[grabel]

Hello,

Which of these headphones is best for classical music:

GRADO RS-2,
STAX SRS-2020 Basic System II and
SENNHEISER HD-600

Any other recommendations?

I use Sony xa20es - cd-player

 

[JaZZ]

Welcome to Head-Fi, grabel!

The only member of the Grado family I know which suits classical pretty well is the SR-225, though I wouldn't call it ideal – its spatial presentation doesn't remind very much on a concert hall. I never heard the RS-2, but suppose it can't completely deny the Grado sharpness.

The Stax will be near to ideal for classical: ultimate transparency and cleanness, low coloration, wide soundstage. The Basic system is said to lack bass, though – if it's any similar to the Lambda Pro I once owned, this should be true. Maybe a higher-classed Stax?

The HD 600 is the classic classical headphone. You can spend a lot of money to get it sound excellent, the main thing is to buy an aftermarket cable. Furthermore it needs a good headphone amp and a good source to sound at its best. Its warm and nevertheless transparent character suits orchestral music very well, and so does its large soundstage – although not as extended as with the Stax. You'll find a lot of reviews and comments on it on Head-Fi.

JaZZ

 

[wallijonn]

Grabel,

Welcome to Head-Fi. Sorry about your wallet.

There probably is no "best". You will have to listen to all of them and pick the one you like best.

You probably already have a pre-conceived notion of what "classical" should sound like. Whichever one comes closest to your pre-conceived notion will probably suffice. After all, "Classical music" encompasses a lot of different sub-gendres, like chamber, symphony, quartets, boroque, etc. It's like asking which one does Bach, Mozart or Yo Yo Ma better? Then we may say that the Grado does Mozart better, but the Senn does Bach better and the Stax does Yo Yo Ma better. Which would you then choose?

Your taste will change over time. Your hearing will become more refined as time goes by. And chances are that you may eventually outgrow one headphone and move to another.

I can just as easily ask, are you a sophmore, freshman or senior when it comes to classical music? and again it may all be pointless if i said grado = sophmore, senn = junior, stax = senior.

someone else may say that you have unconsciously already stated your preference: 1 - grado, 2 - stax and 3 - senn.

you may be able to attend a mini-meet in your area. look for other head-fi'ers in your area. open up your yellow pages and visit a few dealers. take a few cds of your favourite music and audition as many as you can. and then re-audition them a few days or weeks later.

 

[gdahl]

I know it wasn't on the list, but I prefer the ATH-W1000 over the HD600 for classical music. When I compared them in my system, the resolution and naturalness in the bass and treble were better with the W1000. The HD600 didn't have an upgraded cable, though, which would certainly change the sound. To my ears, the W1000 is also better than the W100.

As an experienced orchestral conductor, I have a good sense of what live orchestral music should sound like. As others have written, the HD600 offers a more distant perspective in the midrange, while the W1000 has a more immediate presentation. That said, it should be no surprise that I would prefer the A-T phone, because its sound more closely resembles my live listening experiences.

Perhaps if I heard the STAX units I would fall in love with them. Hope I get a chance soon!

Comparison was made using a Philips SACD 1000 player and the Espressivo triode/autoformer headphone amp.

 

[wallijonn]

gdahl,

man, it must really be tough choosing a headphone, then. as a conductor, where would you place the best seats to listen to a concert? In Colorado Springs, the "cheap" seats are very close to the stage, whereas in Philadelphia they are at the highest point and right against the wall (farthest away from the stage). I enjoyed both. In Colorado Springs I fell in love with a Bass player. I thought her playing was fantastic. (I was in 'about' the 4th row, just slight left of centre stage). And in Philadelphia (they still have gas lights outside, on the facade) I readily perceived the triangles. The acoustics were superb.

i'd love to hear the W1000 myself.

do you find certain headphones reproduce certain instruments better than others?

 

[gdahl]

wallijonn,

You have asked some very interesting questions.

When I attend an orchestra concert as an audience member, I like to sit fairly close, but not all the way up front. When you get really close, the ratio between the instruments nearest and most distant is rather large. The inverse square law throws off the balance at this position--the strings along the front edge of the stage can overbalance the woodwinds (of course, the brass and percussion don't need any help!) Also, backing away from the stage a bit brings in some "hall sound" to the mix. The early lateral reflections are also important, and these will be missed in the first few rows or so. But I do like to stay close enough to enjoy a powerful sound during the climactic passages.

I have the good fortune of living near Seattle, which has a fairly new venue (Benaroya Hall) for the Seattle Symphony. Benaroya has a rare quality: the sound is almost exactly the same throughout the entire auditorium! I can't find words to describe the sheer beauty of the sound in Benaroya. Every time I attend, I get goosebumps when the music begins.

From the podium, the sound is quite strong. The inverse square law doesn't throw the balance off--because of the shape of the seating arrangement, the distances don't affect the balances. In a good hall, the balance out in the house will be much like the balance on the podium. But the "weight" of the sound is much different, and of course, the loudness.

Actually, my all-time favorite listening experiences with orchestras (where I was not a participant) have been in smaller spaces. When I was studying conducting, I had opportunities to hear the Seattle Symphony in its rehearsal hall a number of times. Most incredible was the time I got to sit in the orchestra pit during a dress rehearsal of the Seattle Opera's production of one of the Ring operas. The power of the sound almost unbelieveable at times, but still beautiful. Positively exhilerating.

So...headphones can't do all of this, of course. But in some ways, I find listening with headphones to be more similar to the podium experience than listening with speakers. Maybe some of this is because of the orchestra's seating arrangement extending around to both sides. But none of the headphones I have listened with have been able to maintain a beautiful and balanced sound during the loudest passages.

Most orchestral instruments have a large quantity of harmonics in the frequency range where the ear is most sensitive. Aberrations in this range cause problems with most of the treble instruments. Oboes can be very difficult! Also, the quality and evenness of the high frequencies have as much to do with the perception of "realism" as they do with the music itself. Any nonsense here inevitably will cause the music to sound less realistic. The sound of the string section is profoundly affected by the quality of the highs. Any edginess, haze or sizzle ruins it for me. Of course, realism in the other frequency ranges is important.

For me, the HD600 had a bit of haze/tizz in the top end that made the string section sound a bit artificial. My W1000 doesn't have this problem at all, while not sounding rolled-off. Also, I hadn't noticed the HD600's midbass rubberiness until I got the W1000 and later returned to the HD600. After that, I gained a strong appreciation for the quality and transparency of the W1000's bass.

 

[wallijonn]

so whould you say 10th - 25th row, front and centre? if this were a football field, i would say 15th - 25th row, front and centre (50 yard line)

Glad to hear that Seattle has a world class symphonic hall. in nyc either fischer hall or carnegie (i can't remember which one my friend said) is supposed to have horrible acoustics - supposedly the very next seat could have deadspots. Just switching seats (or your head by 1 foot) is enough to hear music "magically" appear.

 

[gdahl]

wallijon,

I've been in halls like that, with many hot and dead spots. Yuk!

Last season, our seats in Benaroya Hall were in row J, which is actually only about the fifth or sixth row. This year we're in row X. It sounds great, but I'd rather sit in the 6-10 range. But really, the sound changes very little.

Often, some of the best-sounding seats are up against the back wall, because the boundary effects cause a stronger sound for the distance, with full reinforcement of the lowest frequencies. Of course, these are often the least expensive seats, too. In the old Seattle Opera House (now being renovated), the middle of the orchestra (main) floor was rather dead. The best seats (sonically) were in the last row of the second balcony! Unfortunately, opera is less involving when you can't see the faces of the performers. Sure hope the renovation improves the evenness. The acoustics were designed by the same people that did Benaroya Hall, so my hopes are high.

My 100th post. Yay!

 

[grabel]

What about AKG K 1000? I haven't hear these, but I suppose that this open-look-style would work well at classical music. (stereo image is probably most important thing to me..)

What do You think about my Sony's "headphone output" - is it crap?

 

[gdahl]

I'd love to hear the AKG K1000, but I have never had the chance. I don't think they would be practical for me to own, though, because I really need some amount of isolation. I started with open-air Beyers, but the residual noise irritated my wife sometimes. Next I tried Etys, which bothered her because I couldn't hear her, making her feel shut out. The A-T's have been about right...I might have hoped for a bit more isolation from ambient noise, but at least I don't annoy anyone when I'm listening. And unlike the situation with the Etys, my wife can easily see that I'm wearing headphones, so she can tell when she has to get my attention visually.

Likewise, I'd like to hear the STAX phones. Lynn Olson and I are considering designing and building a new all-out tube amp for the STAX phones. He described his preliminary thoughts to me the other day, and I think he has a good start.

What "Sony's headphone output" are you talking about? The Sony CD player's built-in headphone circuit and output jack?

 

[wallijonn]

grabel,

I own the K1000, and I'll probably get a lot of flack for my following statement:

the k1000 are fantastic headphones if you want to hear every intricate detail. but as it is the greatest of open designs, the best way to listen to them is behind a closed closet door, as you will be able to hear all ouside noise (like fans, aire conditioners, bells (microwave), telephones, toilets flushing, people walking upstairs, dogs barking, car horns blowing, crickets, cats making love, babies crying, lawn mowers running, ice cream trucks passing, jack hammers, door knocks, door bells, steam pipes singing or clanking, rain against the windersill, wind howling, children playing outside, neighbours fighting, your neighbour's music, airplanes flying overhead, train whistles, truck horns, refrigerator doors closing, drawers being opened and closed, your wife calling you, people walking up the stairs, people running down the stairs, the pool pump going, birds chirping, cars crashing, iceicles and snow cracking, etc.).

like a lot of low impedance cans, there seems to be a volume threshold where it distorts horribly once you pass that threshold. so i wouldn't classify them good for symphonies (like the 1812) but they should be great for chamber and boroque. and if you did want to listen to the 1812, you would have to find the loudest passage, adjust the volume to below distortion level, or a level which you consider moderate, and then start the 1812 from the beginning. that way you can sit back and relax and not have to run for the volume control when a cacaphonous (ooh, is that a word?) passage comes along.

if you a have lounger, laying back tends to increase the perceived bass.

i love my k1000. but i can't just whip them out and use them whenever i want. i have to wait for just the right time. which is why i have the dt831 and k501 - for all the rest of the time. you listen to the k1000 in total silence. it's something to be enjoyed and savoured, in other words, a treat.

-----------
listening to Dean Martin's Greatest Hits

 

[vwap]

Quote:

Originally posted by wallijonn Glad to hear that Seattle has a world class symphonic hall. in nyc either fischer hall or carnegie (i can't remember which one my friend said) is supposed to have horrible acoustics - supposedly the very next seat could have deadspots. Just switching seats (or your head by 1 foot) is enough to hear music "magically" appear.

Hehe.. I doubt it's Carnegie.. hell. there aren't even that many SEATS in Carnegie

It's just the lower "general admission" area.. then the back/side wall seats... But who knows.. it could be. I've never actually heard anything at Carnegie, although I've played there with my youth symphony before.. From what we were told, the acoustics in there are supposedly amazing... and you can hear feet tapping and people on stage talking. Supposedly, anyway. That coulda been a tactic they used to make us shut up

 

[ooheadsoo]

Personally, I hope to one day have a sound system designed so that you could actually choose which position in the pit you would like to listen from. I would love to hear old pieces I have played from the position of the section that I played in for the piece! Come to think of it, I've heard more live classical performances from the stage/pit than in the audience. This is definitely something I would enjoy, but somehow I don't think it's something for the masses

gdahl/grabel, have you heard the 600s with the inner foam removed? I'm finding that it has solved a lot of qualms and issues I had with my 580s with the foam insert in place. I'm not sure about the hissing you've heard, gdahl, in the violins and oboes, because I've only so far listened to the EMI Black Dog Opera Library edition of the Barber of Seville, and it's not the best recording in the world. I respect the performance though. Not that I've heard many others

I certainly don't own any other recordings of it at this time. I'll give my Oue/Minnesota Orch Candide Suite cd a listen. I'm not sure if my ears are good enough to hear the sizzle you were mentioning, though, and I never payed attention to the details in the strings in the first place, with the foam inserts in place. My ears were much too overwhelmed by the bloated bass in the cellos/basses to hear any of the finer details.

 

[ooheadsoo]

If I pick up a copy of Lucia di Lammermoor any time soon, I'll listen to the sextet for the crescendo in the B section.

Can you tell I'm taking another opera class yet?

 

[ooheadsoo]

I must admit I'm not hearing any sizzle on either barber of seville or candide. There were a few prominent oboe spots is candide, and I noticed nothing outstanding about them. Maybe you could tell me which recordings you heard the sizzle on and how loud you were listening to the recording at (relatively.)

Maybe my ears just aren't as good as yours.