[Canman]

I think its humorous to see claims of perfection. On the other hand, certain colorations may not detract from the experience, depending on your relative view. For example, a listener that is used to the SR-007 might find the K1000 bright. Or, a listener used to the K1000 might find the SR-007 on the dull side. Both of these are great headphones that tend to generate different opinions depending on your experience. I have not heard the HD800 but hope this provides a little insight.

 

[eaglejo]

No offense taken. I'm not an HD800 acolyte. I like the headphone and it's very revealing without being clinical. Maybe I should clarify my original statement. With an inferior cable, I hear the problem. That is, what was originally recorded isn't properly reproduced in my system. When I swapped out cables, it goes away and what is reproduced is that which is recorded.

 

[oqvist]

Skylab have you heard the K701? Different headphone yadayada I know I am. But the upper treble issue seems to be about the same so the frequency response charts is perhaps right. Now I know you hardly notice the treble roll off on the DX 1000 so I maybe it´s not that extreme as for the K701?

 

[k3oxkjo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif A good post, but I do not think that this negates the issue. I am also using other headphones for the comparison, and the Nautilus tweeter is not what anyone would describe as rolled off in actual in-room use. The Nautilus tweeter is tricky to measure because of it's extraordinary off-axis uniformity - a truly flat on-axis anechoic response would make the thing unbearably bright in-room, since it is not rolled off to the sides the way a box speaker like the Harbeth will be - just a result of the design. It's still a very useful reference point, IMO. But there are no absolutes in this case. It's a PHENOMENAL headphone. It's just not perfect, IMO. I am not the only person who hears this issue - far from it. I've received some interesting PM's on the topic, which of course I will not share, but I'd say there's a pretty healthy faction of people who hear the same thing I do in the HD800.

I agree with this. In fact the issue of what is "right" or "neutral" as far as treble balance is really, really dicey to me. Usually, you can arbitrate these issues by saying "well, what does it sound like in the concert hall"? But in the case of treble, where you sit in the hall makes a big difference, so there is really a range of balances that could be called "neutral" compared to the concert experience.

Given row A to Z, I would judge my Sony 7506 as row A (talking treble balance only here). I would put the HD-800 (so far) in row H, the older Senns in row T, Beyer DT-48 in row P, etc. For me, it's really hard to censure overall any phone that has a balance that can be heard in the concert hall experience, it comes down to where YOU would prefer to sit given the choice.

I prefer to sit from A to S, going by this standard, so the HD-800 "splits the difference" fairly well to me. But many folks don't like to sit in the front half of the hall, for them the treble of the HD-800 may certainly come off as hot.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by k3oxkjo /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree with this. In fact the issue of what is "right" or "neutral" as far as treble balance is really, really dicey to me. Usually, you can arbitrate these issues by saying "well, what does it sound like in the concert hall"? But in the case of treble, where you sit in the hall makes a big difference, so there is really a range of balances that could be called "neutral" compared to the concert experience. Given row A to Z, I would judge my Sony 7506 as row A (talking treble balance only here). I would put the HD-800 (so far) in row H, the older Senns in row T, Beyer DT-48 in row P, etc. For me, it's really hard to censure overall any phone that has a balance that can be heard in the concert hall experience, it comes down to where YOU would prefer to sit given the choice. I prefer to sit from A to S, going by this standard, so the HD-800 "splits the difference" fairly well to me. But many folks don't like to sit in the front half of the hall, for them the treble of the HD-800 may certainly come off as hot.

Excellent post. None of what I am hearing will mean that there won't be LOTS of people who will LOVE what the HD800 does in the treble. Heck, there are some headphones that are KNOWN to be terrifically bright (the AT W5000 come to mind), and yet they have a lot of fans. Given that what we are discussing is such a small thing, relatively, there will be some people who won't be at all bothered by it, and some who will indeed LIKE it.

But from what I can tell, it's there, and it should be known.

 

[blessingx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have only listened to them so far on 4 different amps - 2 are OTL tube amps, which *may* have an issue with the HD800's due to inductance, so I have stopped using them (although the HD800's lack of ability to play nicely with OTL tube amps will almost certainly preclude my ultimately buying a pair, sadly).

This is interesting and possibly another sign we all hear differently, because two members have privately told me from trends in their pairing, the OTL design may be especially good with the HD800. Or a sign discussing OTLs singularly is a mistake.

 

[Morph201]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eaglejo /img/forum/go_quote.gif No offense taken. I'm not an HD800 acolyte. I like the headphone and it's very revealing without being clinical. Maybe I should clarify my original statement. With an inferior cable, I hear the problem. That is, what was originally recorded isn't properly reproduced in my system. When I swapped out cables, it goes away and what is reproduced is that which is recorded.

Maybe, or perhaps the cable is committing the sin of omission?

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blessingx /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is interesting and possibly another sign we all hear differently, because two members have privately told me from trends in their pairing, the OTL design may be especially good with the HD800. Or a sign discussing OTLs singularly is a mistake.

One can never generalize about tube amps, since you can often get the exact sound you're looking for by tube rolling. For example, if I took the 5998's out of the Extreme, and put in RCA grey-plate 6AS7G's, the sound would be very different, and I probably wouldn't notice any treble elevation in the HD800, since the RCA is a soft-sounding tube.

So the point is that with OTL designs there is a potential issue that should be noted - nothing more than that. But one must ask - given there is an issue that must be contended with, if one owns an expensive OTL tube amp, is spending $1,400 on HD800's the best choice? Or conversely, if one has the HD800's, and is considering an amp, does spending big $$$ on a nice OTL tube amp to be used primarily with the HD800 make the most sense? Probably not. But again, there are no absolutes.

 

[feifan]

No sibilance in the highs.

Re suspected emphasis in treble -- a possible explanation is the unprecedented clarity. On first listen, the highs did grab my attention almost immediately, but after a few minutes, I calmed down and concluded that it was more a case of increased clarity than selective amplification. To my ears, anyway.

I think k3oxkjo has a point: In a concert hall, listener location in the acoustic spectrum makes a difference, and sampling from different points in the grid will probably generate varying results. I'm not sure exactly how this reality transfers to recording and headphone tech, but my guess is that the HD800 designers were somehow able to overcome the limitations of listener location to, literally, create a dynamic multi-layered grid that appears to constantly reform around the listener in response to the demands of the music. This apparent movement of the music in relationship to the listener brings us closer to each source in the different layers, and the result is heightened clarity rather than a blanket emphasis of a given range.

 

[RedBull]

This evening i auditioned hd800 again, listening to, one of them:
- Jack Johnson (On and On) - "Rodeo Clowns"
plenty of cymbal sound here
- Amp used: Heed Canamp

The cymbal sound is a little too pronounced, over emphasized for my liking.

 

[John Willett]

It is getting very interesting reading this thread.

Some comments could be down just as much to the amplifier and cable used, or to even the choice of microphone and mic. placement as it could be in the headphones.

Very interesting.

I am still waiting for my own pair (though I do have a pre-production pair at home this weekend, if the wife gives me a chance to use them).

I will have to have a good listen.

I have a live recording made in the Hannover Music School by a Tonmeister and I was in the audience while it was being recorded - as well as some of my own recordings - so I will have to have a good listen.

 

[blessingx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif One can never generalize about tube amps, since you can often get the exact sound you're looking for by tube rolling... So the point is that with OTL designs there is a potential issue that should be noted - nothing more than that. But one must ask - given there is an issue that must be contended with, if one owns an expensive OTL tube amp, is spending $1,400 on HD800's the best choice? Or conversely, if one has the HD800's, and is considering an amp, does spending big $$$ on a nice OTL tube amp to be used primarily with the HD800 make the most sense? Probably not. But again, there are no absolutes.

True enough, but aren't you still making some assumptions between "noted - nothing more than that" and "probably not" (while still generalizing across OTLs)?

And while not denying what you've heard, considering the answers in this thread, experiences at CanJam (even during quite time) and since, and general commentary elsewhere, I'm not sure we've established "given there is an issue." Time will tell though.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blessingx /img/forum/go_quote.gif True enough, but aren't you still making some assumptions between "noted - nothing more than that" and "probably not" (while still generalizing across OTLs)? And while not denying what you've heard, considering the answers in this thread, experiences at CanJam (even during quite time) and since, and general commentary elsewhere, I'm not sure we've established "given there is an issue." Time will tell though.

Just to be VERY clear - it was not me who brought up the issue of OTL compatibility. I am staying away from OTL amps FOR MY EVALUATION, so that people don't try to handwave away the results while citing this inductance issue.

As for your second point, there are enough people that HAVE experienced what I am describing that, at a minimum, I think it's reasonable to say that the HD800's treble is something that will not be for everyone, and may require very careful system matching. Whether it's "Completely right" or "slightly wrong" will never be anything other than a topic of debate. I will present my opinion, and many other people will present theirs.

 

[LAMark]

OK, thought I would weigh in with a qualitative assessment. I have some CDs that have always annoyed me in parts with sibilance and I somehow expected the HD800s to "fix" that problem. One in particular is Paul Simon's Graceland ("The Misssssisssssippi delta was sshhhiiining like a Nasshhonnal guitar"). The sibililance is still there, and it even stands out more with the HD800s than it did with the HD650s. But I suspect that it is due not to any additional sibiliance due to the HD800s, but to the contrast between the inherent sibiliance in the recording and the more realistic background the HD800s provide (not sure exactly how to describe this). Any thoughts on this or more precise descriptions?

Mark.

P.S. Besides this track and the Cowboy Junkies one, any other test tracks for this?

 

[number1sixerfan]

I think the first mistake made by many is that people are expecting the HD800's to be perfect, or to be for everyone. They aren't and they won't. Sorry if that is what people were expecting for $1400, but absolute perfection doesn't exist in the audio hobby. No one will ever agree collectively that one headphone is perfect. There are much more expensive headphones that aren't perfect.(L3000, HP1000, etc. the list goes on)

Anyways, with that said, in regards to sibilance I don't find there to be an issue(although that is just my ears, it could very well be). In regards to the "hottness" of the highs, I do find it to be an issue on some tracks. For example, the background music of different Michael Jackson and Rick James songs are too bright to handle, and thus I find myself listening to them less. This is a bit weird as there are plenty of songs by Journey and Mariah Carey for example, that have just as much emphasis in the highs, but are not bright or too bright to my ears.

This leads me to believe it is about the recording, but I don't know if that is the best way to decide for myself. But no one will be able to say definitely. What could easily be classified as an overemphasis in the highs on some songs, can also be classified as a revealing of less than perfect recordings, or as an under-emphasis of the highs with other headphones. The only person who can say for sure, is the person actually recorded it. Outside of that person's opinion, our musical preferences are what are guiding our decision of "right" vs. "wrong", so it is a crapshoot as you see by the differing opinions in this thread.

Trying to decide definitively whether or not this is an "issue" with the HD800 is relatively pointless imho as it is too impossible to say for sure. There are simply too many variables. But what I can say, is that without a doubt, some tracks are "too bright". Of course it is a small percentage of my collection, but I do LOVE those tracks and now I DO listen to them less.

We can argue all day about whether or not it is the recording or the phones. The bottom line is that using these phones, there is a possibility that they may be too bright on some songs. Regardless of whether or not it is the phone or the recording, the fact of the matter is that I hear it on some songs.