Headphones vs Speakers -- an Inconvenient Truth
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mattlach

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I just think your statement should have clarified that you were only referring to speakers under a certain price range, not all speakers.

What do you think of this one? Its specs go down to 20 Hz and it's cheap!

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=605999

Unfortunately I can't comment. I've never seen it before. Haven't seen it discussed anywhere.

I'm a little bit of a skeptic. A 10" driver in that small of a cabinet going down to 20hz seems - while not impossible - somewhat unlikely, especially if it is not a DSP sub.

Anything is possible I guess.
 
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Unfortunately I can't comment. I've never seen it before. Haven't seen it discussed anywhere.

I'm a little bit of a skeptic. A 10" driver in that small of a cabinet going down to 20hz seems - while not impossible - somewhat unlikely, especially if it is not a DSP sub.

Anything is possible I guess.
 
Figures. Just read this from a review:
 
I have equipment to measure the frequency response. The low end reach is 35Hz at -3dB and 30Hz at -6dB. It is inaudible at 20Hz, so the spec if clearly wrong (even at unspecified attenuation).
 
Maybe I should just suck it up and get one of the nicer subs recommended...
 
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mattlach

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Figures. Just read this from a review:


Maybe I should just suck it up and get one of the nicer subs recommended...

Whatever you decide on, let us know. Would love to hear your impressions!
 
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Robert Wortman

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...I'm bummed out that I'd have to spend probably twice as much than I did on my speakers (same as yours) to get a subwoofer that can extend to 20 Hz. I looked at cheaper subs and some of them don't even go as deep as the speakers I already have.

​Most music doesn't extend to 20hz either.  However, when I have a bass player or a kick drum I need to get a bit lower than the 305's go just to check.  Or I just render a quick stereo wav file and play it on my downstairs system.
 
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mattlach

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​Most music doesn't extend to 20hz either.  However, when I have a bass player or a kick drum I need to get a bit lower than the 305's go just to check.  Or I just render a quick stereo wav file and play it on my downstairs system.

I actually find the stuff that does extend down really low to be annoying to listen to, unless I'm having a dance party or something.

I find it tough to focus on other stuff when those deep bass notes resonate under my desk.
 
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Whatever you decide on, let us know. Would love to hear your impressions!
 
Looking at this one at the moment:
 
https://www.svsound.com/products/pb-1000
https://www.amazon.com/SVS-10-inch-300-Watt-Subwoofer/dp/B00AF88BRG
 
It says it can extend to 18 Hz and it's apparently "the most forceful, detailed bass you can get for under $500." Going from reviews, it seems that people like it much more than the SB-1000. (Which some say is the successor to your SB12-NSD.)
 
  ​Most music doesn't extend to 20hz either.  However, when I have a bass player or a kick drum I need to get a bit lower than the 305's go just to check.  Or I just render a quick stereo wav file and play it on my downstairs system.
 
All I know is that my speakers are listed as extending to 43 Hz, and the bass often disappears with music that has deep bass. (Whereas it's easily audible on headphones.) That's the main reason I want a subwoofer. But I also heard that you can have it handle all the frequencies below a configured amount, which supposedly makes your speakers sound better.
 
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mattlach

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Looking at this one at the moment:

https://www.svsound.com/products/pb-1000
https://www.amazon.com/SVS-10-inch-300-Watt-Subwoofer/dp/B00AF88BRG

It says it can extend to 18 Hz and it's apparently "the most forceful, detailed bass you can get for under $500." Going from reviews, it seems that people like it much more than the SB-1000. (Which some say is the successor to your SB12-NSD.)

Yep, it's a trade-off. Their PB models are ported. SB models are sealed. Ported models will produce a lot more bass at the same wattage compared to sealed models, but ported subs need bigger cabinets for the acoustics to work out right, so they will be larger.

Some also say that they prefer the sound out of sealed subs, calling the bass "tighter" and "more musical", but it appears to be a matter of preference more than anything else.
 
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Robert Wortman

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Looking at this one at the moment:
 
https://www.svsound.com/products/pb-1000
https://www.amazon.com/SVS-10-inch-300-Watt-Subwoofer/dp/B00AF88BRG
 
It says it can extend to 18 Hz and it's apparently "the most forceful, detailed bass you can get for under $500." Going from reviews, it seems that people like it much more than the SB-1000. (Which some say is the successor to your SB12-NSD.)
 
 
All I know is that my speakers are listed as extending to 43 Hz, and the bass often disappears with music that has deep bass. (Whereas it's easily audible on headphones.) That's the main reason I want a subwoofer. But I also heard that you can have it handle all the frequencies below a configured amount, which supposedly makes your speakers sound better.

​My main speakers in my den are spec'ed for a minus 3db point of 34hz and minus 10db point of 29 hz.  They do not sound bass shy with music.  I am not disputing that you need to go lower than 43, just that you many not need a sub that gets down to 20 unless you are feeding it the LFE channel from a surround system or listening to pipe organ music.  Expensive professional monitor subs rarely go that low and live sound subs commonly go down to the mid 30's.  The big HT subs do but as I said, mostly for the dinosaur footsteps in the LFE channel.  If you go to amplified live music and the bass seems correct, 30 to 35hz is all you need.   Maybe I have tin ears but I don't agree that you have to spend a ton of money on a sub either.  It depends on what your main speakers are.  If your main speakers already go pretty low the sub isn't doing much.  I cross my T2's over to the sub at 40hz when playing my AVR.  I have occasional forgotten to switch from the Saga back to the AVR and heard music playing with the mains not playing.  The sub was audibly doing something but not that much.  Seems silly to me to spend thousands for a tiny bit of bottom fill that wouldn't really be missed that much if you didn't have it at all.
 
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mattlach

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​My main speakers in my den are spec'ed for a minus 3db point of 34hz and minus 10db point of 29 hz.  They do not sound bass shy with music.  I am not disputing that you need to go lower than 43, just that you many not need a sub that gets down to 20 unless you are feeding it the LFE channel from a surround system or listening to pipe organ music.  Expensive professional monitor subs rarely go that low and live sound subs commonly go down to the mid 30's.  The big HT subs do but as I said, mostly for the dinosaur footsteps in the LFE channel.  If you go to amplified live music and the bass seems correct, 30 to 35hz is all you need.

I agree with this statement.

In fact, my RBH 41-SE's while rated 60hz - 20khz have a very healthy bass. I suspect the lower spec of 60hz is very conservative.


When I first hooked them up, I forgot to connect the sub and at first I didn't even notice it wasn't hooked up.

In test tones 35hz was loud and clear on them. Amazing for such small speakers.

Might help that my amp has more than ample power to really drive the low frequencies.
 
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  ​My main speakers in my den are spec'ed for a minus 3db point of 34hz and minus 10db point of 29 hz.  They do not sound bass shy with music.  I am not disputing that you need to go lower than 43, just that you many not need a sub that gets down to 20 unless you are feeding it the LFE channel from a surround system or listening to pipe organ music.  Expensive professional monitor subs rarely go that low and live sound subs commonly go down to the mid 30's.  The big HT subs do but as I said, mostly for the dinosaur footsteps in the LFE channel.  If you go to amplified live music and the bass seems correct, 30 to 35hz is all you need.   Maybe I have tin ears but I don't agree that you have to spend a ton of money on a sub either.  It depends on what your main speakers are.  If your main speakers already go pretty low the sub isn't doing much.  I cross my T2's over to the sub at 40hz when playing my AVR.  I have occasional forgotten to switch from the Saga back to the AVR and heard music playing with the mains not playing.  The sub was audibly doing something but not that much.  Seems silly to me to spend thousands for a tiny bit of bottom fill that wouldn't really be missed that much if you didn't have it at all.
I agree with this statement.

In fact, my RBH 41-SE's while rated 60hz - 20khz have a very healthy bass. I suspect the lower spec of 60hz is very conservative.

When I first hooked them up, I forgot to connect the sub and at first I didn't even notice it wasn't hooked up.

In test tones 35hz was loud and clear on them. Amazing for such small speakers.

Might help that my amp has more than ample power to really drive the low frequencies.
 
Perhaps you guys aren't listening to music that has deep bass. It's a major issue with some music. Like I already said, quite often the deep bass disappears on these speakers. As in it's not there at all, whereas it's there on headphones...so I need a subwoofer to get that with the speakers. If I'm gonna spend hundreds, I might as well spend $500 and get it taken care of "all the way", so when I upgrade my speakers, I won't feel the urge to upgrade the subwoofer.
 
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...I'm bummed out that I'd have to spend probably twice as much than I did on my speakers (same as yours) to get a subwoofer that can extend to 20 Hz. I looked at cheaper subs and some of them don't even go as deep as the speakers I already have.
 
I would save up your schillings and get a pair of vintage japan speakers and small power amp. No problems at all in the bass dept. with my APM 4's and fire bottle SE.
 
The biggest hurdle is finding a domestic deal on the speakers imo. Shipping kills most international deals.
 
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  I would save up your schillings and get a pair of vintage japan speakers and small power amp. No problems at all in the bass dept. with my APM 4's and fire bottle SE.
 
The biggest hurdle is finding a domestic deal on the speakers imo. Shipping kills most international deals.
 
You're telling me to buy $5,000+ speakers instead of a $500 subwoofer to solve the bass issues of my $250 speakers?

 
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Get something like ADAM Subwoofers or preferably SVS 15-18" subs then let your room shake like there's a 7.1 magnitude quake
 
Can you list specific models that extend to 20 Hz and are as affordable as possible?
 
Would that be inaudible to houses next door? I don't want to get noise complaints.
 
I will most likely just wait until I upgrade my speakers before getting a subwoofer, because I don't want to spend more on it than the speakers. (Only paid $250 for these.)
the lower the frequency the harder it is to stop it with walls and windows.
a sub is made to annoy your neighbors. they will hate you for it, that's 100% sure.
 
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mattlach

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the lower the frequency the harder it is to stop it with walls and windows.
a sub is made to annoy your neighbors. they will hate you for it, that's 100% sure.

IMHO it really depends on the type of neighbors. If you are in a single family home, it's pretty difficult to reach neighbor annoying levels without blowing out your eardrums, unless - that is - you live in an open air hut.

If you live in an apartment building with neighbors in the same building - on the other hand - it is pretty difficult to use any sub without annoying the neighbors, especially if those neighbors are below you.
 
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Perhaps you guys aren't listening to music that has deep bass. It's a major issue with some music. Like I already said, quite often the deep bass disappears on these speakers. As in it's not there at all, whereas it's there on headphones...so I need a subwoofer to get that with the speakers. If I'm gonna spend hundreds, I might as well spend $500 and get it taken care of "all the way", so when I upgrade my speakers, I won't feel the urge to upgrade the subwoofer.

​What I am saying is that as far as rock, jazz, and other types of popular music are concerned, mid 30's is deep bass.  The low string on an electric bass guitar is 40hz, a standup bass is the same.  When you go to a concert that uses a PA system the subs they use have a 3db down point in the mid 30's.  What kind of low bass rich music are you listening to?   there is more to sub performance than how low it goes.  Other stuff has to be compromised, including sensitivity.
 
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