[Syan25]

I like your reasoning and the way you mention smiling on the street...wish there was more of that going on in the world...

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiiskinen /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I hear every detail (people with 500+€ headphones might stab me for saying this), and I can just really kind of see what the musician was thinking while writing this bit or while singing this bit that way and so on.

Thazzawat I'ma talk'nabout.

 

[jax]

 
Quote:

{big ass snip of interesting post}
 
The best way to go is of course having and enjoying both, but that's not the point.

The best way to go is of course to just enjoy what you have, and not be ruled by your desires for "more" or something different or better.  Not many seem to be able to do that...I know I've fallen way short of that lofty mark.
 
"I do not want what I have not got."  (not sure if it's her quote, but think that was the title of a Sinead O'Connor album.  Great quote).
 

 

[Pricklely Peete]

 
Quote:

I'm fairly new to the entire concept of Hi-Fi, but I think this thread is a bit silly honestly.
 
A motorbike will never be a car. A gaming console will never be a computer. Rap will never be metal, and metal will never be rap. And so on.
 
Back when I was 19 I had a car with two 12" subwoofers in the trunk, and some cheap 3-way speakers in the front. Not exactly a balanced sound or precise audio reproduction, but it was fun as heck to listen to. And perfect for annoying old people. There's a proper studio-monitor set by Genelec at the studio I frequent (well.. haven't been there for a while, but will spend a lot of time there in the near future), which certainly provides everything the car "setup" (if you can even call it a setup) lacked, but isn't really that fun to listen to. My dad has 4 old 3-way speakers by JVC (or World/Universal/Something similar Indrusties, which as I recall became JVC during 80's... but I digress) setup to a vinyl player in a small room with brick floors and wood walls/roof. When I visit my old man I usually like to go to this room, put on something classical or classic rock (Straits, for example) and just kind of sit there in a comfy chair in a bathrobe and enjoy the music. It's not a fun or a precise system, but it's relaxing and enjoyable. At my own apartment, I have 2 3-way speakers. This setup is balanced, but more of a mixture of fun and precise. But it can do everything fairly well, and it doesn't lack 'thump' either (ask my neighbours). I also often find myself singing along with the music at home -- even though I'm full well aware that I sound like an idiot.
 
Now, all of these systems are nice in their own way (well... the car system was more ridiculous and silly than nice), but I prefer my 80€ (gone down to 40€, actually!) Sennheisers to all of them. When I put on these cheap closed-headphones I just drift away. I hear every detail (people with 500+€ headphones might stab me for saying this), and I can just really kind of see what the musician was thinking while writing this bit or while singing this bit that way and so on. I put the phones on, lay down and whoop-deh-doo, 5 hours just passed and it's suddenly 3 AM and I was supposed to go to sleep three hours ago. Oh well, might as well spend the entire night with the headphones.. I have seen tons of audio setups, some borderlining crazy as far as price goes (nothing AS crazy as what some people here have spent, though), but none of them have been able to 'swallow' me. Like I hear the music, I can appreciate what the speakers are doing for me, but I don't *love* it. I don't feel it.
 
As for portables, when I put on my cheap Grados, plug them into a portable player and hit the streets, I suddenly find myself smiling at everyone, suddenly not giving two muffins about what time it is or where was I supposed to be or what this angry looking gentleman in a suit is thinking about my hair-do. I just smile and feel like hugging people. The only speaker setup that has been able to make me smile like a crazy person is the one I had in my car, which ironically is the least hi-fi setup out of everything I've ever heard. This is of course a personal preference. To some people fidelity, finesse and precision are the redeeming qualities in audio gear. For me, I can sacrifice all those things for feel, 'soul' and love. Call me a romantic if you must.
 
A motorbike will never be a car. A serious gentleman in a suit will never drive a 1000cc GSX-R to a meeting, or win the respect of other serious gentlemen in suits by popping a wheelie in 200 km/h. But I'll be damned if I ever see a car put a smile on my face like a motorbike can.
 
The best way to go is of course having and enjoying both, but that's not the point.

I think you managed to miss the point of this thread entirely but I could be wrong about that. The gist of the thread boiled down to it's core IMO is simply this ...a 2 channel system is no substitute for a great headphone system and a great headphone system is no substitute for a terrific 2 channel system...what each brings to the table is wholly unique...the question is, if you had to choose just one system which one would you choose ?
 
Peete.

 

[Kiiskinen]

Quote:

 


I think you managed to miss the point of this thread entirely but I could be wrong about that. The gist of the thread boiled down to it's core IMO is simply this ...a 2 channel system is no substitute for a great headphone system and a great headphone system is no substitute for a terrific 2 channel system...what each brings to the table is wholly unique...the question is, if you had to choose just one system which one would you choose ?
 
Peete.

 
Haha, wouldn't be the first time. It was just my 0.02 on speakers vs. headphones, take it for what it's worth. Cheers.

 

[judy1992]

It seems like pro speaker members always have to bring out how superior speakers are to headphones. Who are they trying to convince? It's flame bait when said in a headphone forum. There are pro's & cons to both. But to say speakers are out right better is ones opinion. Unless a 200.00 HTIB can better the HD800/LCD2..

 

[Currawong]

judy: I posted GoldenEars' comments originally because they were so interesting.  The main thing about his comments for me now is, I don't aim to re-create the feeling of being in a concert hall in my home -- I don't listen that loud. When I do listen with speakers, it's mostly with my family.  I am also considering a near-field rig in the future. I had one before, which was great when I could use it.  The trouble (after I sort out getting a big enough desk) will be deciding what speakers to get. Genalecs or other active monitors are certainly most appealing to me at the moment.

 

[Golden Ears]

Quote:

 


Believe it or not plaster is semi porous, the lattice behind the plaster allows it to diffuse into the supporting structure what is absorbed/reflected/damped by the plaster and it allows the wall some minimal flex which contributes to the dampening effect...the walls coated in this stuff actually act like a reflector/diffuser/dampener of sorts rather than the purely reflective qualities of modern sheet rock. The uneven coat of plaster cuts back on sympathetic resonance excitation. In my old listening room I've had resonance in the sheet rock that caused nails to back their way out over time. It's a good idea to add a lot of sheet rock screws to your room if you can...certainly many more than would be used normally. It's annoying to try and correct a resonance after the wall has been finished, when in doubt use a million or a lot of good quality screws I say. Even concrete with it's semi porous surface can dampen to a small degree better than paper faced gypsum sheet rock...the ideal solution is to properly treat the room (bass traps, diffusers, dampening panels are a must) no matter what it's construction comprises of. Too many audiophiles end up going through a pile of gear trying to get the sound quality just right when they should be concentrating finite $$$$ on getting the room right first with the gear they already have. Get off the gear treadmill and view the room as an equal part of the system equation as important as speaker selection. Another issue I have seen time and again is getting too much speaker for the size of the room and vice versa. In another post you touched on room loading....that in conjunction with acoustic treatment prepares one or arms one with choices appropriate for their room sizes and expectation of outcome. Once you take the gear choice error out of the mix the prospect of putting together a system that kicks butt is far easier to accomplish.
 
You are correct about the books/Lp's being a an effective quasi dampener/diffuser but they act in such a narrow freq band it's tough to get the proper result and have the room look decent (livable). Spending a couple hundred dollars on proper acoustic panels can make for a much more satisfying result. Heavy rugs or carpet are darn good reflection absorbers overuse of such can be counterproductive however. A lot of folks tend to go overboard with these things and completely kill the rooms qualities...the ideal mix is a dead end live end symmetric treatment...have the end where the system is located dead acoustically including handling first reflection points of your main speakers and the opposite end of your room "live" with just a corner traps at the ceiling junctions (triangle traps) and a big old diffuser panel directly behind the listening position on the back wall. This method retains a sense of excitement while giving the listening position a really decent HQ experience. Roughly speaking money wise to do this is around 2K USD. Not that much when you consider gear can easily be 20X that (for serious setups). Even a modest system can gain major fidelity leaps by treating the room in this manner.
 
It's funny after reading your comments about the Infinity woofers handling a small part of the Freq spectrum a knowing smile came over me since I have done nearly the same thing with my Eminent Tech speakers...the subs take over at 60hz while the ET woofers handle 60-180hz with the planar panels handling the rest from 180 to 40 khz. Additional Maggie panels handle 120 HZ and up. It's amazing to find that Maggie and the ET panels mesh very very well together (same voicing practically which give a fairly believable wave launch with all of the additional sq in of usable planar paneling in use) Needless to say the amp power required to get there is somewhat ridiculous (currently bi amping the panels, 6 mono channels of 150W to 300W each, total 650 W RMS in addition to 2 x 504 W sealed subs, serious horsepower which I would like to double with all new amps in the future) . The ET's crave Watts while the Maggies crave current delivery...an oddball arrangement that seems to work well using the proper amps for the respective speaker needs. I'm sure the ET's require a bit of current as well although Bruce Thigpen (ET's mastermind) suggests high power amps ahead of lower power high current delivery. The ideal amps for my requirements IMO would be able to deliver both in large quantities.
 
Room correction is applied to the sub tower and some acoustic treatment helps with the acoustic issues to a fair degree. I really need to get another room to fully realize the potential of my system...I need a good size rectangular room...my current room is rather oddly shaped and not symmetric ...it has 5 of the 6 surfaces solid concrete however with insulation dampening on the top half of the concrete. Cuts down on the reflections by a huge margin but does nothing for diffusion at the live end. It's not perfect but I make the best of it.
 
Peete.

Bookcases- they are great for breaking up standing waves.. If you need more dampening- you can toss a carpet over them... or .. as I like to do- have them taller than the actual album and buy a futon and rip out the batting- staple this to the rear of the bookcase and upholster over it- also do this to the inside of the bookcase for holding your albums as well as doing the underside of each shelf.
 
Carpeting.. IMHO thicker is better.  And generously upholstered furniture never hurt either...also +1 on an absorber behind your head or you get awful early reflections..
 
Headphones... really do not hold a candle to excellent speakers.. but frankly most of todays speakers... are not as good as many of the older designs. Quad ESL 63's had amazing midrange and they were from the 1980's and most speakers made today would have trouble competing.
 
It's easy as a audio salesman to sell someone a new set of speakers when the new set is obviously better in all respects. Todays speakers are often not better in all respects than the great older designs. I see it cars as well... more horsepower... but many tiring to drive at high speeds for hours at a time, louder, but really not better. I have a 1994 E500 (only 374 imported to the USA) and todays Mercedes while some have more horsepower and gadgets, simply do not drive better. They are louder, tiring to drive, and when traction breaks free....watch out.
 
The just don't meet the Gestalt of the car... they are more like fancy red wagons with lots of extras.
 
I can drive my E500 over 120mph for hours on end, without fatigue....uh except for a little nervousness now and then when my Escort Detector goes off. My Girlfriend's 911S however.... we wouldn't even think about taking it on a 2 hour drive...even at the speed limit.
 

 

[moonboy403]

Bookcases are NOT great for breaking up standing waves. In order to diffuse effectively into the lowest frequencies, you need enough depth in your diffusors (books in this case). Moreover, stacking a bunch of books would be way too uniform not to mention that you simply have no way of knowing WHERE these waves would be deflected to. Moreover, the use of diffusion mostly depends on the size of your room. 
 
Carpets absorb mostly high frequencies and does absolutely nothing for low frequencies. Putting a lot of carpet around the room will only make the room sound dead.
 
The key is to use bass traps in the corners and back wall as well as covering the first and second reflection point on the side walls and ceiling. Then finally, bass traps behind the speakers on the front wall.

 

[melomaniac]

interesting (tho unfair) comparo between a large "comfy" older merc and a "nervous" porsche. however, this tempts us to speculate about what this analogy says about speakers and headphones. is it possible that the porsche more accurately renders the road and driving experience, and that the 94MB insulates you from the bends and potholes and so forth more? in that case, some might argue that the 911 is a driver's car and the MB is not getting the road. you see the temptation to compare this to audiophile rhetoric... yes, they both go fast in style; yes, they both do the job (transportation). but they take radically different approaches to doing so. in which case the dividing line isn't fatigue as much as whether or not it's about how you get there, and how much information you receive about the getting there. serious listening can be exhausting.
 
just trying to take your analogy to the logical conclusion.
 
Quote:

I can drive my E500 over 120mph for hours on end, without fatigue....uh except for a little nervousness now and then when my Escort Detector goes off. My Girlfriend's 911S however.... we wouldn't even think about taking it on a 2 hour drive...even at the speed limit.

 

 

[Golden Ears]

...

 

[Golden Ears]

Quote:

Bookcases are NOT great for breaking up standing waves. In order to diffuse effectively into the lowest frequencies, you need enough depth in your diffusors (books in this case). Moreover, stacking a bunch of books would be way too uniform not to mention that you simply have no way of knowing WHERE these waves would be deflected to. Moreover, the use of diffusion mostly depends on the size of your room. 
 
Carpets absorb mostly high frequencies and does absolutely nothing for low frequencies. Putting a lot of carpet around the room will only make the room sound dead.
 
The key is to use bass traps in the corners and back wall as well as covering the first and second reflection point on the side walls and ceiling. Then finally, bass traps behind the speakers on the front wall.

 
I can either assume you don't have a girlfriend or you are a current porn star as few women would ever stand for bass traps and so forth. It is far easier to talk them into buying a $4200 carpet than to use $400 of sound proofing. if you have standing waves, your room dimensions are just plain poor. Again, I find it easier to MOVE to a new Condo or House than to convince a woman to have bass traps or diffusers. They can't however argue over books. My favorite trick is to say I "NEED A LIBRARY" and then to put my system in there. As for books being uniform...they don't ave to be. Small paperbacks and large size books are not the same. Also if you angle the book cases a bit away from the wall at one end... you really help to break up room nodes. In some cases I have had the bookcases 2-3 feet off the walls and put Tall  plants behind them with lights. (works as sort of a bass trap). Nothing absorbs errant bass standing waves like MASS. Book cases are heavy when full.  

 

I agree  professionally treated room with real furnishings (preferably not modern furnishings with straight corners- more curved furniture is better.) sounds best...  What I have wanted to do is this..

 

Create my ideal room with plaster and lathe with all the bass traps and so forth. Upholster the walls to create a "false wall" of acoustically transparent cloth. Place the speakers behind this (but with the option to raise or retract this fake wall. Have all the bass traps and treatments hidden behind these cloth walls.  Hell I'd even think of putting in some acoustically transparent artwork- just to prevent the woman from putting crap in the speakers pathway to my ears.

 

But the reality of it all..having worked for high end audio stores, and building rooms from scratch (I worked for bang and Olufsen and we did tons of "pre-wires" into homes- ground up rooms etc.. and not all B & O typically just that for Video and better stuff for audio.  Well - these "Audio rooms" became equipment graveyards.  They just are not fun to LIVE IN. Yes you can go listen for an album side- but you aren't going to spend a weekend in there. People are creatures of habit- after spending 103 out of 105 waking hours per week OUTSIDE of the audio room.... you will eventually spend 105 waking hours per week out of it.

 

 

 

 

[Golden Ears]

Prickly Pete- Quote
 
"I think you managed to miss the point of this thread entirely but I could be wrong about that. The gist of the thread boiled down to it's core IMO is simply this ...a 2 channel system is no substitute for a great headphone system and a great headphone system is no substitute for a terrific 2 channel system...what each brings to the table is wholly unique...the question is, if you had to choose just one system which one would you choose ?"
 
 
Actually I think the point is that Headphones... no matter how much you spend on them will not be as involving as speakers.. unless you spend very little.
 
Sure at a $150 price point headphones blow away $150 speakers or a $150 sound system.
 
But at $1500.... well selected sound systems are competitive with headphones.
 
Spend $2000 on your headphone rig...and well...... you may as well have spent $1500 on a speaker rig and $500 for headphones for use when you can't listen to your speakers.
 
 
Times have changed though... In the 1980's people were more tolerant of their neighbors playing loud music. But now with portable audio, and with car audio, people are going for the "Loud Listen" when mobile.
 
My parents died when I was a teen- and I had to go away to school. The Older dorms were made of Plaster and lathe and were generally overbuilt. The "NEW DORMS" were also called the "Paper Dorms" because the walls were so thin. Upperclassmen were always excited to move into the older dorms because the sound insulation was so much better- you wouldn't hear someone snoring in the next room, or people walking above you.
 
Today... most construction is cheap plasterboard. The Joists are small. The Cross beams are small.. and livingrooms have less usable wall space and are nearly adjoined to kitchens.  In some ways the living space is smaller since the kitchen is considered living space... HA!  
 
Also rooms are not as isolated in todays modern floor plans as they once were with longer hallways with curves and so forth. Everything has been maximized for "square footage bang for your buck", with little regard to how sound carries in a house. In the old days..few people shouted throughout a large house...because it didn't do much good- some homes had intercoms. in todays floor plans people can shout na be heard....AND SHOUT they do! Kids are so loud today. Mothers scream to their kids at the other side of the house. In older layouts- sound would not carry from one wing to another. As a result... people did not shout because it was nearly useless.  You could have a party in one one of the house and not be heard in the other.
 
I lived in a condo in Back Bay in Boston.  1200 sq ft one bedroom. The bedroom had a long hallway that curved and made a right handed turn. I could have the speakers blasting in the living room and the sound would barely reach the bedroom.
 
In New York- there was a nightclub.. in church... I went there opening night.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Limelight
 
What was amazing was that it was blasting at 115+ db on the dancefloor- but walk through several open archways about 25- 30 feet into a back room...and you could whisper and be heard. no doors were closed. You could see everyone dancing... but heard almost nothing..and no bass carried either.
 
But young architects today seem to not know anything of acoustics... perhaps because they grew up on headphones instead of speakers.

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

 
I can either assume you don't have a girlfriend or you are a current porn star as few women would ever stand for bass traps and so forth. It is far easier to talk them into buying a $4200 carpet than to use $400 of sound proofing. if you have standing waves, your room dimensions are just plain poor. Again, I find it easier to MOVE to a new Condo or House than to convince a woman to have bass traps or diffusers. They can't however argue over books. My favorite trick is to say I "NEED A LIBRARY" and then to put my system in there. As for books being uniform...they don't ave to be. Small paperbacks and large size books are not the same. Also if you angle the book cases a bit away from the wall at one end... you really help to break up room nodes. In some cases I have had the bookcases 2-3 feet off the walls and put Tall  plants behind them with lights. (works as sort of a bass trap). Nothing absorbs errant bass standing waves like MASS. Book cases are heavy when full.  

 

Standing waves, exist in rooms of ANY dimension, simple as that. 
 
As I said earlier, carpet mostly absorbs high frequencies and does almost nothing for other frequencies which is what you should be worried about as high freqeuncies are the least of your problem. 
 
As for book cases, all I can say is that measure what you did and you'll see how well (or not) these book cases act as a bass trap or diffusor in terms of frequency response and on a waterfall graph. The reason why these book cases are "breaking room nodes" is that you're essentially changing the room dimension and hence shifting room nodes from one frequency to another.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

I can either assume you don't have a girlfriend or you are a current porn star as few women would ever stand for bass traps and so forth. 

LOL!
 
Thank God for overbuilt apartment buildings here.  I do need to figure out reducing the boom from my speakers, but that's not going to happen until I move somewhere and start from scratch I think.