[ursdiego]

Hi there guys!

This is kind of the follow-up thread from that one:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/571385/we-all-like-such-threads-help-200-choice-4-head-fi-newbie-hi-fi-oldie-wanting-involving-music

So I got myself a pair of Grados RS-1 - i pushed my initial budget quite a bit, I must admit, but I didn't want to compromise. Thanks to all folks who have helped me to choose the "right" one for my taste!

The Grados were not factory-new, but very lightly used, so I left them connected for a couple of days to make sure they are run in. Here comes my impression after a couple of auditions:

I don't like the feeling of the sound happening "inside of my head" - and I guess, this is inherent to most headphones, probably to a more or less extent of course, just due to the simple fact that the loudspeaker is so closed to the ear.

Compared to my speakers set-up (modded squeezebox 24bit/96khz s/pdif into audio-gd Ref 8 DAC -> DNM Amps -> Rehdeko speakers), the sound over the cans gets compressed into a little box.

Everything is there, resolution, bass, mids and treble... BUT: A symphonic orchestra sounds like squeezed onto the stage of a chamber orchestra in a little room... And Louis Armstrong or Tom Waits sing inside of my head, instead of right in front of me. And honestly, although they have indeed nice voices, but who actually wants to get the impression to own Tom Waits' voice ???

Or is it, that my headphones-set-up is maybe a bit lower end, in particular the amps? Its Audio-gd Ref 8 DAC (same sources as for speakers) -> audio-gd fun (as headphone amp over analogue input) -> Grados RS-1. I think this set-up should be able to perform pretty nicely... right?

Just to be a bit more precise: I am not scared at all about intimacy - quite the contrary. I actually love to get the impression to sit right at the piano like the player, or to be at the orchestra conductor's place... but I don't want the impression to be myself the piano (image over headphones) someone is playing, but rather to be the piano player (image over good speakers).

This is of course based on a couple of first impressions, I will go on trying and maybe my ears will eventually get used to the headphone-experience and start to interpret right, what comes out of the cans.

However, I think its still a basic question:

Who else has experienced a similar thing when switching from (nice) speakers to (nice) cans?

Cheers!

 

 

[Blue Boat]

Hi, Diego.
 
I have to agree with you on the imaging part. It sure is nice to listen to sounds coming from around you, instead of from left/right. Have you listened to binaural recordings? Here's one I like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecOrBqQAuXg&feature=player_embedded 
 
I doubt the feeling you get with headphones has anything to do with your set-up being "low-end" (it really isn't). You just need to get slowly get used to it.
 
I prefer listening to my brother's cheap 2.1 speaker set-up to my SR60 sometimes because with speakers you get to feel the music whereas with headphones you're just listening. Strange as this may sound, I think speakers are more intimate than headphones with an inyourface presentation like the Grados for example.  
 
 

 

[ursdiego]

Hi Blue Boat! Nice to know that I am not the only one... Cheers!

 

[kn19h7]

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=90761
 
crossfeed may help a bit, maybe not for everyone though..

 

[NinjaSquirt]

It's just part of the headphone experience.
 
For me, speakers are for immersion, real bass, and a true sound stage, but at the price an extremely detailed sound (until you have $20,000 speakers). With my speakers (which are honestly quite low end), I feel like I have the artist performing in my room whereas with headphones, I get to hear every single thing the track has to offer (good or bad) which is why I personally prefer neutral and revealing headphones.
 
Most music is made to be played through speakers (i.e. left and right) and when shove two speakers right next to your ears, there's weird effect of someone being in your head. I have heard of headphones that give a natural and immersive sound but I doubt even at extremely high prices, headphones can replicate the true immersion that speakers offer.
 
Check out the following thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/577606/sound-of-hd800-hd600-hd650-and-the-coolest-thread-ever
 
Headphones and speakers are different domains that unless price is of no object, will probably never crossover each other. What you hear is something to get used and if you don't, then maybe you're just not a headphone person, which is cool as well.

 

[liamstrain]

It might be interesting for you to try a pair of cans that is noted for a huge soundstage - something like the AKG 701, or Audio Technica ATH-AD900... 
 
Just to see if that changes your impression any. 
 
 
With that said - they are different listening experiences, and some people really just prefer one of the other. 
 
And of course, if you decide you just want to scrap the RS-1, I'll be happy to take them off your hands... no charge.

 

[RexAeterna]

i would look into free-field hearing or diffused-field headphones if you want out of head sound. i use my 240DF's a lot for not only for it's precise accuracy but for it's accurate speaker-like soundstage. i compare them to speakers in a well controlled acoustic environment all the time and they hold up very well in that regard. for headphones currently in market try to get pair of earspeakers from stax since they're free-field equalized and only dynamic headphone i know of that uses diffused-field is the beyer dt48S and hd800's. the hd800's though will give you much more open soundstage that you want though. try to sell your RS1i for one or put it up for trade or try to acquire used pair of K1000's as well but used market they usually still sell close to hd800's price tag. try auditioning them if you can and see what you like since everyone hears different.

 

[jackwess]

Speakers vs headphones? two different worlds.Some people don't like to deal with room acoustic and such things and decide to buy a pair of good cans. 
 
With headphones you are less dependant on the environment, unless you use open headphones. 

 

[ursdiego]

Hmmmm... maybe I am a bit of an idealist. But we speak of "High Fidelity". I expected that this should apply for headphones as well as for speakers. And it means: Close to what we would hear when listening to live music. So I am a bit surprised that these "worlds" are so different... However, of course it is just logical... Thanks for the ideas about changing the headphones. I will first of all try a pair of older Jecklin Electrostats, that are lying around in my fathers basement. They are built in a manner that separates the ear much more from the membrane, and as far as I remember, they sounded very "airy". So if I find that they are considerably different from my RS-1 in terms of "inside my head sound", I will perhaps look out for different cans... Or maybe I will just try to get the electrostats from my daddy...

 

[NamelessPFG]

You just have a set of electrostatic Jecklin Floats lying around? Didn't see that coming...I hope the foam's still in good condition.
 
While I haven't had the chance to audition a good speaker setup, my desired quality out of a sound system is...different. I'm skeptical that a mere 7.1 loudspeaker system can provide more precise, directional imaging than a pair of competent stereo headphones with a binaural surround filter while gaming, especially if it's one of the older games that properly describes sound in 3D coordinates instead of pre-mixing up to 7.1 (2D, no height cues) or stereo (1D, left-to-right only). To come close, I would think that a properly-treated room with at least 8 speakers at normal height, then 8 more above and 8 more below, would be required, so as to get true 3D sound with height cues.
 
Needless to say, that's prohibitely expensive, to say nothing of the fact that most sources max out at 7.1 and wouldn't make use of a 24-speaker setup like that. I'm sure it would give more of an impression of distance (not directionality) than headphones do, though.
 
Perhaps it's possible with a perfectly customized HRTF, especially given what I've heard about the Smyth Realiser. The problem is tailoring the HRTF to the listener without already having a very nice speaker setup or having to go over to one and set up the Realiser for a recording...
 
I should also point out that I'm currently using a vintage Stax Lambda setup as my home headphones of choice. They have this sort of ambient, atmospheric presentation that makes it seem more as if the music is just floating into my head than being thrown in like dynamic drivers. Sounds to the extreme left or right have less of an impression of being in my head, but sounds in the middle are...well, still in my head. Note that this is just with plain, unaltered stereo sources with no binaural processing. I'd think the Jecklin Floats might even fare a bit better there due to their design, but I am concerned about whether or not the very same design would break the effects that binaural recordings have.

 

[NinjaSquirt]

I seriously don't mean to jack the thread but I have a stupidly basic question for the OP:
 
Do audiophiles only listen to 2 speaker setups? At least assuming you're listening music recorded in stereo.

 

[jacobthellamer]

I personally much prefer the feel of good quality speakers.
 
You just cant get the same feeling from headphones, I was listening to a track last night on my speakers that made my jaw drop. The feeling in your chest from well produced bass(even at low volumes) is not reproducable with headphones. Your ears are not the only part of your body that can pick up sound. I am running bi-amped floor standing speakers with an active crossover.
 
Headphones can offer very detailed reproduction of music and are a good compromise when you cant take your speakers with you/need to be quiet.

 

[juman231]

On the orchestra being "squeezed in a small room" effect, the fact that Grado headphones have drivers parallel to your ears do not help. My two headphones, ATH-M50 and SR60, being headphones still make everything sound like they are in my head, but SR60 is much more "intimate" and add to the squeezed room effect, while the M50 is less so. I think it might have to do with the angled driver on the M50s?

 

[Uncle Erik]

It's just part of the headphone experience.
 
For me, speakers are for immersion, real bass, and a true sound stage, but at the price an extremely detailed sound (until you have $20,000 speakers). With my speakers (which are honestly quite low end), I feel like I have the artist performing in my room whereas with headphones, I get to hear every single thing the track has to offer (good or bad) which is why I personally prefer neutral and revealing headphones.
 
Most music is made to be played through speakers (i.e. left and right) and when shove two speakers right next to your ears, there's weird effect of someone being in your head. I have heard of headphones that give a natural and immersive sound but I doubt even at extremely high prices, headphones can replicate the true immersion that speakers offer.
 
Check out the following thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/577606/sound-of-hd800-hd600-hd650-and-the-coolest-thread-ever
 
Headphones and speakers are different domains that unless price is of no object, will probably never crossover each other. What you hear is something to get used and if you don't, then maybe you're just not a headphone person, which is cool as well.

$20k?

Um, no. Get a pair of used Magnepans or Quad ESLs for $1k-$2k. Run them off a good older receiver/integrated costing $200-$500. That's all you need and, yes, it costs quite a bit less than a high-end headphone/amp rig.

When top-tier headphone prices went off the deep end, I started a lot of research on speakers. I already had ProAc Response 2.5 clones (about $1k) and bought Quad ESL-63s for $700. (They need some work, but I'll get to them.)

However, the more I looked, the more signs pointed towards the Linkwitz Orion. The drivers are about $2k, a couple hundred for the boards and plans, $300 for the crossover parts, and $500 for two Adcom GFA-2535 amps to power them. I don't have cabinets. I can get a flat pack for $1,200 or knock them off out of MDF, which would be $100 for MDF and another $100 or so for primer and high-quality enamel. Not sure which way I'll go yet.

Nevertheless, I'm fairly convinced that I won't better the Orion at any price. Designed by one of the masters and I haven't found anyone who didn't rave about them. So, for less than the cost of a SR-009, you can put together a world-class speaker including amplification. Oh, and I'll use an Electra-Print Ultrapath as a preamp. I have about $700 into the innards and about $100 of aluminum for the case.

However, the Quads are really quite good. If I started over, I probably would have just bough a good pair of ESL-63s and forgotten the rest. They're as good as anything I've heard, though I haven't heard the Orions yet.

My bottom line is that headphones are a great value as long as you stick with ones like the HD-600/650, DT880 and RS-1 with decent amps. If you want to go over $1k, look hard at speakers. Speakers are absolutely the value proposition when you venture into four figures.

 

[ursdiego]

Quote:

I seriously don't mean to jack the thread but I have a stupidly basic question for the OP:
 
Do audiophiles only listen to 2 speaker setups? At least assuming you're listening music recorded in stereo.

Hi there Ninja. At least my personnal answer is: Yes. The explanation: Maybe you can get good recordings made for 5.1 or 7.1 etc. speaker setups. They might sound wonderfully nice, IF... The "if" is the crucial point: If you had the same quality DACs, pre- and power-amplifiers, cables, speakers for ALL the channels. I don't remember the exact amount I spent for my set-up, but it must be somewhere between 10 and 20k over the time (started smaller 20 years ago and upgraded then and when...). So if you need 10k $ for a 2 speakers set-up, you would need 30k for a 5.1 speakers setup... etc. Given that "live" music usually comes from in front of you, rear speakers are not so important - but if you had some of a lower quality, they would only lower the overall quality of the front speakers. 5.1 etc. may make sense for home theaters as you might hear an airplane flying  over your head or have someone speaking behind you etc. - but for hifi this is not what you usually need. So if you have those 30k to spend, put them into a really nice 2-speaker setup and you will get much more music than with the same amount spent into a multi speaker setup. Furthermore, as far as I know, no "audiophile"-grade source and amp manufacturors specialise on multi-channel, and I don't know, if many audiophile grade recordings for such set-ups are available.