[triode12]

Quote:

Great thread - thanks to Golden Ears and Currawong.  As a reluctant head-fier, as it were, I strongly relate to Golden Ears original post.  I'd only edit that the raison d'etre for headphones in my world has absolutely nothing to do with portability and everything to do with privacy (which has been touched on since the OP).  Given the choice (wife not home) I will always choose speakers over headphones as that experience engages me more completely as well as being a far more realistic presentation of the musical event.  One statement that particularly resonates, and I'm paraphrasing, is that I have not listened to any headphone rig that completely suspends my disbelief that I am listening to headphones.  In the absence of being able to 'feel' the music in addition to hearing it, the illusion is entirely lost on me.  I started out young as well, though at the ripe old age of 17, but started with speakers and have been immersed in that world for over thirty years now.  It's not that I don't enjoy music via headphones, I do or I wouldn't be here posting.  My experience of music is much fuller and I tend to loose myself more readily when listening to speakers.  When I do loose myself in headphone listening it is more of a detachment from my body, and remains all in the head.  With speakers the experience is an immersion that is all-inclusive.  That's the best I can do at an explanation for the moment. 
 

+1

 

[Golden Ears]

Infinty RS1b bass... sooo much better than the vast majority of speakers out there (BUT... a bear to tune) ... alas the Entec SW-1's put all other bass drivers to shame that I have heard... they have true delineation of musical bass overtones throughout their range. 
 
The RS1b sound better in rooms not made of sheetrock or exposed brick or cinderblock...they sound best in rooms made with old style paster and lathe construction...why???  Who knows...perhaps the uneven plaster and lathe helps reduce standing waves...
 
If you ever heard the RS-1 series in bad rooms ie.. bad dimensions or highly reflective walls, or no carpeting, or in the case of sheet rock- resonant walls that reinforce a particular set of frequencies.. (Smaller speakers do not have this issue as they can not energize a room and fail in other ways as a result)... you really have not heard the potential of these speakers.
 
Bookshelves full of records or books go a log way to taming a room as does thick carpeting for the first 12-15 feet minimum in front of the speakers..
 
But for those who don't like the RS1 bass...reconfigure your room...add dampening...or try another room... or set them up along the long wall instead.. they are capable of great sound.. Entecs are just the tasty burnt sugar atop the creme brulee- certainly it is a tasty desert without the  sugar topping...but the perfectly torched sugar (Entec's) just make it ethereal.
 

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Sheet rock - you mean drywall?
 
Interesting to hear about the RS 1b's bass - knowing how room and placement sensitive bass can be, I can imagine that large bass towers compound any problems.

 

[jax]

Sheetrock = Drywall, yes.  One solution if you are purpose-building a room is to double-rock everything (two sheets sandwiched together), and use either blow-in insulation, or batting that is specifically made for sound dampening (expensive).  Lathe and plaster probably does better because it is one very large and solid membrane, rather than many large floating sheets screwed to studs. 

 

[Uncle Erik]

jax, you can also put soundboard behind the drywall. That stuff is awesome. When we rebuild our apartments, we put soundboard behind the drywall on all the common walls. I don't think we've had a single noise complaint from tenants since we've started doing that.

Odds are I'll pick up a house some time this year. It'll be a place that needs work, of course , and I'll put soundboard up throughout. The place will be dead quiet inside and I'll be able to crank the speakers.

 

[jax]

Quote:

jax, you can also put soundboard behind the drywall. That stuff is awesome. When we rebuild our apartments, we put soundboard behind the drywall on all the common walls. I don't think we've had a single noise complaint from tenants since we've started doing that.

Odds are I'll pick up a house some time this year. It'll be a place that needs work, of course

, and I'll put soundboard up throughout. The place will be dead quiet inside and I'll be able to crank the speakers.

 
Absolutely, Erik.  It's a lot more work because to do it right you're really supposed to be gluing the board to the studs, and then gluing the drywall to the soundboard.  Not to mention hauling and cutting twice as many pieces of material.  But yes, that'd be the way to go!  A labor of love for sure!  
 

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Quote:

jax, you can also put soundboard behind the drywall. That stuff is awesome. When we rebuild our apartments, we put soundboard behind the drywall on all the common walls. I don't think we've had a single noise complaint from tenants since we've started doing that.

Odds are I'll pick up a house some time this year. It'll be a place that needs work, of course

, and I'll put soundboard up throughout. The place will be dead quiet inside and I'll be able to crank the speakers.

Damn, we needed that in my apartment...
 

 

[jax]

 
Quote:

Quote:

jax, you can also put soundboard behind the drywall. That stuff is awesome. When we rebuild our apartments, we put soundboard behind the drywall on all the common walls. I don't think we've had a single noise complaint from tenants since we've started doing that.

Odds are I'll pick up a house some time this year. It'll be a place that needs work, of course

, and I'll put soundboard up throughout. The place will be dead quiet inside and I'll be able to crank the speakers.

Damn, we needed that in my apartment...
 

Looks like you need a bigger apartment

  I'm feeling sorry for your neighbors....all of them...the whole building....the whole block.  I hope they like your music. Judging from the lens distortion I'd say that was some bad-ass nearfield rig too!

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Quote:

Looks like you need a bigger apartment

  I'm feeling sorry for your neighbors....all of them...the whole building....the whole block.  I hope they like your music. Judging from the lens distortion I'd say that was some bad-ass nearfield rig too!

That's actually a stitch of three separate photos.  Back against the wall, I could just barely get it all in at 17mm (on my D200).  So I decided to stitch a photo together instead, and the result is a much better representation of what it actually looked like.  It's only about 7 feet from the speakers to the front of the couch.  Oh, and they didn't normally all sit like that...  That was just for the photo.
 
Amazingly, I only got three or so noise complaints.  One of them was with the small Klipsch speakers sitting next to the TV! 
 
I tried to only play them at loud volumes during the afternoon, when no one was around.  That didn't always work though.
 
Now they're all in the worst place possible... My parents' basement...  And they just retired, so I can't crank it while they're gone at work.  It doesn't really matter though, because I won't see them for another six months after Sunday (heading back to Sweden to finish grad school).
 
I'm only taking this with me:
 

 
Oh, and HD 600s & MS1is.  But at least I'll have some speakers.

 

[Golden Ears]

Sheet rock - drywall. Well it's like a drum. The sheet rock skin is "stretched" ie nailed to the studs like a drum skin. The issue us that each 4 x 8 sheet is about the same size so they all resonate at about the same frequency and hence reinforce those frequencies much like a room whose w x l h dimensions are multiples of each other like a 7 x 14 x 21 room or a 14 x 7 x14 room. It us just that the drum frequency is the same no matter what size the room is. Because plaster and lathe is completely uneven in it's application and indeed at different thicknesses at times as the mixture thickens during the long application process. It is like " one continous shell" or sheet . well ........ It has an extremely low resonant frequency because it is like a drum sheet the size of the room. Also as the size of the shell gets huge relative to its thickness the drum starts to become very " lossey" like a condom stretched across a doorway frame. It just loses it's ability to reflect energy back into the room. The irregular spreading of the plaster on the lathe might vary as the mix thickens or a different worker is used .... It oozes out the back of the lathe and horse hair hold it together in some instances. The result is that vibrations have trouble traversing the sheet.

 

[jax]

 
Quote:

Sheet rock - drywall. Well it's like a drum. The sheet rock skin is "stretched" ie nailed to the studs like a drum skin. The issue us that each 4 x 8 sheet is about the same size so they all resonate at the sane frequency and gence reinforce those frequencies much like a room whose w x l h dimensions are multiples of each other like a 7 x 14 x 21 room or a 14 x 7 x14 room. It us just that the drum frequency is the same no matter what size the room is. Because plaster and lathe is completely uneven in it's applicAtion and indeed At times. " one continous shell" or sheet . well ........ It has an extremely low resonant frequency because it is like a drum sheet the size of the room. Also as the size of the shell gets huge relative tonis thickness the drum starts to become very " lossey" like a condom stretched across a doorway frame. It just loses it's ability to reflect energy back into the room. The irregular spreading of the plaster on the lathe might vary as the mix thickens or a different worker is used .... It oozes out the back of the lathe and horse hair hold it together in some instances. The result is that vibrations have trouble traversing the sheet.

I don't know of anyone who nails sheetrock to studs anymore.  It is more commonly screwed to the studs.  The point-connection (screws or nails) allows some resonance, yes, and therein lies part of the problem.  I don't think the size of the shell relative to the thickness has as much to to do with it as does the multiple sheets of same size connected only via points to the stud subframe underneath.  Also the structure of the drywall itself - the plaster being isolated and enclosed in between what are  basically sheets of smooth paper that do not bond at all to the studs or to each other.   We have drywall upstairs where we did a renovation, and lathe and plaster downstairs that is original to the 1930 structure.  Pound on the wall upstairs and you can hear and feel it vibrate (subtle as it may be).  Do the same to the wall downstairs and it is more like pounding on a rock.  I've never tried stretching a condom across a doorway frame, so can't comment on the metaphor beyond that the ...well, where the heck did you come up with such an idea?!

. 

 

[Golden Ears]

What you said is exactly what I was trying to describe... The drywall sheets being the same size all resonate at a similar frequency... just like a smaller cymbal makes a different sound than a large cymbal.
 
Screwing or Nailing the material makes marginal difference... even glueing it... doesn't make much difference. its the sheet size that resonates.. it is both lossey and reflective at the same time... but because it is lossey... when bass pressurizes a room.....  
 
Plaster and lathe is almost a single sheet of plaster without seams.... turns your room into an egg. It's better..
 
well...sheetrock/drywall
 
 Instead of it really pressurizing the room in a  clean manner... the sheetrock "flexes" . And then a bit later (out of synch with the bass beat)  contracts.... pressurizing the room when the pressure should be gone... (However small this effect is ... it is audible).
 
Basically... I could describe this better... think of a cheaply constructed sealed (or even a bass reflex box - lossey by definition) speaker box but with exceptionally good drivers. as the woofer pressurizes the air within the speaker.... a  thin speaker box would flex losing some of the energy of the woofer and that  vibration would occur on the outside...
 
Like a well made speaker box if hit with your knuckles will not make a hollow sound... but very little audible little sound and appear solid. 
 
A room is nothing more than a box around your speaker box... and like a 3rd order bandpass enclosure...made of 1/8 inch plywood would sound bad (blurry one note bass) ... so will your room- if made of sheetrock and if it has bass drivers strong enough to pressurize it.
 
In some rare cases... some (typically small inexpensive) speakers - (intentionally or not) are voiced for  sounding better in sheetrock environments.. like they were intentioanlly designed for condo dwellers... Such a speaker example would be AR powered Partners- which were bass light in solid rooms but sounded subjectively more "fleshed out" in sheetrock rooms.. They had small bass drivers and needed that extra ooomph from the walls. They can not compete with full range speakers at all... but  they try to make the best of what to me appears to be  a very bad trade off.
 
IMHO a good quality FULL RANGE speaker capable of producing life like volumes (multiple woofers)  of delineated bass  below 40 hz... will suffer in  typical sheet rock rooms.

 

[Golden Ears]

Ok.... a better description...for headfi...
 
How about you take closed headphones (not lossey and acoustically non reverberant) and either used foam ear pads (bass loss) or some odd material that was like a ballon over your ears- that would not pressurize correctly and would return pressure to your ear drums out of synch with the bass beat?
 
In headphones... the "room" is the space inside the cans. The walls of this room are the ear cups.

 

[matbhuvi]

I'll take away whatever good things i said about speakers. Today, when i am listening to my favorite song, when my wife and kid not at my home, the simple sound of my room heater took me offfffffff. It was so frustrating..i am so mad..back to my IEM now. 

 

[log0]

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Quote:

Great thread - thanks to Golden Ears and Currawong.  As a reluctant head-fier, as it were, I strongly relate to Golden Ears original post.  I'd only edit that the raison d'etre for headphones in my world has absolutely nothing to do with portability and everything to do with privacy (which has been touched on since the OP).  Given the choice (wife not home) I will always choose speakers over headphones as that experience engages me more completely as well as being a far more realistic presentation of the musical event.  One statement that particularly resonates, and I'm paraphrasing, is that I have not listened to any headphone rig that completely suspends my disbelief that I am listening to headphones.  In the absence of being able to 'feel' the music in addition to hearing it, the illusion is entirely lost on me.  I started out young as well, though at the ripe old age of 17, but started with speakers and have been immersed in that world for over thirty years now.  It's not that I don't enjoy music via headphones, I do or I wouldn't be here posting.  My experience of music is much fuller and I tend to loose myself more readily when listening to speakers.  When I do loose myself in headphone listening it is more of a detachment from my body, and remains all in the head.  With speakers the experience is an immersion that is all-inclusive.  That's the best I can do at an explanation for the moment. 
 

+1

I will +2 that.
 
I'm new to high fidelity audio. It was only a few months ago that I stepped into a local dealer (Front Row Center Theater and Sound in Coral Springs, FL) looking to hear some Paradigm speakers for home theater use and ended up experiencing a revelation, a musical experience that I will never forget. But I did not listen to the Paradigm speakers.
 
My first foray into speakers was for home theater use. I found that presence and a feeling of being eveloped within a movie was the best things speakers could do for me. To that end, I purchased some Definitive Technology BP7000sc, CLR3000, and BP7002s. This is an incredible home theater setup, but as Eliot at Front Row Center told me, these were not the preferred type of speaker for music. What did I care? I didn't listen to music much on the speakers but found that music sounded pretty damn good, not "I'm There" good, but just good.
 
Eliot invited me back to his special home theater room where I unassumingly was going to be treated to a musical revelation that I never knew was possible. In this room stood two Reference 3A Grand Veenas hooked up to two McIntosh MC2301 tube monoblocks and some high end pre-amplifier (a McIntosh as well) and expensive CD player. About $20k-$30k of audio equipment in front of me. I don't know much about hifi but the great part about hifi is that I don't need to know much about amps and speakers to appreciate the sound and feel the "I'm there" experience. Eliot began to put on some Demo CD's, he began with Patricia Barber's a Fortnight in France and played the track "White World". I never heard of this artist or track before, and all the music Eliot had played I tried to take note of in order to listen to later.
 
Listening to this song, I knew then that my perceived limitation of what music can sound like when reproduced through speakers was shattered. I could swear there was someone in the room singing and a live band performing along side her. The room which the speakers were housed in were acoustically treated, the room was not too large but the sound stage presented by the Grand Veenas hooked up to the McIntosh tube amps made the sound stage feel all encompassing. The surround effect of these two speakers in this room made me feel more enveloped than my 5.1 Definitive system ever did. I won't bore you with the details of the other songs Eliot had played for me, but suffice it to say, I was hooked onto hifi and have been scheming of ways to purchase these speakers and a similar setup ever since. The problem of course is money. Seeing as I'm getting married in a couple months and have a house to buy, hifi is low on the list of priorities.
 
Enter head-fi. I've never given up my aspirations of owning an incredible stereo system but put them on hold. Could headphones take me to that audio nirvana I felt at Eliot's home theater at a fraction of the price? I thought/think it's possible. I've read all the reviews of the LCD-2's and how amazing it can sound when properly amped/sourced. But will it ever sound as a $30k stereo system? I doubt it but I wondered how close it could come. I've never heard the LCD-2's and don't have much head-fi equipment other than a set of Shure SE530's that I use with my iPhone when listenting to some loseless files which sound pretty darn good. But I can never shake the feeling that I'm listening to headphones. For those of you who have listened to the LCD-2 and a proper stereo system, does the experience come close at all?
 
After reading the original post by Golden Ears I was discouraged by the notion that headphones can never sound "that" good, I harbored the idea that they could come close. As always it depends on the listener but I'd like to get some opinions of those with LCD-2's who may have also listened to a high end stereo system and how they compare. And thanks to Golden Ears for posting his perspective on head-fi and how it relates to speakers with respect to taking one to audio nirvana.