[Permagrin]

I think this will explain it better than I can
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFMqWpfZUSw

that's what you said and I gave the sound as a perception perspective... :rolleyes:

that's the most applicable way to look at it on these forums anyway.

 

[buffalowings]

lol, is this some sophmore mentality i see occuring? seriously, maybe you should grow up and "educate" the "misguided OP" with your seemingly endless almighty wisdom
 
Quote:

I'm surprised by the amount of comments this thread has supplied for such a misguided OP.
I'll leave you with tip a wise friend once told me:
"Don't squabble with the freshmen."
 
-Daniel

 

[TrantaLocked]

Quoting Tronz: "So if a $300 HDTV can produce any color then that means it's as detailed and accurate as any other HDTV!"
 
I didn't say better headphones aren't more detailed and accurate. I said any headphones produces the audible sounds that make up the music as long it can produce every thing from 20hz to 20khz
 
Quote:

I'm surprised by the amount of comments this thread has supplied for such a misguided OP.
I'll leave you with tip a wise friend once told me:
"Don't squabble with the freshmen."
 
-Daniel

And why am I misguided? Go buy a $10 pair of skullcandys and tell me there are sounds you can't hear that you can in your guided, wise headphones. They won't SOUND as good in any way; I never implied we should throw away our nice headphones.
 
I also don't get how I am a troll at all. The thread has been going well, but quite a few people call me a troll for their lack of understanding of my position.
 
 
 

 

[flaming_june]

No matter what your opinion is, you should make a better educated decision in composing your title and opening paragraph.  No matter what we decide to agree or disagree, if the first thing we see is inflammatory like your title and subsequent posts, no one's going to take your words seriously.  In addition, your opinion offers no positive input on the community or sound science.  There's no point for this thread what so ever.  Hence you see some troll like replies like, "cool story bro";  Because your post offers no real positive insight.

 

[crinacle]

I agree with OP definitely. Unfortunately, this hobby is about making details more apparent as well as reducing distorting within nuances. 
 
I'll give you an example. A few perhaps. Let's take it in a gamer's point of view: EVERY graphics card can play EVERY game. But why do people continue to buy better ones? That's right; in order to keep up with the ever-advancing graphics. This is one part of audiophillia (ONE PART, mind you): to buy better headphones in order to keep up with higher quality bitrates.
 
Another much more used example: cars. EVERY car does the exact same thing, but why to some people buy better cars? It can be because of comfort, handling, faster acceleration and/or speed. We audiophiles basically want headphones that can reveal details BETTER than regular cheapies. The details WILL be there on the latter, but with be projected CLEARER on the former.
 
One more example, if you still can't grasp my point: food. Why do food connoisseurs want nothing less than the high quality? They're searching for how the food is PREPARED. One can use the highest quality ingredients (A.K.A. highest bitrates), but when paired with an incompetent chef, the end result is horrible. Likewise, a master chef can make even the simplest of ingredients taste like heaven.
 
Just my 2 cents.
 
 

 

[Joelby]

I'm intrigued by this discussion. I definitely get what the OP is getting at. Maybe it's improper wording for the most part to say that you can "hear" new details. It may just be that the higher end headphones are presenting them better so you actually notice them without straining to hear them.
 
That being said, there are some very subtle sounds in recordings that may not actually be produced on cheaper headphones. For instance, if you have a death metal track with ambient synth scapes in the background, they may be lost in the wall of sound created by the guitars, bass and drums. I've personally experienced this on tracks from my favourite bands, that I've listened to dozens of times. I'm excited to go back and A/B these tracks to see if I can actually hear them on cheap phones. I don't think it's unrealistic to think that a single driver that has to produce 10+ instruments at once might miss certain frequencies.
 
I've been playing around with the latest incarnation of apple stock earbuds. Truth is, they do produce the full spectrum of bass, right down to 20hz. Go ahead and test them with a frequency sweep. The problem is the implementation. The earbud is such a flawed design. Go ahead and listen to them, then press them into your ears to seal them. Instant bass monsters. While it may muddy up the sound, it shows signs of potential that the drivers may not be all that bad. I wanted to attempt to turn them into custom IEMs. Unfortunately, this may be impossible as it's extremely hard to remove the drivers without damaging them. I will likely try custom molded tips to see what happens. For the sake of science!
 
Wish I was at home right now so I could test. I just finished Portal 2 so I need a test fix!
 
 

 

[TMRaven]

I dont know about calling the apple buds bass monsters, even with a good seal.  Their frequency response literally takes a massive dive below 200hz.  Even this pair of crappy skullcandy holua buds I got which generate a good seal, and have a huge hump in bass response, don't even come close to bass reproduction than some full sized headphones.  You're asking the impossible to get good visceral properties out of such puny drivers.

 

[HesterDW]

Quote:

People always say how they can hear new things in their brand new headphones. This isn't true; it's either a sound that happened to be toned down by the frequency response of the last headphone (but still audible) or the simple fact when you get a new headphone you try harder to hear all of the details. I have never heard any less or any more sounds in any head phone; every detail is there, whether muddy or piercing or quiet or loud, It's there. New hi-fi users probably think they hear new details because higher end headphones tend to be lighter on bass, making higher frequencies stand out. I don't fall for the treble allusion, and thus I prefer a bassier but not too bassy headphone because it's just simply more enjoyable and less fatiguing.

What is this, I dont even...
 
Edit: I liked the graphics card analogy. For instance if I have a better graphics card than you, sure were playing the same game. Were seeing the same enemies on screen but mine looks much better! And it does it way more efficiently. I think OP is taking the statement too literally though. Im still relatively new to Hifi and when I say I hear new details what I mean is that I hear them more clearly, not that I didnt hear them before. But they stand out. Quit being so literal.

 

[Joelby]

Quote:

I dont know about calling the apple buds bass monsters, even with a good seal.  Their frequency response literally takes a massive dive below 200hz.  Even this pair of crappy skullcandy holua buds I got which generate a good seal, and have a huge hump in bass response, don't even come close to bass reproduction than some full sized headphones.  You're asking the impossible to get good visceral properties out of such puny drivers.

 I'm pretty sure that frequency response is based on wearing them normally, which is loosely craddled in the ear. When you push them in it changes the perceived frequency response. Monsters may be an exaggeration but the effect is indeed night and day difference.

 

[TrantaLocked]

 
Quote:

I'm intrigued by this discussion. I definitely get what the OP is getting at. Maybe it's improper wording for the most part to say that you can "hear" new details. It may just be that the higher end headphones are presenting them better so you actually notice them without straining to hear them.
 
That being said, there are some very subtle sounds in recordings that may not actually be produced on cheaper headphones. For instance, if you have a death metal track with ambient synth scapes in the background, they may be lost in the wall of sound created by the guitars, bass and drums. I've personally experienced this on tracks from my favourite bands, that I've listened to dozens of times. I'm excited to go back and A/B these tracks to see if I can actually hear them on cheap phones. I don't think it's unrealistic to think that a single driver that has to produce 10+ instruments at once might miss certain frequencies.
 
I've been playing around with the latest incarnation of apple stock earbuds. Truth is, they do produce the full spectrum of bass, right down to 20hz. Go ahead and test them with a frequency sweep. The problem is the implementation. The earbud is such a flawed design. Go ahead and listen to them, then press them into your ears to seal them. Instant bass monsters. While it may muddy up the sound, it shows signs of potential that the drivers may not be all that bad. I wanted to attempt to turn them into custom IEMs. Unfortunately, this may be impossible as it's extremely hard to remove the drivers without damaging them. I will likely try custom molded tips to see what happens. For the sake of science!
 
Wish I was at home right now so I could test. I just finished Portal 2 so I need a test fix!
 
 

Do you mean to say there are some actually details not audible on your cheaper phones? If that's really the case then I have been proven wrong.
 

 

[Alghazanth]

Quote:

 

Do you mean to say there are some actually details not audible on your cheaper phones? If that's really the case then I have been proven wrong.
 

I sincerely hope that doesn't come as a surprise to you.
 
 

 

[HesterDW]

     Quote:

I sincerely hope that doesn't come as a surprise to you.
 
 

+1,000,000
 
 

 

[Joelby]

 
Quote:

 

Do you mean to say there are some actually details not audible on your cheaper phones? If that's really the case then I have been proven wrong.
 

I didn't say that the details aren't audible on cheaper phones. I said they may be inaudible and that I want to A/B different sets. My experience was subjective, as I only believed I heard new details on good phones and didn't confirm it by referencing cheap phones.
 
Anyway, I'll post my results when I can. Stuck at work for nightshifts all weekend plus installing new flooring at home so I may not get a chance until monday. I think it would be great discussion if guys could post songs and rigs identifying specific details that seemingly aren't heard on cheap phones. If we could use the ibuds as a cheap phone standard that would be great as I'm sure most of us apple users have some lying around somewhere.
 

 

[BournePerfect]

Does it take 'endless almighty wisdom' to to show that a $10 Skullcandy reveals less detail than almost any audiophile headphone?

 
 
-Daniel
 
Quote:

lol, is this some sophmore mentality i see occuring? seriously, maybe you should grow up and "educate" the "misguided OP" with your seemingly endless almighty wisdom
 

 

 

[TrantaLocked]

 
 


Quote:

Does it take 'endless almighty wisdom' to to show that a $10 Skullcandy reveals less detail than almost any audiophile headphone?

 
 
-Daniel
 


 

I'm not talking about detail, I'm talking about details/sounds. Sure a better headphone is more detailed (as in it makes the sounds you hear before sound better), but it doesn't mean you can literally hear NEW sounds. Say you have a $10 pair of skullcandys, then you buy a nice Grado or some thing. You notice the drums and cymbals sound brilliant and fresh, thinking you are hearing more of the drums. Go back to skullcandys; you can hear all of these sounds (unfortunately to the listener) but they are compressed, muddy, and harder to decipher (fortunately for the listener). They exist, but of course the Grado is more refined. I am not saying Skullcandys SOUND GOOD, I am saying they reproduce what must be reproduced!
 
Does it really take more than a few head-fi users to screw in this easily understandable light bulb that is my position?