[BigTony]

Sufferring with sibilance over the past year due to illness, i had spent quite a while examining recordings, looking at the frequency spectrum for the sibilence effect; on many recordings its a big hump (FZ Shiek Yerbouti - I Have Been in You has about +25db) which began to make me realise that you actually don't want a flat response, or you'd get an earfull of sibilence on pretty much every vocal track.
Try it for yourself, look at a vocal track, and spot the spikes from the sibilent ssss.
Of course, many tracks have been tweaked to reduce/remove this effect (its a natural phenomena) but live recordings can't usually escape - and poor old Margo Timimms of the CJ has a very sibilant voice.
All you need is Audacity, save a file as WAV, and have a look.

 

[blessingx]

Not at all (and I'm pretty sensitive to issues there), but recent source/amp testing has shown it can sound artificial/a bit metallicy. While I've had phones that varied more based on amp matching, I haven't owned a phone that depended so much on the source/amp synergy. Never sounds really horrible, but I suspect the HD800 will shake up a lot of setups.

 

[Edwood]

Yeah, I'm finding the HD800 quite unforgiving of bad recordings. Ouch.

But great recordings are simply awesome.

 

[ast]

No. No sibilance at all.

 

[Karlosak]

No and I'm pretty sensitive to treble issues.

 

[bada bing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah, I'm finding the HD800 quite unforgiving of bad recordings. Ouch. But great recordings are simply awesome.

^this

The HD6xx are about immune to sibilance even when there's a buttload in the material. The HD800 is a different animal and seems to be especially unforgiving of several sins in bad material like sibilance. A lot of poorly recorded but otherwise toe tapping material needs to be heard with Grados.

I don't think the unforgiving nature of the HD800 is directly related to greater resolution. 'Stats have resolution and aren't quite so critical of recording errors.

 

[Blackmore]

Quite surprising to see such discussion where HD800 been treated such politely while almost every single person who tried them said that. That's kind of ambiguous, if you ask me, especially when I have to compare it with Grado GS1000. As we all know how many folks were simply bitching them up for that matter, to sibilant, to system depended, unforgiving to bad records etc, etc...
Actually glad to see this, cos so far we are not aware of the fact how expensive the set ups of those who praise them to the heaven, but that's not important, isn't?

 

[oqvist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'll put "Sweet Jane" by the Cowboy Junkies in the test pile for when the HD-800s arrive tomorrow. Hopefully. The problem with sibilance is that you regularly find it at live performances. I don't like to fault gear for reproducing something that's on the recording.

oh man you did break down and ordered an HD 800 after all.
Much of this sounds like the Ultrasones, K701 in term of being more unforgiving, transparent, bass that is there and not there and such behaviour

oh and of course unforgiving in regard of sibilance as well.

Makes me want to hear one for sure but I do think I am out of the loop
and will keep that promise

 

[Skylab]

I just saw this thread, and I suppose I am at least partly responsible for its existence

But I think we have locked in on the wrong thing, here. An over-emphasis on sibilance (if there is one), is the symptom, but not the "problem".

The problem, again if there is one, which for me is not yet completely conclusive, is that there is a treble coloration with the HD800, in that more than being just "very revealing, that the HD800 has an elevated treble response that is a departure from flat, neutral response. Yes, this may periodically enhance sibilance, but it has other effects, like a little extra sizzle on cymbals (which I have also noticed).

I have only listened to them so far on 4 different amps - 2 are OTL tube amps, which *may* have an issue with the HD800's due to inductance, so I have stopped using them (although the HD800's lack of ability to play nicely with OTL tube amps will almost certainly preclude my ultimately buying a pair, sadly). The other two are solid-state. And so far my findings are that while slightly less pronounced on the SS amps, there still seems to be some extra treble energy that, when compared to the sound I get from my B&W Nautilus 800 speakers, is actually NOT on the recordings.

It's easy to say "well it's just on the recording" if one does not have any other high resolution transducers with which to determine whether that is the case. But in direct comparisons I have done with the ultra-high resolution B&W N800's, I still maintain that there is some extra treble energy on the HD800's. This might be something people like, and that is fine, but in the context of a very expensive headphone, it's something that I believe needs to be at least discussed.

I need about 50-100 hours more break-in, and then a re-test, for my own final opinion on this topic.

 

[johnwmclean]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just saw this thread, and I suppose I am at least partly responsible for its existence

True

So far with my phones (not nearly broken), there is an emphasis in upper treble - slight but it’s there. And I’ll take back my word “sibilance” which I think now is too strong.

I just a had a three hour session listening to audiophile grade material with the usual suspects Holy Cole, Patricia Barber, Sara K, Brubecks Take Five etc. I heard nothing sibilant at all, and no listener fatigue. But the emphasis in upper treble remains, it’s probably due to not enough hours burn in. The best of that bunch was Sara K What Matters, this is one of the best mic recordings I’ve ever heard, it got me very close to my ideal.

I’m enjoying the HD800 immensely, don’t get me wrong. It’s a stunning piece of kit, but I’m hearing what I think is a deviation from neutral.

Unless everyone’s in agreement that it’s perfect, then we’ll never need to make another headphone again

But I’m in agreement with Skylab on this.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnwmclean /img/forum/go_quote.gif I’m enjoying the HD800 immensely, don’t get me wrong. It’s a stunning piece of kit, but I’m hearing what I think is a deviation from neutral.

Exactly.

 

[k3oxkjo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just saw this thread, and I suppose I am at least partly responsible for its existence But I think we have locked in on the wrong thing, here. An over-emphasis on sibilance (if there is one), is the symptom, but not the "problem". The problem, again if there is one, which for me is not yet completely conclusive, is that there is a treble coloration with the HD800, in that more than being just "very revealing, that the HD800 has an elevated treble response that is a departure from flat, neutral response. Yes, this may periodically enhance sibilance, but it has other effects, like a little extra sizzle on cymbals (which I have also noticed). I have only listened to them so far on 4 different amps - 2 are OTL tube amps, which *may* have an issue with the HD800's due to inductance, so I have stopped using them (although the HD800's lack of ability to play nicely with OTL tube amps will almost certainly preclude my ultimately buying a pair, sadly). The other two are solid-state. And so far my findings are that while slightly less pronounced on the SS amps, there still seems to be some extra treble energy that, when compared to the sound I get from my B&W Nautilus 800 speakers, is actually NOT on the recordings. It's easy to say "well it's just on the recording" if one does not have any other high resolution transducers with which to determine whether that is the case. But in direct comparisons I have done with the ultra-high resolution B&W N800's, I still maintain that there is some extra treble energy on the HD800's. This might be something people like, and that is fine, but in the context of a very expensive headphone, it's something that I believe needs to be at least discussed. I need about 50-100 hours more break-in, and then a re-test, for my own final opinion on this topic.

Actually, considering the B & W 800N (a speaker I actually have a lot of respect for and almost bought myself), I am not surprised at your conclusions. The anachoic response for the B & W as published in Stereophile shows:

Flat from 60 hz to 400 hz (taken as 0 db reference), followed by a shelf down from 400 hz to 1500 hz of -8db, a slight rebound between 2500 hz and 10 khz which is a bit irregular but averages -5 db, then a dip to about -9 db at 20 khz. So, while the resolution of the tweeter sounded superb to me, the level is significantly supressed in the treble range.

I don't see the treble on my HD-800 as being as emphesized as you do, but my comparison is my Harbeth Monitor 40 whose anachoic response as shown on the "REG on audio" site (REG is a reviewer for TAS), shows basically a smooth slope from 60 hz to 20 khz of about -4 db. So through most of the treble, while the Harbeth's are also supressed a bit compaired to reference, the B & W's average about 4 db softer (or the Harbeth's are 4 db brighter, as you will).

The purpose of this is not to get into a pissing contest about the two speakers but just to try and explain where these kind of differences of opinion come from, our relative expectations. Indeed, it was a tough decision for me (my dealer sold both speakers) between the somewhat more natural Harbeth's and the more detailed and deeper bass-ed B & Ws...

 

[eaglejo]

No. It's not in the headphone. Look elsewhere. Just played the track. Swapped out a digital cable and then it was there. They're revealing headphones which is both good and bad.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by k3oxkjo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, considering the B & W 800N (a speaker I actually have a lot of respect for and almost bought myself), I am not surprised at your conclusions. The anachoic response for the B & W as published in Stereophile shows: Flat from 60 hz to 400 hz (taken as 0 db reference), followed by a shelf down from 400 hz to 1500 hz of -8db, a slight rebound between 2500 hz and 10 khz which is a bit irregular but averages -5 db, then a dip to about -9 db at 20 khz. So, while the resolution of the tweeter sounded superb to me, the level is significantly supressed in the treble range. I don't see the treble on my HD-800 as being as emphesized as you do, but my comparison is my Harbeth Monitor 40 whose anachoic response as shown on the "REG on audio" site (REG is a reviewer for TAS), shows basically a smooth slope from 60 hz to 20 khz of about -4 db. So through most of the treble, while the Harbeth's are also supressed a bit compaired to reference, the B & W's average about 4 db softer (or the Harbeth's are 4 db brighter, as you will). The purpose of this is not to get into a pissing contest about the two speakers but just to try and explain where these kind of differences of opinion come from, our relative expectations. Indeed, it was a tough decision for me (my dealer sold both speakers) between the somewhat more natural Harbeth's and the more detailed and deeper bass-ed B & Ws...

A good post, but I do not think that this negates the issue. I am also using other headphones for the comparison, and the Nautilus tweeter is not what anyone would describe as rolled off in actual in-room use. The Nautilus tweeter is tricky to measure because of it's extraordinary off-axis uniformity - a truly flat on-axis anechoic response would make the thing unbearably bright in-room, since it is not rolled off to the sides the way a box speaker like the Harbeth will be - just a result of the design. It's still a very useful reference point, IMO. But there are no absolutes in this case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eaglejo /img/forum/go_quote.gif No. It's not in the headphone. Look elsewhere. Just played the track. Swapped out a digital cable and then it was there. They're revealing headphones which is both good and bad.

I respectfully disagree. I've tried multiple amps and sources, and my opinion remains.

None of this means it's a bad headphone. It's a PHENOMENAL headphone. It's just not perfect, IMO. I am not the only person who hears this issue - far from it. I've received some interesting PM's on the topic, which of course I will not share, but I'd say there's a pretty healthy faction of people who hear the same thing I do in the HD800.

 

[sling5s]

I heard the recording several times on the corda symphony. It's there..especially at loud volumes and when sweet jane is accented. I believe it's the recording though.
It's the only song I know where I noticed the issue. Sarah Brightman may also sound sibilance because of her voice but I have not checked.