Headphones vs Speakers -- an Inconvenient Truth
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  ​What I am saying is that as far as rock, jazz, and other types of popular music are concerned, mid 30's is deep bass.  The low string on an electric bass guitar is 40hz, a standup bass is the same.  When you go to a concert that uses a PA system the subs they use have a 3db down point in the mid 30's.  What kind of low bass rich music are you listening to?   there is more to sub performance than how low it goes.  Other stuff has to be compromised, including sensitivity.
 
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make that is relevant to me, but my point is that my speakers do not go low enough to reproduce the bass in lots of music, especially electronic music, so I need a subwoofer regardless. I listen to all genres.
 
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I'm not sure what point you're trying to make that is relevant to me, but my point is that my speakers do not go low enough to reproduce the bass in lots of music, especially electronic music, so I need a subwoofer regardless. I listen to all genres.

​All I am saying is that you may not need a sub that goes all the way down to 20hz and that inexpensive ones that go that low, do so with aggressive eq in the amplifier that reduces efficiency. Basically to get flat to 20hz, they EQ everything above that down to the natural 20hz output of the driver.  Get a sub, have fun with it.
 
Edit:  JBL makes a sub as part of the same series as the LS305,  the LSr310S.  Retails for $399.  Rated down to 27hz.  I bet it is the perfect complement to the monitors.  JBL does know a little something about pro sound.
 
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You're telling me to buy $5,000+ speakers instead of a $500 subwoofer to solve the bass issues of my $250 speakers?
 
Well my APM 4's with shipping included was $4k and I think you could get something very nice for $2k shipped with enough patience. Yamaha NS1000's are all over the place at that price but I would look past those if you have the time from companies like Onkyo, Sony, JBL, Sansui, Diatone and others. Considering I could suggest $50k vintage japan speakers (yes there are options at this price level) and modern day speakers that dwarf them $$$ wise I don't think suggesting you save your money till you hit $5k is all that outlandish.
 
I would put the most towards the speakers but even at $2k for just the speakers your still probably looking at close to $5k minus sourcing. $2k for speakers, $400 preamp, $800 power amp, $100-200 RAM speaker cables, $300-400 speaker stands, $600 GIK bass traps or $1200 Realtraps if you want something with a better finish.
 
I know I wish someone would have suggested that to me years ago. There is not much out there active wise that is worth a hoot imo. Even the expensive stuff is rather lackluster imo. Most of the vintage japan speakers you can place right against the wall and they do not take up anymore space than active speakers. My APM 4's actually have to be placed close to the wall or they sound worse. 
 
If you have to have active/modern day there are 2 that I highly recommend and they are Adam A7x/Sub8 and KRK Expose. Both are several thousand dollars though and I think the vintage japan route is a much better route to take.
 
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If anyone wants to have an *otherworldly* experience with speakers, play the Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni (When They Cry) anime soundtracks. It's four rare CDs you'd have to import from Japan...but trust me...this is some of the best music I've heard.
 
Info links:
http://vgmdb.net/album/5868
http://vgmdb.net/album/5864
http://vgmdb.net/album/17908
http://vgmdb.net/album/21625
 
  ​All I am saying is that you may not need a sub that goes all the way down to 20hz and that inexpensive ones that go that low, do so with aggressive eq in the amplifier that reduces efficiency. Basically to get flat to 20hz, they EQ everything above that down to the natural 20hz output of the driver.  Get a sub, have fun with it.
 
Edit:  JBL makes a sub as part of the same series as the LS305,  the LSr310S.  Retails for $399.  Rated down to 27hz.  I bet it is the perfect complement to the monitors.  JBL does know a little something about pro sound.
 
I did not ask what I need; I said what I want. If it does not extend to at least 20 Hz, I'm not buying it.
 
I will most likely go for the SVS PB-1000...but since I can live without it, I may postpone it for awhile.
 
  Well my APM 4's with shipping included was $4k and I think you could get something very nice for $2k shipped with enough patience. Yamaha NS1000's are all over the place at that price but I would look past those if you have the time from companies like Onkyo, Sony, JBL, Sansui, Diatone and others. Considering I could suggest $50k vintage japan speakers (yes there are options at this price level) and modern day speakers that dwarf them $$$ wise I don't think suggesting you save your money till you hit $5k is all that outlandish.
 
I would put the most towards the speakers but even at $2k for just the speakers your still probably looking at close to $5k minus sourcing. $2k for speakers, $400 preamp, $800 power amp, $100-200 RAM speaker cables, $300-400 speaker stands, $600 GIK bass traps or $1200 Realtraps if you want something with a better finish.
 
I know I wish someone would have suggested that to me years ago. There is not much out there active wise that is worth a hoot imo. Even the expensive stuff is rather lackluster imo. Most of the vintage japan speakers you can place right against the wall and they do not take up anymore space than active speakers. My APM 4's actually have to be placed close to the wall or they sound worse. 
 
If you have to have active/modern day there are 2 that I highly recommend and they are Adam A7x/Sub8 and KRK Expose. Both are several thousand dollars though and I think the vintage japan route is a much better route to take.
 
Well, I appreciate the thoughts, but I don't plan on spending four figures on speakers until later. (Probably not until I have a proper listening room that can be fully treated. And then, I'll do a lot of research to get the best sound I can for the money.)
 
At any rate, it's not logical to suggest skipping an affordable subwoofer and instead saving up for a speaker system that costs thousands when the context is getting full bass extension with the speakers I already have.
 
As mentioned, I got five figures worth of headphones in the past, and these $250 speakers already blow them away—and that's with just a humble Schiit Fulla 2 ($99) as DAC/preamp, Samson MS200 (~$70) speaker stands, and cheap cables. This very affordable speaker system also destroys headphone systems (including with high-end DAC/amps) that are far more expensive than ones I owned. (I really wasn't expecting it to be so much better.)
 
So I'm not in a rush to upgrade to fancy speakers. One step at a time, as they say.
 
Tomorrow I will compare my iFi micro iDSD to the Fulla 2 once the cables I need arrive.
 
Oh, and I'm aware of high-end speakers. Just look at these:
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/gear/the-worlds-most-expensive-speakers-yours-for-only-15-million-20160112-gm45ao.html
 
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mattlach

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Well my APM 4's with shipping included was $4k and I think you could get something very nice for $2k shipped with enough patience. Yamaha NS1000's are all over the place at that price but I would look past those if you have the time from companies like Onkyo, Sony, JBL, Sansui, Diatone and others. Considering I could suggest $50k vintage japan speakers (yes there are options at this price level) and modern day speakers that dwarf them $$$ wise I don't think suggesting you save your money till you hit $5k is all that outlandish.

I would put the most towards the speakers but even at $2k for just the speakers your still probably looking at close to $5k minus sourcing. $2k for speakers, $400 preamp, $800 power amp, $100-200 RAM speaker cables, $300-400 speaker stands, $600 GIK bass traps or $1200 Realtraps if you want something with a better finish.

I know I wish someone would have suggested that to me years ago. There is not much out there active wise that is worth a hoot imo. Even the expensive stuff is rather lackluster imo. Most of the vintage japan speakers you can place right against the wall and they do not take up anymore space than active speakers. My APM 4's actually have to be placed close to the wall or they sound worse. 

If you have to have active/modern day there are 2 that I highly recommend and they are Adam A7x/Sub8 and KRK Expose. Both are several thousand dollars though and I think the vintage japan route is a much better route to take.

Lol, wow are you out of touch.

Spending more than a few hundred on any sound system is getting pretty close the realm of the 1%.

Certainly nice if you can do it, but it wouldn't be my starting point in recommendations to anyone.
 
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Robert Wortman

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Lol, wow are you out of touch.

Spending more than a few hundred on any sound system is getting pretty close the realm of the 1%.

Certainly nice if you can do it, but it wouldn't be my starting point in recommendations to anyone.

​Well, the law of diminishing returns kicks in at some point, but I don't think you can get anywhere near the 99'th percentile for a few hundred dollars unless you spend it on tools to break into someone's house and steal their stereo.  That said, I seriously don't think the sweet spot is in thirty year old Japanese designs either.
 
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  If anyone wants to have an *otherworldly* experience with speakers, play the Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni (When They Cry) anime soundtracks. It's four rare CDs you'd have to import from Japan...but trust me...this is some of the best music I've heard.
 
Info links:
http://vgmdb.net/album/5868
http://vgmdb.net/album/5864
http://vgmdb.net/album/17908
http://vgmdb.net/album/21625
 
 
I did not ask what I need; I said what I want. If it does not extend to at least 20 Hz, I'm not buying it.
 
I will most likely go for the SVS PB-1000...but since I can live without it, I may postpone it for awhile.
 
 
 Well, a good bit of this hobby is about buying stuff we don't need.   Have fun.
 
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Lol, wow are you out of touch.

Spending more than a few hundred on any sound system is getting pretty close the realm of the 1%.

Certainly nice if you can do it, but it wouldn't be my starting point in recommendations to anyone.
 
If I told you that the original retail value (not necessarily the current value) of the audio equipment I got in the first four months of 2017 exceeded $17,000, you may think something along those lines...but I played it smart by doing it a little at a time instead of all at once. (By trading, selling, and returning things.) I feel a little burnt-out, so it's refreshing that I can keep costs down for now with the speakers. On the topic of saving up, I do think it would be better to reinvest more for the future instead of blowing everything on a nicer system sooner.
 
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Lol, wow are you out of touch.

Spending more than a few hundred on any sound system is getting pretty close the realm of the 1%.

Certainly nice if you can do it, but it wouldn't be my starting point in recommendations to anyone.
 
I have the opposite opinion but to each his own. I think it depends very much on the times and what is the main media of that time. Had I suggest spending 4 figures on a laptop, TV or video games I doubt you would have anything to say with me being out of touch. From what I can see amongst my fellow 30 something friends spending 4 figures is very much the norm on at least one of those items. Music is yesterday's news now but people were spending hundreds, with inflation factored in 4 figures, all day long back in the 1970's and 80's.
 
Did you see the 1.5 million dollar speakers? The $2k I suggested is 1% of that.
 
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​Well, the law of diminishing returns kicks in at some point, but I don't think you can get anywhere near the 99'th percentile for a few hundred dollars unless you spend it on tools to break into someone's house and steal their stereo.  That said, I seriously don't think the sweet spot is in thirty year old Japanese designs either.

I was referring to the 1% in Occupy Wallstreet terms, not in sound quality terms. Has that vernacular really faded already? :p
 
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I was referring to the 1% in Occupy Wallstreet terms, not in sound quality terms. Has that vernacular really faded already? :p

​OK.  I understand.  I live in an area where there are some pretty wealthy people.  There is one of those FreeCycle mailing lists.  I used to try and snag stereo equipment to fix up and give away.  I have been in a couple of pretty pricey houses with 100K+ worth of cars in the garage that were giving away a $200 stereo and replacing it with a Bose wave system.  I have also known people personally that lived in a cheap apartment and drove old beater cars so they could buy pricey sound gear.  I drive to work every day in a sea of 30 to 50K SUV's.    It all depends on your beliefs about sound and priorities.
 
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Tell that to Sony R10/ Stax Original Omega owners.

​I am not saying that there aren't good sounding older designs.  I am saying the progress has been made and those old designs are not the state of the speaker makers art.
 
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What progress?
In terms of speaker designs, for example B&W has been constantly updating their 800 Diamond series. Looking at the lineup you can see they were boxy and now they are roundy and curvaceous-y. Amp and DAC design has been getting better and better with lowest distortion measurement compared to any previous TOTL designs. Headphones are no longer drivers in cups but with engineered materials to dampen resonances and tuning. Anyone can go on and on about the 'progress' companies and manufacturers had made, but I have a feeling that's not what you are after.
 
What are you really asking with this question?
 
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