Head-fi and BOSE

[mirumu]

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Originally Posted by John_M /img/forum/go_quote.gif My point was that head-fi members complain about BOSE being overpriced but praise the $9,000 odd HE90 to the skies. You've replied saying that "Quite a few seem to consider the HE90 worth their price. Where then are the people that think BOSE are worth the price." Like Phil, you've missed the point... I assume you are talking about head-fi here as plenty of non head-fi members believe BOSE are worth the price. We know already that head-fi'ers think BOSE=ripoff and HE90=worth every penny. That's what I said in my post and you're just repeating me. My point was that the attitude reeks of double standards.

Knowing whether or not something is worth it's price requires many points of reference, something the typical HE90 buyer will have. You don't spend $9000 on a headphone without having a good idea of what you're getting. The person on the street who buys BOSE because of advertising or brand image does not have those points of reference so is incapable of forming an accurate opinion on whether they are worth the price or not. Those who do have those reference points and buy BOSE anyway in favor of other brands are the ones I'm asking about. I have no doubt they exist but I've never seen one myself. I don't believe there's any double standard here at all, comparing BOSE's mass market offerings with Sennheiser's statement product is facetious at best.

 

[rodbac]

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And if it's all subjective, and 95% of the folks on this forum have listened to Bose and think subjectively they are way overpriced, why is that not a legitimate subjective judgment?

PhilS is correct- if you trust those giving the impressions, purely subject judgments (is this pair of phones a "good" one?) are one of the few things for which the weight of subjective assessments can be given consideration.

This doesn't mean anyone can say "you're wrong" if individually you say you think a blown Audiovox speaker sounds better than a functional B&W, but it does mean it's safe to say "speaker X isn't a very good one" if 99% of people with experience judge it so.

 

[John_M]

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Originally Posted by user18 /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's like comparing the difference between a Honda, Toyota, GM versus say a Lamborghini. Not to many people have driven a Lamborghini. And for its supporters, price is not a primary concern. If you have Joe Blow deciding between a Honda, Toyota, or a GM, you'll get a better range of responses because those cars are more common and people are more likely to have tried two or all three of them.

I don't think it's like Lamborghini v Toyota at all. There are a lot of significant differences between Lamborghinis and Toyotas. For example, top speed, acceleration, looks. And I don't think (I may be wrong) that any Lamborghini costs 20 times the top of the range Toyota. Comparing the HD650s to the HE90s, you are looking at far more subtle differences. Not necessarily improvements, either, in the same way that a Lamborghini's performance stats are better than a Toyota's - it's far more subjective. As for the point about people who can afford the HE90s: the fact that some people can afford to get ripped off doesn't mean they aren't getting ripped off.

Love the way the HE90s look, though. I think they should copy that look for the HD700s. And upgrading your headphones to HE90s will at least make a difference to SQ. IMO the benefits of "upgrading" your amp or cables are rather less clear.

 

[user18]

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Originally Posted by John_M /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think it's like Lamborghini v Toyota at all. There are a lot of significant differences between Lamborghinis and Toyotas. For example, top speed, acceleration, looks. And I don't think (I may be wrong) that any Lamborghini costs 20 times the top of the range Toyota. Comparing the HD650s to the HE90s, you are looking at far more subtle differences. Not necessarily improvements, either, in the same way that a Lamborghini's performance stats are better than a Toyota's - it's far more subjective. As for the point about people who can afford the HE90s: the fact that some people can afford to get ripped off doesn't mean they aren't getting ripped off. Love the way the HE90s look, though. I think they should copy that look for the HD700s. And upgrading your headphones to HE90s will at least make a difference to SQ. IMO the benefits of "upgrading" your amp or cables are rather less clear.

That wasn't the logic I was trying to make. You're taking the comparison too literally. Look at it this way. I would assume people who go out to buy a $9,000 headphone are looking for the best sound quality. You think they are getting ripped off, but they don't. If there was a headphone that sounded better than the HE90 that sold for $4,500, then most people would agree that they are getting ripped off. But can you name a headphone that sounds better than the HE90 at a cheaper price?

Sound quality is subjective. If someone prefers BOSE QC2 over a HD650 that were the same price, then that's their choice. For a lot of people here though, it's HD650 hands down. I bash BOSE because they over-promise and under-deliver. They are more marketing company than audio company.

 

[Eagle_Driver]

The biggest problem I found with BOSE headphones is that they cost three to four times more than they are worth (when considering sonics alone). For example, one of their models costs $180 - but sounds worse than some $50 headphones from other brands.

The HE90, on the other hand, despite being one of the best headphones that I've heard, isn't really worth half of its $14,000 most recent retail price tag. Then again, I have run into the law of diminishing returns here, since at that price point one would have to spend an extra astronomical price difference just to even notice much if any improvement in sound quality...

 

[Jahn]

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Originally Posted by user18 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sound quality is subjective. If someone prefers BOSE QC2 over a HD650 that were the same price, then that's their choice. For a lot of people here though, it's HD650 hands down. I bash BOSE because they over-promise and under-deliver. They are more marketing company than audio company.

If you go to the Apple Store with loud ambients and compare a QC2 to a HD650 yoked to an unamped Nano (like the one in NYC), some folks may indeed come to that conclusion (and then try to "liberate" the poor Senn from its fate, like Mercuttio tried! Go, replacement cables!).

But I don't think it's a double standard to say that Bose is overpriced, then turn around and pay even more cash for another can. To be a double standard, the cans have to be the same price and basically have about the same level of SQ, and then knock one for marketing hype and buy into someone else's marketing instead. Could you point out a can that has that kind of background? Other than, say, a Bose?

The HD650 is just a pricier can, but still really does need an amp to make it shine as well. Honestly, a Koss clip will operate better than an underjuiced HD Senn. But bring the Senn up to speed, and it's worth the cash, and will sound far far better than a Koss clip.

You could spend a ton more on a Bose Triport, but it ain't ever gonna sound worth the price ya paid for it.

 

[TheMarchingMule]

KSC75 whoops their butt in terms of performance-to-price ratio.

 

[John_M]

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Originally Posted by user18 /img/forum/go_quote.gif That wasn't the logic I was trying to make. You're taking the comparison too literally. Look at it this way. I would assume people who go out to buy a $9,000 headphone are looking for the best sound quality. You think they are getting ripped off, but they don't.

Well, I imagine that BOSE consumers don't think they are getting ripped off either, or they wouldn't be BOSE consumers. But my point isn't that BOSE offer great value. It's that a lot of "audiophile" products offer absolutely terrible value but escape criticism. I didn't actually have headphones in mind when I wrote the OP (although I would certainly accept that a lot of headphones offer bad value for money).

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If there was a headphone that sounded better than the HE90 that sold for $4,500, then most people would agree that they are getting ripped off. But can you name a headphone that sounds better than the HE90 at a cheaper price?

I haven't heard the HE90s so I can't judge that. Have you? I will make a few points, though. First, I suspect that with all that polished wood and shiny metal, and the giant price tag, the placebo effect alone will be enough to make just about anyone listening to the HE90s have an orgasm listening to them. But let's assume for the sake of argument that the HE90s are the best headphone going, and that your billionaire consumer therefore isn't getting a bad deal when he buys them. What about all the other headphones floating around the $1-2,000 mark (which get a lot of praise on here)? What sort of value do they represent? Very dubious, if any, improvement over (say) the HD650s, but several times the price. And you can't make the billionaire-consumer-who-doesn't-care argument because he's bought some HE90s.

Anyway, as I said, it wasn't headphones I had in mind when I wrote the OP.

 

[user18]

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Originally Posted by John_M /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, I imagine that BOSE consumers don't think they are getting ripped off either, or they wouldn't be BOSE consumers.

I would agree with you there, but you also asked why HF'ers bash BOSE, so I gave my reason why.

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Originally Posted by John_M /img/forum/go_quote.gif But my point isn't that BOSE offer great value. It's that a lot of "audiophile" products offer absolutely terrible value but escape criticism.

Since this is a headphone forum, it's not invalid to compare BOSE's headphone products. I disagree with your statement that other products escape criticism. Take Grados. They receive a lot of praise from people. But they are also criticized for being harsh, shoddily constructed, etc. They have their fans as well as detractors. BOSE receives a higher ratio of criticisms, but they aren't being singled out while other companies are being ignored.

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Originally Posted by John_M /img/forum/go_quote.gif I haven't heard the HE90s so I can't judge that. Have you?

No, but I'd like to. Anybody wanna loan a pair?

 

[Pm@c]

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Originally Posted by pinkfloyd4ever /img/forum/go_quote.gif Show me a real computer geek that uses a commercially built computer rather than one he built himself.

Haha that would be me. This thread is a perfect example of those who compare, lets say, a Dell to a Custom Built PC. The Dell will always lose. I have a friend who says that pre built computers are better because you dont have to do any work. Yet these computers suck so much and you end up paying more. I agree with most of the people on these boards, while I havent heard most of these headphones, I can expect them to be 10x better than the headphones that are advertised as the best ones (Bose for example). It probably carries over from my computer theory. Now ive seen headphones like Bose or Sony in Futureshop for 200+. I paid 195 (Canadian that is) for a pair of DT770/80's, which I am eagerly awaiting. I am 100% sure these headphones will wow me for a long time and give me a much better listening experience than I could ever have expected.

 

[rodbac]

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KSC75 whoops their butt in terms of performance-to-price ratio.

The Koss 75s and their ilk (KSC35s/PortaPros/et al) whoop *most* headphones in price/performance ratio.

 

[platinum]

well, in my experience with Bose, they do not sounds good to me.
but Bang & oulfsen really does the job.
again, very aggresive price strategy.

 

[jarnauga]

Very delicate discussion here. I don't have enough knowledge of headphones to proclaim something useful to this thread. But marketing nowadays it's more important than friends. Years ago we believed in friends the most and test new stuff thanks to visit them and taste their new toys. I'm agree that there are more options these days but knowledge is an active work. To take information using advertisement, to go to the shop, to ask some question, to hear our music take too much time and most people don't have or don't want to take this time. This is how marketing works and placebo appears. To peace our mind with feelings that replace our effort, our discover that cost part of our lives with the sense that we are acting quite right and nobody will accused you of being a laziness existence.

Oh, my English skills are poor enough to make me a foolish with this post. Maybe I can't explain well.

 

[Uncle Erik]

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Originally Posted by jarnauga /img/forum/go_quote.gif Very delicate discussion here. I don't have enough knowledge of headphones to proclaim something useful to this thread. But marketing nowadays it's more important than friends. Years ago we believed in friends the most and test new stuff thanks to visit them and taste their new toys. I'm agree that there are more options these days but knowledge is an active work. To take information using advertisement, to go to the shop, to ask some question, to hear our music take too much time and most people don't have or don't want to take this time. This is how marketing works and placebo appears. To peace our mind with feelings that replace our effort, our discover that cost part of our lives with the sense that we are acting quite right and nobody will accused you of being a laziness existence. Oh, my English skills are poor enough to make me a foolish with this post. Maybe I can't explain well.

Actually, this is why this board exists. Going to a free discussion of the products in the forums is the best way around the marketing. A few people here get sweetheart deals and other promo items from manufacturers, but if you follow the consensus, you'll generally get the truth.

 

[euclid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_M /img/forum/go_quote.gif My point was that head-fi members complain about BOSE being overpriced but praise the $9,000 odd HE90 to the skies. You've replied saying that "Quite a few seem to consider the HE90 worth their price. Where then are the people that think BOSE are worth the price." Like Phil, you've missed the point... I assume you are talking about head-fi here as plenty of non head-fi members believe BOSE are worth the price. We know already that head-fi'ers think BOSE=ripoff and HE90=worth every penny. That's what I said in my post and you're just repeating me. My point was that the attitude reeks of double standards.

you are totally missing the point yourself and your trying to undermine the entire reason most of us frequent these forums. the HE-90 get praised because they have superior sound quality. PERIOD. your idea of a poor price/performace ratio may not scale with someone that makes 100x more money than you but like it or not you will not get the same sound quality of an $X,000 setup without spending in the neighborhood of $X,000.

just about everyone here has at least one pair of headphones that cost as much as the Tri-Ports, ITS NOT THE PRICE they will never be good price/performace because undeniably better headphones in sound and build are available at half the price.

Bose purposely gets picked on b/c they talk alot of marketing **** about being the best and dont back up any of it in actual performance, and sadly so do most Bose owners. FWIW i would rather have 1000 ignorant people on the street overlook the headphones i use and have one informed person spot them, than have that 1000 people think im rich or cool for wearing overrated garbage and have that one dork in the know scoff at me, i think alot of people here feel that way b/c all the while our music sounds better.