Heed CanAmp
Jun 4, 2010 at 1:42 AM Post #2,716 of 2,784
I recently got a pair of K702 phones and am planning on getting the Canamp to compliment them. I have a few questions before I pull the trigger. I use them mainly for gaming and I have an Astro Mixamp for consoles and for PC I have the Asus Xonar STX. With the Mixamp alone it sounds awesome but the bass gets a bit muddied at higher volume. Hooked up to a Bravo amp via 3.5mm to RCA the bass is still very muddy and in addition there's a bit more distortion  and a lack of clarity. Using the Xonar on high gain (12+gain, 64 - 300ohm) the sound is excellent but sounds a bit strained at times. Tried the 18+gain, 300 - 600ohm and the distortion is ridiculous. In both cases - Mixamp/Bravo and Xonar high gain, is there just not enough power getting to them? Is the 18+gain (300 - 600ohm) overpowering them? Will the Canamp alleviate the distortion at higher volumes connected to the mixamp and xonar respectively or will I just be wasting $400+ dollars? Any input would be greatly appreciated.
 
Jun 4, 2010 at 4:46 AM Post #2,717 of 2,784
I don't have enough experience to answer most of those points, but I can tell you this:
 
Just as an example, I played Need for Speed: Most Wanted through again recently. When I played the audio through a pair of Bose bookshelf speakers that supposedly cost hundreds and hundreds new, the music was there behind engine roar and the crashing sounds, but it was really put in the background. But when I used my k702 with the same mix of game sounds, I could hear the music much more clearly. Even through the engine roar and general din, there was enough clarity and precision for me to learn things about mixing. I was analyzing mixing delay in electric guitars used to make them sound bigger and taking notes on how big artists use vocal overdubs for different sounds. You're going to be able to hear this kind of detail in the k702 whether you're playing through the CanAmp or through a stereo receiver's headphone out as I did for nine months.
 
If you have these other amps already, use what sounds best to you. If gaming is what you use them most for, you won't find much improvement with the CanAmp. With high fidelity music, the differences aren't night and day. So I'd recommend not getting it unless you're made of money.
 
Jun 4, 2010 at 1:10 PM Post #2,718 of 2,784
If your problem is not enough gain and the sound either being too quiet or too distorted, the CanAmp may help. If I turn my music player down by 10dB, I still can't bear to turn the CanAmp's volume knob past twelve o'clock.
 
Make sure you don't ask too much from your other amps, by the way. When an amp can't produce what you're calling for, it starts making what's called square waves. They are devastating to drivers and will blow your speakers or headphones. If you need more power, get a bigger amp and keep the volume lower. This is why for live sound reinforcement, the pros always get amps with twice as much power as the speakers require. An underpowered amp is dangerous.
 
My professor, who has engineered in places as far as the Blitz Night Club in Tokyo, compared it to cars. If drive 120 mph in your car all day long when it can only go 120 mph, you're going to fry it. We make cars that can go 120 mph so we can drive 60 mph without problems. You can't run a car flat out all day. If you plan to drive 120 mph, buy a car that can go 200 mph, he says. The same goes for amps.
 
Jun 4, 2010 at 2:15 PM Post #2,719 of 2,784

 
Quote:
If your problem is not enough gain and the sound either being too quiet or too distorted, the CanAmp may help. If I turn my music player down by 10dB, I still can't bear to turn the CanAmp's volume knob past twelve o'clock.
 
Make sure you don't ask too much from your other amps, by the way. When an amp can't produce what you're calling for, it starts making what's called square waves. They are devastating to drivers and will blow your speakers or headphones. If you need more power, get a bigger amp and keep the volume lower. This is why for live sound reinforcement, the pros always get amps with twice as much power as the speakers require. An underpowered amp is dangerous.
 
My professor, who has engineered in places as far as the Blitz Night Club in Tokyo, compared it to cars. If drive 120 mph in your car all day long when it can only go 120 mph, you're going to fry it. We make cars that can go 120 mph so we can drive 60 mph without problems. You can't run a car flat out all day. If you plan to drive 120 mph, buy a car that can go 200 mph, he says. The same goes for amps.


Thanks for the replies. That's exactly the problem i'm having. Not enough volume and when the volume is loud enough, distortion completely ruins the sound. I just purchased the matrix m-stage though as the canamp is a little more than I can afford right now. I just hope I haven't already damaged my phones in any way. Thanks again
 
Jun 4, 2010 at 2:20 PM Post #2,720 of 2,784
I'm fighting with a distortion problem as well, although the CanAmp isn't as fault. The fault seems to lie with my media player, my DAC, or an unfortunate percentage of my music suffering from hyper-compression. =\
 
Jun 27, 2010 at 4:09 PM Post #2,721 of 2,784
ok so i'm looking to get the akg k701 with CanAmp for my computer. From what i've read, i should get a DAC too because onboard sound sucks? If so, which DAC (Or soundcard) would you guys recommand?
 
Jun 28, 2010 at 3:49 PM Post #2,723 of 2,784
my source files are mostly V0 Mp3. I'm flexiable on the price atm, so can you give me a variety of DACs at different price points?
 
I'm pretty new to this, I don't know the difference between USB, Coaxial or Optical. Can you explain? as far as I know, I connect the DAC to the computer, and AMP to the DAC, then headphone to the AMP, right?
 
Jun 29, 2010 at 1:43 AM Post #2,724 of 2,784
Here is an excerpt from the book "Mastering Audio: The Art and the Science" by Bob Katz, one of the world's best.
 
Converters
All the converters mentioned here are A grade or higher. The difference between an A and an A+ is extremely small, perceptable by only the most discriminating listeners, and opinions vary on which is better.
 
Benchmark DAC1
The Benchmark DAC1 is a 2-channel 192 kHz/24-bit digital-to-analog converter, utilizing their UltraLock (TM) jitter reduction system.
 
Cranesong HEDD-192
The processor section of the Cranesong HEDD-192 is described in detail in Chapter 17. Its ADC and DAC have excellent sound, at least A grade.
 
Lavry DA-924
The Lavry Gold converters are premium models built with discrete parts, with an extremely quiet noise floor and pristine sound quality. The DAC uses their Crystallock jitter elimination circuitry, whose PLL does not change the data. This is one candidate for best-sounding converter regardless of price.
 
Weiss DAC1
Weiss's excellent DAC1 with data-accurate PLL is another candidate for "best-sounding".
 
Other Converters
Other highly respected converters that I have used are dCS, Mytek, and Prism.
 
(I left out most of the stuff on analog to digital converters since you don't need that.) :)
 
After a quick Google search, here are the prices on the units he recommended:
 
Benchmark DAC1  =  $995
Cranesong HEDD-192  =  $3,620
Lavry DA-924  =  $8,500
Weiss DAC1  =  $6,725
 
Ouch, right? Although I find it interesting that some of the best converters for audiophiles are also the best for mastering, like the Benchmark and the Lavry.
 
However, I have heard excellent things about the Benchmark. For example, it was mostly holding its own in a comparison with a dac costing $17,000. Also, it is a good sounding headphone amplifier, although you could output to the Heed CanAmp if you wanted to.
 
At the cheaper end of the spectrum ...
 
Centrance has a plug-n-play USB DAC and headphone amp in one. It costs $400. It looks small enough to be a joke, but it actually sounds quite excellent, I've heard. I could find access to one and I own the AKG k702, so if you're interested, I can give it a test listen on some material and tell you what I think.
 
And the last option, something I'm super stoked about, is actually multi-purpose. It is a calibrated monitor control, the BMC-2 by TC Electronics. As soon as I have the cash, I'll be picking one up.
 
It has three digital inputs, which are switchable and each as memory for its own sample rate (also switchable). It outputs digital or analog, depending on which button you have pushed. The level control is calibrated, meaning when you have it set right, you can dial to 0dB, which is preferably 83dB SPL in your ears. Then, when you want to turn it down 3dB to have a reference level of 80dB SPL, you turn the control down one dot, and the little light blinks so you know you reached it. It has a "reference" position, so when you hit that button, it returns to one volume level you preset as your reference. It also has a dim level, like a pre-defined partial-mute, and a full mute. Also, it has options for stereo, mono, and side-only, which is very, very useful if you do any audio mixing. They spent over a year developing their anti-jitter technology, and it works. It isn't empty advertising jargon!
 
I saved the best two features for last: the volume control is 48-bit dithered to 24-bit! and it is only $300!
 
I have heard on the highest authority that the dac inside sounds very, very good, although I have only used it on digital mode at work since they have digital loudspeakers. I've heard the headphone out on decent Sennheiser cans, but you'd probably have better luck using this as a dac and monitor control but leaving the headphone powering to an amp (like the CanAmp). Even if you don't use all the features, it is an excellent price. :)
 
I've been following a discussion of digital vs. analog volume controls on a pro audio mailing list, url: http://bach.pgm.com/mailman/listinfo/proaudio  In the discussion Bob Katz, the above author, discusses with others whether it is best to control volume in the digital domain or the analog domain. Bob says that he has heard great and terrible examples of both, but that the best analog monitor control he's ever heard is the Cranesong Avocet, priced at $2,800 for two channels. And the best digital monitor control he's ever heard is the TC Electronics BMC-2, priced at $300 for two channels. He thinks they are equally good, and the best of their respective realms. Since we're coming from a digital source, it just makes sense to go with the cheaper option!
 
Rinthe, I hope this helps. If it didn't, maybe the others will find it interesting. Sorry if it was off-topic for the thread, but I suppose your question was a little off-topic as well. :-D
 
Just a last thought, Rinthe, Robert Greene was discussing sound quality components in the same pro audio list. His view, which many agree with, is that the speaker (or headphone, in this case) is the ultimate determining factor in the sound. We can talk all day about dacs and amps and sources and volume controls and interconnects, but they are all small differences for the major differences speakers hold. An audiophile or true industry professional can determine which dac or volume control is best on an excellent system, but even a novice can tell you that two speakers sound different, and can probably choose which one (s)he likes more. Getting good headphones will be the biggest jump in sound quality for you right now. Powering them sufficiently is going to be next on your list (the CanAmp), but there's no reason to go hog-wild buying gear after that unless the money is spent more for the joy of the hobby than musical differences for the light-to-moderate audiophile. I hope this also helps. Best wishes.
 
Jun 29, 2010 at 2:03 AM Post #2,725 of 2,784


Quote:
my source files are mostly V0 Mp3. I'm flexiable on the price atm, so can you give me a variety of DACs at different price points?
 
I'm pretty new to this, I don't know the difference between USB, Coaxial or Optical. Can you explain? as far as I know, I connect the DAC to the computer, and AMP to the DAC, then headphone to the AMP, right?


Okay, a few of the basics for your system.
 
There is a dac in any digital device that makes sound, like a cd player, iPod, laptop, etc. It converts the digital ones and zeros to an analog audio signal that speakers can turn into sound. But a dedicated, high-quality dac will sound a whole lot better than the cheap ones inside your cd player, iPod, or laptop. This is because 99.99% of people don't care (the consumers, not the hobbyists), and they are built to cost, not to performance.
 
- - - - -
 
As you are getting into hi-fi, you will want to upgrade your music collection. There are two categories of digital music files: lossy and lossless. A standard uncompressed audio file has the extension .wav, and a lossless is any compressed format that contains every bit of information in the original .wav. An example of a lossless format is .flac. A lossy file contains less information than the original .wav, and if you were ever to convert it back to the original .wav, the file would be different (missing information). An example of a lossy format is .mp3.
 
You will want to re-rip all your cds lossless. iTunes and Windows Media Player can do this, but if you're crazy for quality, you can try higher end (free) programs like Exact Audio Copy and Foobar to rip your music lossless. I recommend FLAC as a format, but there are other lossless options.
 
- - - - -
 
Now on to cables. There are a number of digital audio cable types, most notably USB, coaxial, optical, and AES/EBU.
 
USB is Universal Serial Bus, you already know about it because every computer uses it. This is the easiest if you don't have a fancy soundcard or interface, but sometimes you have to pay more for USB inputs on a dac.
 
Coaxial is a digital cable with RCA connectors an each end. (RCA is like the same VCRs and CD players had as output jacks for many, many years). Coaxial carries a S/PDIF signal, which is short for Sony Philips Digital Interface. It is the standard consumer-level digital signal.
 
Optical, also called TOSLINK, carries light down a fiber optic run, hence the name. It also carries S/PDIF signal. It is sometimes confused with ADAT or "lightpipe" because they use the same connectors, but ADAT carries eight channels instead of two, and it isn't compatible with S/PDIF.
 
And lastly, AES/EBU is the professional standard for digital audio signal. It was developed by the Audio Engineering Society and the European Brodcasting Union, hence the name. They use digitally shielding cables with XLR connectors on each end. You're unlikely to find these on consumer level listening gear, but it's on all the best pro gear.
 
- - - - -
 
You are correct, the signal chain should be Source (computer) > Dac > Amp > Headphones.
 
Jun 29, 2010 at 2:07 AM Post #2,726 of 2,784
I've also heard great things about the BMC-2. Been very tempted to order one.
 
Jun 30, 2010 at 12:22 PM Post #2,727 of 2,784
Skye, Wow thank you for all that great information. It really helped me understand a lot of things. I will take your advise, get the headphones first and listen to it. Then worry about the DAC and AMP.
 
Looks like many people here are suggesting the Heed CanAmp for amp, how much does this cost? i was on their website and didn't see a price. Do i have to call to order or something?
 
as for the DAC, BMC-2 is a little too big, too many buttons/lights i probably won't use and don't understand at all. i don't do any mixing, i just listen :) I don't see why it's so important to control the volume so precisely, can you explain? that said, is there a "simpler" DAC that's as good as the BMC-2?
 
Again, thanks for the help!
 
Jun 30, 2010 at 6:58 PM Post #2,728 of 2,784
If you have the budget for the Benchmark Dac1, keep in mind it is a headphone amp also. That could be a big money saver if you'd be getting a dac that nice anyway. Another thing to keep in mind is that good dacs work for speaker systems, not just headphone systems. I don't know about you, but I want a sweet speaker system when I have the money and a good room. If you get something like the Dac1, you'd be able to use it for two channel music in a great system.
 
As for holding off on a headphone amp, the k701 and k702 are very difficult to power. I plugged them into my dad's iPod and had to crank the volume to get even a moderate listening level. That would have been way too loud for me with something like ear buds. Something better than the headphone output of your computer may be necessary to get them loud enough and clean enough to sound good. And of course, since this is a CanAmp thread and I am a CanAmp owner, I recommend Heed Audio. :)
 
I bought my CanAmp from Dan at Blackbird Audio. He runs a hi-fi shop in southern California. I've been there; he is a nice guy, and he has a lot of good stuff. Google his website and call him or email him. If there is another dealer in your area, he'll let you know, but otherwise he'll be happy to sell to you. Heed recently raised their prices on most products to match with currency changes and inflation - this happened the same time they released the CanAmp with the detachable IEC power cable. I could be mistaken, but I think the going rate is $480. And if you haven't heard other people say it, it isn't the best amp ever, just a very, very good value amp, giving great sound for a price so low.
 
As for other dacs ... I don't have as much experience with those. I can't tell you what I don't know. :) There must be other threads on decent priced dacs, so do a search. Otherwise maybe somebody else here can recommend something suitable.
 
Best wishes on your quest.
 
Jun 30, 2010 at 7:21 PM Post #2,729 of 2,784
ah so DAC1 is a good enough amp to power k701 as well?
 
also i did a bit of research on the dac1. apperntly there are different versions? (usb and pre and just the dac1) which one should i go for? and are there quality differences
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top