[Golden Ears]

I just see such long "Sigs" listing "endless gear" that likely... just .... well, sits around most of the time unused.
 
 
IMHO if you spend a bunch all at once. You might be able to get a single headphone rig that does just about everything.
 
But so many head-fi'ers buy a set of headphones for rock, another for jazz, another portable set..etc...
 
Lots may have  enough invested to have already bought the headphone of their dreams AND a decent set of speakers and amps. (I'd just sell it all... gather my cash and buy the right thing).
 
If you never listen to live unamplified music... you'd think you can not choose wisely  because you'll never know what to listen for. Tip...
 
What is remarkable about the human ear is that it has some "instinct" to listen for things.
 
For instance: 
If you only spoke to someone you never met over a very low fidelity speaker (say a cell phone with its awful compression) and then you meet---> IN PERSON... you would find that the person's voice is very much like you expected it to be (without the crummy speaker)- in person.
 
So having better speakers helps to make the person sound live, and of course as most people are all able to discern perhaps 200- 300 different telephone voices without much difficulty, we , over time can learn to discern between different Pianos, guitars, Microphones, mixing consoles, amplifiers etc...
 
It just takes time to learn, and to pay attention.  But our ear certainly is more sensitive in particular frequency areas as opposed to the frequency extremes. So when auditioning speakers it helps to pay attention to the human voice.. perhaps one you are extremely familiar with (for a teen it might be their mother) for an adult male it might be their wife.  The best is if the vocal used falls within the area that is hardest to be correct (the crossover region of the midrange and tweeter) - some voices just skirt those regions and might not be ideal.
 
And to use a well made recording of that to select your loudspeakers for the area in which your ears are most likely to detect any deviation from real.
 
 
Unfortunately most people listen for  the highs or the extreme lows when choosing a speaker... which often isn't very satisfying over the long term.
 
If the speaker passes on the well known human voice test. Then you should next check for the highs and the lows. The high end should be extended well beyond 30kHz preferably an octave past 15- 20kHz so that there is less directional "beaming" at the limits of the speaker driver.
 
Just don't ever buy a speaker in a noisy environment..... Best Buy, Frys, WALMART, etc.  The only reason I recommend the Adam A7 and A7x is because for those who do not live in densely populated higher income areas with high end Hi fi stores- Guitar center has them with cheap financing... and after you have paid off your Adam A7x's you can readily sell them to buy another speaker if you wish. So instead of saving for 2 years (budding little  college dorm dwelling head-fiers) .. you get to hear it/own it  today.
 
 

 

[Syan25]

Nicely put

 

[AnAnalogSpirit]

Headphones are so much less ANTI-INTIMATE a tool than a quality, ravishing pair of genuinely harmoniously congealed apex of design-principle-at-play that a HEADPHONE RIG and YOUR VERY OWN, __reverberating__ Human Inner Ear Drums, at-play, in-a-duet, in-concert, FOR-YOUR-MIND'S-EYE... are and can ever be. And to me, will forever trump the imaging potential of the Stereo.
 
I've had a fun 7.1 Surround Sound system. I know what good Stereo sounds like. I've been immersed in concerts and live performances since age sixteen (31 now). I've even had the pleasure of once (in my reckless youth, thankfully I can still HEAR) sitting inside of a bass speaker cabinet during a performance for a bit. I guess I'm a bit of a bass aficionado. It hugs you. The point is this...
 
...a good Headphone resolves an image of the music that is much more refined and captivating than even a good stereo projected one can manage, due to the absence of strange reflections space and scope mismatches and processing...
 
Though the original poster is correct, while THIS poster may find Headphone Imaging more Intimate and Satisfying, a pair of headphones is no Stereo System.
 
Thanks for the read.

 

[zychan1]

Great thread, unfortunately for me, speakers just aren't practical at the moment. 
 
I got onto Head-Fi a year ago to try to get the best sound out of my iPod. As time went by I craved for better sound and was adverse to carrying even the Fiio E7/E9 in my pocket plugged into my iPhone, so I started assembling a headphone rig in my university accommodation room. Being a student I had to look around the For Sale forum and eBay to buy stuff used which offered much better bang for buck at a lower price point.
 
I can see how a good speaker system can be (relatively) cheap to assemble, just like how you can assemble a (relatively) cheap headphone rig. However for somebody who can't even afford a T1 or HD800 used, speakers are beyond my reach now. Also my job when I graduate later this year will probably involve a lot of travelling, hence it won't be practical to be bringing around speakers, especially when I can't realistically optimise my room to have good acoustics.
 
I can see myself moving to speakers maybe after 10 years or so when I'm settled down and have enough cash to build a house with good acoustics and also assemble a decent set of speakers. Until then, I'll stick to upgrading my headphone rig bit-by-bit  

 

[Mkubota1]

 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zychan1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I can see how a good speaker system can be (relatively) cheap to assemble, just like how you can assemble a (relatively) cheap headphone rig.

Totally true.  There are some really, really good bookshelf/ monitor speakers out there for about the price of a set of HD650s.  All you need to do is put them on some decent stands and give them reasonable power and you're in heaven- imaging and soundstage like you won't get from ANY headphones, K1000s included.
 
But like you, for many of us it's about the space and sharing walls.  On top of that, I think to get truly good sound you need near dead-silence.  And even if you have your own walls, that can be hard to achieve even if you live alone.  Unless you have a dedicated listening room in a basement or you live in a remote/ secluded area, it's hard to beat the isolation that headphones can give.

 

[Syan25]

Ah...what I wouldn't give for silence...

 

[zychan1]

Quote:

Totally true.  There are some really, really good bookshelf/ monitor speakers out there for about the price of a set of HD650s.  All you need to do is put them on some decent stands and give them reasonable power and you're in heaven- imaging and soundstage like you won't get from ANY headphones, K1000s included.

 
If such speakers exist and are able to run on their own (i.e. without pre-amp etc) it might certainly be worth checking out, though atm I'm already struggling to justify paying so much for hi-fi equipment while still studying (and they are coming out of my parents' pockets). Maybe when I start working and have a place of my own I might consider going for one of these.

Quote:

But like you, for many of us it's about the space and sharing walls.  On top of that, I think to get truly good sound you need near dead-silence.  And even if you have your own walls, that can be hard to achieve even if you live alone.  Unless you have a dedicated listening room in a basement or you live in a remote/ secluded area, it's hard to beat the isolation that headphones can give.  

Certainly not in the UK or this part of the world, but I can see myself going back to Malaysia in 10, 15 years time and building my own house and (probably) pack it with all sorts of sound insulation walls 

 But yeah, that's not until a long way off and I have to make sure I earn enough moolah first. Benefits of coming from a (relatively) unknown part of the world, it's easier (and cheaper) to build your own house, but costs for audio equipment will be through the roof
 

 

[Mkubota1]

Quote:

Ah...what I wouldn't give for silence...

X1000!!! 

 

[Currawong]

When I was in university, there wasn't anything like the variety of speakers available now, especially where I lived, let alone active speakers, and the only place to plug headphones was into a CD player or hi-fi amp.  I did recently listen to my father's ~$4000 (when new in 1990 or so) system. It's amazing how much better gear one can get compared to then for quite a bit less than that, especially if one buys second-hand.
 
Most striking to me is how the physical format of hi-fi components have changed, active speakers being one example. For me, it was always CD player, integrated amp, speakers.  The high-end gear split the amp, and a DAC was an exotic concept. The first DAC I ever encountered was the Audio Alchemy gear.  Now we have DAC/amps, DAC/pre-amps, monoblock amps, Class D gear and music servers.  Then there are all the unconventional types of speakers available.  It makes trying to ponder a speaker rig overwhelming. Headphones are bad enough as it is.

 

[Mkubota1]

 
Quote:

 It's amazing how much better gear one can get compared to then for quite a bit less than that, especially if one buys second-hand.

There's a lot of whining around these parts about how bad digital can be and how evil that fruit company is.  I'm guessing those people never dealt with what we did in the past or have some heavy-duty nostalgia thing going on.  (I get it- watching a record spin IS a thing of beauty!)  One thing I thought about the other day while wiping off the fingerprints on my Redbox Blu-ray rental disc:  People who grew up with vinyl have that instinct not to touch the surface of media as if it were an open wound, while people born after that probably don't even understand that concept and treat discs the same way they do an SD card or a sheet of paper.
 
Quote:

The first DAC I ever encountered was the Audio Alchemy gear. 

I had to Google them to see what happened to them.  It's amazing how companies come and go- huh?

 

[Pricklely Peete]

 
Quote:

Infinty RS1b bass... sooo much better than the vast majority of speakers out there (BUT... a bear to tune) ... alas the Entec SW-1's put all other bass drivers to shame that I have heard... they have true delineation of musical bass overtones throughout their range. 
 
The RS1b sound better in rooms not made of sheetrock or exposed brick or cinderblock...they sound best in rooms made with old style paster and lathe construction...why???  Who knows...perhaps the uneven plaster and lathe helps reduce standing waves...
 
If you ever heard the RS-1 series in bad rooms ie.. bad dimensions or highly reflective walls, or no carpeting, or in the case of sheet rock- resonant walls that reinforce a particular set of frequencies.. (Smaller speakers do not have this issue as they can not energize a room and fail in other ways as a result)... you really have not heard the potential of these speakers.
 
Bookshelves full of records or books go a log way to taming a room as does thick carpeting for the first 12-15 feet minimum in front of the speakers..
 
But for those who don't like the RS1 bass...reconfigure your room...add dampening...or try another room... or set them up along the long wall instead.. they are capable of great sound.. Entecs are just the tasty burnt sugar atop the creme brulee- certainly it is a tasty desert without the  sugar topping...but the perfectly torched sugar (Entec's) just make it ethereal.
 

Believe it or not plaster is semi porous, the lattice behind the plaster allows it to diffuse into the supporting structure what is absorbed/reflected/damped by the plaster and it allows the wall some minimal flex which contributes to the dampening effect...the walls coated in this stuff actually act like a reflector/diffuser/dampener of sorts rather than the purely reflective qualities of modern sheet rock. The uneven coat of plaster cuts back on sympathetic resonance excitation. In my old listening room I've had resonance in the sheet rock that caused nails to back their way out over time. It's a good idea to add a lot of sheet rock screws to your room if you can...certainly many more than would be used normally. It's annoying to try and correct a resonance after the wall has been finished, when in doubt use a million or a lot of good quality screws I say. Even concrete with it's semi porous surface can dampen to a small degree better than paper faced gypsum sheet rock...the ideal solution is to properly treat the room (bass traps, diffusers, dampening panels are a must) no matter what it's construction comprises of. Too many audiophiles end up going through a pile of gear trying to get the sound quality just right when they should be concentrating finite $$$$ on getting the room right first with the gear they already have. Get off the gear treadmill and view the room as an equal part of the system equation as important as speaker selection. Another issue I have seen time and again is getting too much speaker for the size of the room and vice versa. In another post you touched on room loading....that in conjunction with acoustic treatment prepares one or arms one with choices appropriate for their room sizes and expectation of outcome. Once you take the gear choice error out of the mix the prospect of putting together a system that kicks butt is far easier to accomplish.
 
You are correct about the books/Lp's being a an effective quasi dampener/diffuser but they act in such a narrow freq band it's tough to get the proper result and have the room look decent (livable). Spending a couple hundred dollars on proper acoustic panels can make for a much more satisfying result. Heavy rugs or carpet are darn good reflection absorbers overuse of such can be counterproductive however. A lot of folks tend to go overboard with these things and completely kill the rooms qualities...the ideal mix is a dead end live end symmetric treatment...have the end where the system is located dead acoustically including handling first reflection points of your main speakers and the opposite end of your room "live" with just a corner traps at the ceiling junctions (triangle traps) and a big old diffuser panel directly behind the listening position on the back wall. This method retains a sense of excitement while giving the listening position a really decent HQ experience. Roughly speaking money wise to do this is around 2K USD. Not that much when you consider gear can easily be 20X that (for serious setups). Even a modest system can gain major fidelity leaps by treating the room in this manner.
 
It's funny after reading your comments about the Infinity woofers handling a small part of the Freq spectrum a knowing smile came over me since I have done nearly the same thing with my Eminent Tech speakers...the subs take over at 60hz while the ET woofers handle 60-180hz with the planar panels handling the rest from 180 to 40 khz. Additional Maggie panels handle 120 HZ and up. It's amazing to find that Maggie and the ET panels mesh very very well together (same voicing practically which give a fairly believable wave launch with all of the additional sq in of usable planar paneling in use) Needless to say the amp power required to get there is somewhat ridiculous (currently bi amping the panels, 6 mono channels of 150W to 300W each, total 650 W RMS in addition to 2 x 504 W sealed subs, serious horsepower which I would like to double with all new amps in the future) . The ET's crave Watts while the Maggies crave current delivery...an oddball arrangement that seems to work well using the proper amps for the respective speaker needs. I'm sure the ET's require a bit of current as well although Bruce Thigpen (ET's mastermind) suggests high power amps ahead of lower power high current delivery. The ideal amps for my requirements IMO would be able to deliver both in large quantities.
 
Room correction is applied to the sub tower and some acoustic treatment helps with the acoustic issues to a fair degree. I really need to get another room to fully realize the potential of my system...I need a good size rectangular room...my current room is rather oddly shaped and not symmetric ...it has 5 of the 6 surfaces solid concrete however with insulation dampening on the top half of the concrete. Cuts down on the reflections by a huge margin but does nothing for diffusion at the live end. It's not perfect but I make the best of it.
 
Peete.

 

[melomaniac]

to me, the real story is in how close good and well-amped headphones get.
 
not that my IEMs are close to a kilowatt amp pushing full range ribbon planars - they're different, and we know about the trade-offs.
 
however, it is true that custom IEMs and the top tier of full-size cans offer amazing sound, far better than a couple decades ago, closing the gap to speaker rigs considerably.

 

[olor1n]

A wealth of knowledge and experience in here. The best audio gear I've spent an extended period of time with is the modest headphone setup in my sig. Reading through the posts here makes me long for a stereo setup. Considering the longevity of these components if selected carefully, I could justify a no expense spared approach but like many have stated, it's simply not practical for me at this stage. Someday.

 

[Anaxilus]

Here's a very light read on someone giving headphones a go.
 
http://www.avguide.com/review/stax-sr-007-omega-reference-series-ii-earspeakers-srm-007-tii-energiser-hi-fi-76

 

[Kiiskinen]

I'm fairly new to the entire concept of Hi-Fi, but I think this thread is a bit silly honestly.
 
A motorbike will never be a car. A gaming console will never be a computer. Rap will never be metal, and metal will never be rap. And so on.
 
Back when I was 19 I had a car with two 12" subwoofers in the trunk, and some cheap 3-way speakers in the front. Not exactly a balanced sound or precise audio reproduction, but it was fun as heck to listen to. And perfect for annoying old people. There's a proper studio-monitor set by Genelec at the studio I frequent (well.. haven't been there for a while, but will spend a lot of time there in the near future), which certainly provides everything the car "setup" (if you can even call it a setup) lacked, but isn't really that fun to listen to. My dad has 4 old 3-way speakers by JVC (or World/Universal/Something similar Indrusties, which as I recall became JVC during 80's... but I digress) setup to a vinyl player in a small room with brick floors and wood walls/roof. When I visit my old man I usually like to go to this room, put on something classical or classic rock (Straits, for example) and just kind of sit there in a comfy chair in a bathrobe and enjoy the music. It's not a fun or a precise system, but it's relaxing and enjoyable. At my own apartment, I have 2 3-way speakers. This setup is balanced, but more of a mixture of fun and precise. But it can do everything fairly well, and it doesn't lack 'thump' either (ask my neighbours). I also often find myself singing along with the music at home -- even though I'm full well aware that I sound like an idiot.
 
Now, all of these systems are nice in their own way (well... the car system was more ridiculous and silly than nice), but I prefer my 80€ (gone down to 40€, actually!) Sennheisers to all of them. When I put on these cheap closed-headphones I just drift away. I hear every detail (people with 500+€ headphones might stab me for saying this), and I can just really kind of see what the musician was thinking while writing this bit or while singing this bit that way and so on. I put the phones on, lay down and whoop-deh-doo, 5 hours just passed and it's suddenly 3 AM and I was supposed to go to sleep three hours ago. Oh well, might as well spend the entire night with the headphones.. I have seen tons of audio setups, some borderlining crazy as far as price goes (nothing AS crazy as what some people here have spent, though), but none of them have been able to 'swallow' me. Like I hear the music, I can appreciate what the speakers are doing for me, but I don't *love* it. I don't feel it.
 
As for portables, when I put on my cheap Grados, plug them into a portable player and hit the streets, I suddenly find myself smiling at everyone, suddenly not giving two muffins about what time it is or where was I supposed to be or what this angry looking gentleman in a suit is thinking about my hair-do. I just smile and feel like hugging people. The only speaker setup that has been able to make me smile like a crazy person is the one I had in my car, which ironically is the least hi-fi setup out of everything I've ever heard. This is of course a personal preference. To some people fidelity, finesse and precision are the redeeming qualities in audio gear. For me, I can sacrifice all those things for feel, 'soul' and love. Call me a romantic if you must.
 
A motorbike will never be a car. A serious gentleman in a suit will never drive a 1000cc GSX-R to a meeting, or win the respect of other serious gentlemen in suits by popping a wheelie in 200 km/h. But I'll be damned if I ever see a car put a smile on my face like a motorbike can.
 
The best way to go is of course having and enjoying both, but that's not the point.