headphone out on speaker amp question
Mar 25, 2009 at 4:10 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 10

compuryan

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I have seen dozens of receivers and integrated amps which have headphone out jacks. Is there a way I could put a headphone out jack on the β24 so I could use it as a speaker amp and as a headphone amp? The β24 has a gain of 20, so maybe is there some way to limit that for headphone use? Maybe I could internally mount a potentiometer, or perhaps there is another way. Give me ideas! I really want to build this amp no matter what, but I'd love to be able to somehow use this for headphones too...

For those who are going to tell me this is strictly a speaker amp, please try not to rain on my parade too hard
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Mar 25, 2009 at 4:35 AM Post #3 of 10
My beta 22 only has one sigma 22, and you need at least two to drive speakers. Also, off-board heatsinks would probably be required. And even after that additional money going into my beta 22, it would only be able to drive smallish, efficient speakers. I definitely thought of beefing up my beta 22, but it would cost so much it seems that starting over with the beta 24 would just make sense. It'd be tons more power for just a little bit more $ (well, relatively haha) than a speaker capable beta 22.
 
Mar 25, 2009 at 4:40 AM Post #4 of 10
most recievers/etc use a resistor network for connecting the hp's to the amplifier, I don't know any direct specifics though (i.e: what the exact circuit is going to look like for your implementation)

and given that most of these recievers/IAs/amps don't "switch" between hp out and speaker out (you can usually run both at once), I would suspect its wired in parallel or series to the "speaker taps", just a bit of extra circuitry to bring the power output down to a realistic level/afford control (like volume adjustment not being wonky)

basically its my understanding that you're building a less-energized energizer for the hp out (while an electrostatic energizer is stepping from tens of volts up to hundreds or thousands of volts, and also dealing with the bias voltage and impedance matching, the "energizer" for normal electrodynamics is only handling the impedance matching and voltage regulation (but I don't know if you'll need to step-up or step-down, I would assume up though))
 
Mar 25, 2009 at 6:44 AM Post #5 of 10
Most receivers don't have balanced/differential outputs, so a pair of series resistors or a resistor voltage divider network will be enough to attenuate the voltage down to headphone levels. That said, this scheme of inserting resistance between the amp and the headphones is not ideal. It will cause frequency response aberrations because headphone impedance is not linear wrt. frequency.

The β24 has fully differential output (no common ground), so you cannot do the resistor trick unless your headphone is modified to be fully-balanced with a 4-wire connector.

Finally, β24 is not a good candidate as a headphone amp because it has no volume control (its low-ish 5K ohm input impedace makes it unsuitable for a volume pot there). You need a companion preamp (or a source with volume control). The best place to implement headphone support is thus not at the β24's output, but at the preamp or source, with its own headphone amp. The ultimate combination would be to use a β22 as a headphone amp, and as a preamp to drive the β24 for speakers.
 
Mar 25, 2009 at 6:49 AM Post #6 of 10
Quote:

Originally Posted by amb /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Most receivers don't have balanced/differential outputs, so a pair of series resistors or a resistor voltage divider network will be enough to attenuate the voltage down to headphone levels. That said, this scheme of inserting resistance between the amp and the headphones is not ideal. It will cause frequency response aberrations because headphone impedance is not linear wrt. frequency.


thanks for the info, so out of curosity, you're saying hp's are stepped-down voltage wise? I feel like I've missed something then, I thought they were stepped UP voltage wise, and down CURRENT-wise? (just like 'stats, but without bias'ing volts and so-on)

and what about hp's that measure "linear" or "nearly linear" wrt. freq?
=263&graphID[]=293]http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCom...phID[]=293

either the measurement isn't accurate enough (i.e: there are changes, but the scale they take place on is far too narrow to represent on that graph), or I'm missing something else here?
 
Mar 25, 2009 at 7:22 AM Post #7 of 10
Most headphones require far less voltage and current than speakers to achieve loud listening levels. High impedance headphones typically need a bit more voltage than low impedance headphones but less current, but neither need anywhere the same voltage levels as speakers. Of course, what a speaker needs also depends on its efficiency and other factors.

Just to put things in perspective. The Beyer DT990 250 ohm and most Grado models are rated around 96-98dB SPL per milliwatt. 1mW into 250 ohms (Beyer) is about 0.5Vrms. 1mW into 32 ohms (Grado) is about 0.18Vrms. Contrast this with a typical bookshelf speaker, with about 88dB/W/m efficiency rating. This means that to achieve 98dB at 1m distance, you need 10x more power (dB = 10 * log(P1/P2)), so 10 * log(10) = 10dB. So 10W into 8 ohms is needed, and that is ~9Vrms. You can see in this ad hoc example, the speaker needs 18x the voltage swing to achieve the same SPL as the Beyer, or 50x the voltage swing of the Grado. In reality, you sit farther away than 1m from the speakers so you need even more power than the calculation.

As for current, you can also calculate this. We determined that at ~98dB there is 0.5Vrms on the Beyer, so I = 0.5V/250 = 2mA. On the Grado it's 0.18V / 32 = ~6mA. But on the speaker? 9V / 8 = 1.13A! We're talking several orders of magnitude more here.

As for adding resistance to reduce speaker level output to headphone levels, you need to attenuate by at least 20x if not more. This means some fairly high value series resistors (several hundred ohms typical). Even if the headphone load impedance varies by a few ohms it will introduce a non-trivial amount of frequency response change. Many headphones have rather non-linear impedance curves while others are reasonably flat, so the response change is headphone-dependent. It doesn't change the fact that this is simply not a good way to drive headphones.
 
Mar 25, 2009 at 7:33 AM Post #8 of 10
Quote:

Originally Posted by amb /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Most headphones require far less voltage and current than speakers to achieve loud listening levels. High impedance headphones typically need a bit more voltage than low impedance headphones but less current, but neither need anywhere the same voltage levels as speakers. Of course, what a speaker needs also depends on its efficiency and other factors.

Just to put things in perspective. The Beyer DT990 250 ohm and most Grado models are rated around 96-98dB SPL per milliwatt. 1mW into 250 ohms (Beyer) is about 0.5Vrms. 1mW into 32 ohms (Grado) is about 0.18Vrms. Contrast this with a typical bookshelf speaker, with about 88dB/W/m efficiency rating. This means that to achieve 98dB at 1m distance, you need 10x more power (dB = 10 * log(P1/P2)), so 10 * log(10) = 10dB. So 10W into 8 ohms is needed, and that is ~9Vrms. You can see in this ad hoc example, the speaker needs 18x the voltage swing to achieve the same SPL as the Beyer, or 50x the voltage swing of the Grado. In reality, you sit farther away than 1m from the speakers so you need even more power than the calculation.

As for current, you can also calculate this. We determined that at ~98dB there is 0.5Vrms on the Beyer, so I = 0.5V/250 = 2mA. On the Grado it's 0.18V / 32 = ~6mA. But on the speaker? 9V / 8 = 1.13A! We're talking several orders of magnitude more here.

As for adding resistance to reduce speaker level output to headphone levels, you need to attenuate by at least 20x if not more. This means some fairly high value series resistors (several hundred ohms typical). Even if the headphone load impedance varies by a few ohms it will introduce a non-trivial amount of frequency response change. Many headphones have rather non-linear impedance curves while others are reasonably flat, so the response change is headphone-dependent. It doesn't change the fact that this is simply not a good way to drive headphones.



that is so informative, thank you, really
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Mar 25, 2009 at 2:47 PM Post #10 of 10
wow! Thank you all for the very informative answers. The beta22(preamp/headamp) feeding the beta24 would be an awesome combo. But I'm not so sure how I will fund it... I can see the thread forming already "starving student beta 24". Honestly, I'll probably just keep my b22 and hold off on a speaker amp for now.

Thanks again!
 

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