next thing you can try is removing the fabric covering the driver. Compare that to the Sundara too.

I'm still an audio baby like I was saying before, so sadly I am only capable of going off of people's words when they describe a signature (?) as being neutral/bright/v-shaped etc

I'm just saying it causes more confusion. If anything I'm discouraging you against using them too, kind of like raising a baby with better habits or whatever it is that educ and psych grads study about this (I got the Spock stuff, all I know is "meh let him cry it out...see now he just needs to do his own thing, here have some pencil and paper").

In my case, honestly I just want music to sound fun, that's my expectation. Recently my curiosity got the best of me and since I heard Anandas had a (much) better soundstage than the Sundaras while basically being at least the same if not (a bit) better at what the Sundaras do, I also recently ordered that from Amazon (open box) in addition to Sundaras as a trial period. Thankfully the Sundaras have a year-long warranty so I can take my time trying out several other stuff while keeping them under warranty. Plan is also to return the Anandas after about a month of testing to see how much I like it over Sundaras. Next...either go back to the Sundaras if I feel like it or try something else, like HD560/K702/K712. Who knows. My patience is so fickle lol.

Given the pandemic that seems like a good plan to test them out so long as the back and forth shipping doesn't accumulate enough.

 

[Lalapuni]

It feels better after I took Protege's advice, although the comfort-ability still just seems to be matched to the Sundaras rather than being better. I've also adjusted the headband as well.
I've thought about HD600, and don't get me wrong I am curious, but in all honesty if I don't like the HD650, I really really doubt I'm going to like the HD600, especially since there's no improvement in soundstage. If I had to describe why I don't like the HD650...in a simple metaphor, when I'm listening to music, it sounds like the comparison to me eating (savoury) food without salt.
I'm more curious to try out the HD560s if anything, as well as K702/K712 and Anandas.

This could just be me also and I haven't done an in-depth comparison between the two, but in terms of enjoyment the HD650 to me (even with EQ) doesn't really sound much better if at all compared to the PC37x which I also own.

600 is different. Even 6xx which is supposedly its "newer" version is far from being the same.

HD 560s is 600 but less. Only major advantage of 560s is bigger soundstage but I think it might depend on your amp. To me both soundstages felt almost the same.

And I should probably not talk about comfort since I avoided Sundara because of that (and QC). That smooth material just gets too hot on my ears.

 

[Lalapuni]

The best thing about HD 600 is how well they scale with headphone amps. These cans can sound dark and not particularly clear if poorly matched, but with something nice they don't shy away from comparisons with much more expensive headphones. Being a legend and all that...

I think my amp is definitely on the bright side, though. I'm way too confused about the amps, so I don't think I'll be going deeper with it.

 

[iFi audio]

I think my amp is definitely on the bright side, though.

This tuning combined with adequate power should be a nice match for HD 600.

 

[PopZeus]

If fun is your ultimate goal in this hobby, then I'd definitely look at upgrading your amp as well as your DAC. A proper amp pairing can make a headphone wake up and really make music more fun to listen to. With planars I prefer class A, but there are plenty of options that work nicely with most Hifiman (minus Susvara). With DACs, it's more about taste. Do you want surgical detail or naturalness? Are you trying to pair it with a specific amp's sound?

 

[powerwog]

Nice. How's the sound vs the Sundara now? No audible change?

Next thing you can try is removing the fabric covering the driver. Compare that to the Sundara too.




I'm just saying it causes more confusion. If anything I'm discouraging you against using them too, kind of like raising a baby with better habits or whatever it is that educ and psych grads study about this (I got the Spock stuff, all I know is "meh let him cry it out...see now he just needs to do his own thing, here have some pencil and paper").




Given the pandemic that seems like a good plan to test them out so long as the back and forth shipping doesn't accumulate enough.

My apologies for the late response.

There was no change then with the adjustment of HD650; normal as usual but just less irritating on the ears. I will also keep your suggestion in mind about removing the fabric covering the drivers but I am not doing so at the moment because I got the Anandas and want to give them proper testing before the return window comes.

So far the Ananda to me sounds pretty much the same as Sundara but just with a noticeably bigger soundstage. Not sure how I read some people saying they're virtually the same. Ananda sound wide af. At first I thought I didn't like it but I am getting used to it. But I'm not sure if I prefer it to the Sundara's soundstage; for some songs the massive soundstage makes them less interesting to listen to, but have yet to encounter a song I think that the bigger soundstage makes it better to listen to music on compared to Sundara. Comfort wise as well they're virtually the same but Ananda has a slight edge, but not by much.

I see what you're saying now about the descriptions, I think I will avoid them. In my experience as well, it seems really subjective what is called X and what isn't

So far in regards to my headphone journey, the Ananda really kind of seems like the end of the road in terms of how far I'd go. Experiencing such a wide soundstage like this was one of the things I was very curious to try out. But you still suggested the K702; is that wider than the Ananda in terms of soundstage?

Trying out a standalone DAC in your setup is the only way to really know whether it works for you or not, as in: whether it impacts sound quality enough for you to justify its price

Considering this, I'd spend $100 to ease my curiosity and possibly get better sound in the process. Worst case scenario, there's a reaturn window if a product doesn't meet your expectations.

I just recently got a Modi 3 and have been trying it for a few days. I believe I hear a difference but am uncertain how drastic it is, or if it's worth it. Stuff kind of sounds "sharper" or perhaps cleaner but if I prefer it or not I've no idea. Definitely isn't bringing out more of the Ananda like I was told it would.

600 is different. Even 6xx which is supposedly its "newer" version is far from being the same.

HD 560s is 600 but less. Only major advantage of 560s is bigger soundstage but I think it might depend on your amp. To me both soundstages felt almost the same.

And I should probably not talk about comfort since I avoided Sundara because of that (and QC). That smooth material just gets too hot on my ears.

I'm aware the HD600 has its differences, but from my understanding they only have slight differences if you look at it from an objective point of view. The HD650 needs a lot more than a few tweaks to make it decent to me honestly, and considering I assume the HD600 still has the non-existent soundstage I really am not the most curious to try it.

I do agree that Sundara (and subsequently Ananda) makes my ears slightly hotter but not in a way that I think is bothersome, or by that much honestly.

If fun is your ultimate goal in this hobby, then I'd definitely look at upgrading your amp as well as your DAC. A proper amp pairing can make a headphone wake up and really make music more fun to listen to. With planars I prefer class A, but there are plenty of options that work nicely with most Hifiman (minus Susvara). With DACs, it's more about taste. Do you want surgical detail or naturalness? Are you trying to pair it with a specific amp's sound?

I'm not sure if I'd consider this a hobby tbh. I don't dislike trying out stuff but I'm not keen on doing it either; it's more so to find what I like and then kind of stop when I get an idea of it.
In regards to DAC, I recently got a Modi 3 for testing. I do hear a difference compared to the meizu dongle but I don't perceive it as being better (yet). Stuff does sound a bit "cleaner" but it honestly could be placebo effect as well; haven't done side-by-side comparisons.

In regards to the amp, it's not that I can't afford to or anything but so far I just am kind of not seeing the point of doing so. From my understanding, amps can give different flavours to headphones a little bit but so far with my Heresy I don't see a need to upgrade, particularly in terms of power of an amp as I almost never go above 50% on hi gain.

I suppose I'm going for a more natural presentation? Tbh I'm still am trying to figure out what a lot of terms I hear in audiophile speak mean to me personally as most of it seems to be subjective rather than objective.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

So far in regards to my headphone journey, the Ananda really kind of seems like the end of the road in terms of how far I'd go. Experiencing such a wide soundstage like this was one of the things I was very curious to try out. But you still suggested the K702; is that wider than the Ananda in terms of soundstage?

Haven't tried the Ananda yet but the K701's soundstage width and depth are only second to the HD800, with the K702 seemingly having less depth because it now also has a bass bump that extends deeper so the bass drum seems more forward vs the K701 which pushes what little bass drum notes it produces farther back. Good enough trade off. But again there's how people don't feel that this level of soundstage size can be disorienting if you're not used to speakers (and even if you're used to speakers, pushing the bass drums that far back without the tactile feedback of that bass hitting your chest can sound like there is way less bass than there is).

 

[earmonger]

This is so deep in the rabbit hole. Find something that sounds NATURAL, good, spacious and clear.

Then ignore "technicalities" and graphs and measurements and prices.

Ears are amazing sensors. Brains are amazing processors. They can adapt to what you own.

Smart people have been engineering good sound for a long time. The next crazy-expensive iteration will not neccesarily bring you more joy. Let the pleasure principle guide you -- not numbers, not hype.

 

[lpd2]

This is so deep in the rabbit hole. Find something that sounds NATURAL, good, spacious and clear.

Then ignore "technicalities" and graphs and measurements and prices.

Ears are amazing sensors. Brains are amazing processors. They can adapt to what you own.

Smart people have been engineering good sound for a long time. The next crazy-expensive iteration will not neccesarily bring you more joy. Let the pleasure principle guide you -- not numbers, not hype.

yep^ but getting a good setup for starts can have its hiccups, manufacturers make odd flaws on otherwise good products, you have to see beyond the marketing hype, plus do things like avoid ground loops, make sure your dac is correct voltage (apparently even in a combo) etc. I've gone with high impedance cans with a powerful amp over what was really hyped up and that has been good. At $500 I would go with the Dan Clark RT's. XLR cable option is no surcharge so thats pretty great. Available in open and closed, you get a made in usa proprietary planar magnetic driver, and I haven't seen one bad review for them, other than people saying the closedbacks sounds more open than the openbacks, which is more like an extra positive review for the closed. Not sure if the 1/4-inch option unscrews to a 3.5mm.

 

[powerwog]

Haven't tried the Ananda yet but the K701's soundstage width and depth are only second to the HD800, with the K702 seemingly having less depth because it now also has a bass bump that extends deeper so the bass drum seems more forward vs the K701 which pushes what little bass drum notes it produces farther back. Good enough trade off. But again there's how people don't feel that this level of soundstage size can be disorienting if you're not used to speakers (and even if you're used to speakers, pushing the bass drums that far back without the tactile feedback of that bass hitting your chest can sound like there is way less bass than there is).

I'm personally not used to speakers so the wider soundstage was really an adjustment, but something I got used to quickly.
I will admit though my curiosity is dwindling quite a lot. Unlike on the Sundara where the only thing I was curious about was what a slightly bigger soundstage on it would sound like, now I really don't have anything else to be curious about in regards to sound. Of course there are some headphones to try out that I'm curious to see how good they are like HD560, maybe something beyerdynamic like DT880, but the curiosity is definitely very low priority.

There is another question though if you don't mind answering. When people talk about treble/mids/etc, how do you recognise them? Like when people talk about certain headphones being too high in treble or whatever or the mids sound "washed out", I'm not sure how to interpret that. Just that basically overall if a headphone sounds good or not. I think the only thing so far I can tell is how resolving and detailed a headphone sounds but that's it.

This is so deep in the rabbit hole. Find something that sounds NATURAL, good, spacious and clear.

Then ignore "technicalities" and graphs and measurements and prices.

Ears are amazing sensors. Brains are amazing processors. They can adapt to what you own.

Smart people have been engineering good sound for a long time. The next crazy-expensive iteration will not neccesarily bring you more joy. Let the pleasure principle guide you -- not numbers, not hype.

Honestly, as someone who is mildly interested in PC stuff and subsequently its peripherals, I do just kind of also want to get a little bit of understanding myself about headphones, something I never had before.
While I'm still a baby and whatnot, I think I have the basics down. And what I've also noticed is that it seems like the vast majority of this hobby is extremely subjective in regards to what sounds good and what doesn't. I've been in some popular audiophile circles where it almost seems like they wrap their identity around only liking certain headphone brands and hating on others, it's weird. I just want a good headphone lol. Some people in PC-building circles do the same thing though, like intel vs AMD. Reality is though, no brand is your friend and we--potential customers--are just cash cows.

Something similar I encountered also was what I'd call "source snobbery". Basically if you aren't pairing a headphone with sources someone deems to be the best even though it's absolutely unnecessary for good sound, like I've encountered some people saying R70x should not have anything "less" than a schiit jotunheim, or Ananda "cannot" be driven on a Heresy or else it will sound bad. I got flack actually from people making fun of me because of what I was running the Ananda on (heresy/meizu as dac) saying that's not adequate but they couldn't provide any explanations/sources elaborating why those sources are incompatible with the Ananda's specs or make them sound "bad" (which it didn't). Even went as far as saying it's "bottlenecking" the Ananda and even upgrading to the Modi 3+ out of curiosity, it's still not better than the meizu to my ear on first impression, just different. I'm not pinched for cash on anything to upgrade my sources but I don't want to spend money on something I think makes no sense, and I think especially for the most part all the headphones I've tried so far (Sundara, HD650, Ananda) are beyond fine on the amp I have.

I think I am very close to just finding my end game headphone. The only "problem" with Ananda so far is:
1) I am not sure how much I like the wider soundstage. Do I notice it compared to Sundara? 100%. But idk if it makes music feel better; I've actually noticed (albeit very rarely) that on songs that sound superb on the Sundara, the wider soundstage on the Ananda makes them sound a little bit less enjoyable.
2) Other than the soundstage difference, I really do not perceive anything different about Ananda vs Sundara. Ananda basically sounds like Sundara + really wider soundstage, but that's it.

That's my only dilemma right now I guess, trying to see if Ananda is worth it. I guess the real test will be after I'm done with Ananda and go back to Sundara, will I "miss" the Ananda and if it's bad enough that will determine if I buy it. That's how I determined that I like the Sundara more than HD650; I did not miss one thing in the slightest when testing Sundara and after, and I still don't.

yep^ but getting a good setup for starts can have its hiccups, manufacturers make odd flaws on otherwise good products, you have to see beyond the marketing hype, plus do things like avoid ground loops, make sure your dac is correct voltage (apparently even in a combo) etc. I've gone with high impedance cans with a powerful amp over what was really hyped up and that has been good. At $500 I would go with the Dan Clark RT's. XLR cable option is no surcharge so thats pretty great. Available in open and closed, you get a made in usa proprietary planar magnetic driver, and I haven't seen one bad review for them, other than people saying the closedbacks sounds more open than the openbacks, which is more like an extra positive review for the closed. Not sure if the 1/4-inch option unscrews to a 3.5mm.

See one issue with headphones I have is that because I basically live in a technology desert, I have to try stuff out myself via websites and their return policy (particularly amazon, very gracious). Some headphones, like what you suggested, I do not believe I can try so easily. Similar story with Audeze stuff.

 

[Steven31]

I have not heard the Sennheiser HD650 but I am familiar with the "veil". I heard it in the HD700. To me, HD700 was a very "veiled" headphone, with a very coloured sound, to say the least. It had such an odd tuning/sound signature that ultimately was the reason why I gave mine's away. It just didn't seem right-almost like a defect. That's not to say there wasn't aspects of the HD700's sound I didn't like - with the right amp, HD700 was very impressive indeed. Just not for me. HD600 is anything but veiled, in my opinion. It is still one of the most neutral sounding headphones on the market, I believe. That's not to say that I don't think there are other headphones on the market that are as good at being "neutral" as the HD600, as far as I am concerned, the HD600 was surpassed years ago. It was the best at what it does but lost it's crown quite a while ago now, in my opinion. In my opinion, buying a really expensive amp for the HD600 is a waste of time. In my experience, it did not scale well (the sound did not improve) if at all with the most expensive amp I had. In actual fact I think the Beyerdynamic DT880 was the real king of neutrality, I think it is more neutral than the HD600.

 

[powerwog]

I have not heard the Sennheiser HD650 but I am familiar with the "veil". I heard it in the HD700. To me, HD700 was a very "veiled" headphone, with a very coloured sound, to say the least. It had such an odd tuning/sound signature that ultimately was the reason why I gave mine's away. It just didn't seem right-almost like a defect. That's not to say there wasn't aspects of the HD700's sound I didn't like - with the right amp, HD700 was very impressive indeed. Just not for me. HD600 is anything but veiled, in my opinion. It is still one of the most neutral sounding headphones on the market, I believe. That's not to say that I don't think there are other headphones on the market that are as good at being "neutral" as the HD600, as far as I am concerned, the HD600 was surpassed years ago. It was the best at what it does but lost it's crown quite a while ago now, in my opinion. In my opinion, buying a really expensive amp for the HD600 is a waste of time. In my experience, it did not scale well (the sound did not improve) if at all with the most expensive amp I had. In actual fact I think the Beyerdynamic DT880 was the real king of neutrality, I think it is more neutral than the HD600.

I'm aware people really like the HD600, but I can't bring myself to give it a try honestly. I know there are technical differences between it and the HD650 but not enough for the headphone to ever be to my preference, and the non-existent soundstage being one thing that won't improve.
Like it may sound better than an HD650 but that's a very low standard it's trying to improve upon from my pov.

 

[iFi audio]

I just recently got a Modi 3 and have been trying it for a few days. I believe I hear a difference but am uncertain how drastic it is, or if it's worth it. Stuff kind of sounds "sharper" or perhaps cleaner but if I prefer it or not I've no idea. Definitely isn't bringing out more of the Ananda like I was told it would.

I understand what you mean. Many audio products grow on us in time, so perhaps once you unplug that DAC after several days of extensive use you'll find its input impactful enough to know whether it's for you or not.