[pb21cyclist]

I was just about to pull the trigger and get some HD650s but then read about The HE400s and now I am not so sure!

I like the sound of the HD650s, dark, strong mids, competent bass and comfortable to wear etc. From what I have read about the HE400s though it seems they could be 'better'.

It seems the bass is slightly stronger, which to me is a good thing, similar mids, but the highs are higher. How high are they compared? I would prefer darker/recessed highs to make them easier to listen too, at least neutral sounding.

Also I have read that because they are planer the HE400s have a very black background, what does that mean?

Also I only have an E17 DAC/amp which may lend itself towards the HE400s as the HD650s are more amp dependent, right?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[jerg]

I was just about to pull the trigger and get some HD650s but then read about The HE400s and now I am not so sure

I like the sound of the HD650s, dark, strong mids, competent bass and comfortable to wear etc. From what I have read about the HE400s though it seems they could be 'better'.

It seems the bass is slightly stronger, which to me is a good thing, similar mids, but the highs are higher. How high are they compared? I would prefer darker/recessed highs to make them easier to listen too, at least neutral sounding.
 
Yes but bass is not just stronger, it's plain better in all technicalities (extension, flatness, texture, impact etc). HD650 has a more cohesive and neutral mids, but HE400 have a 'clearer' midrange with better instrument separation.
 
HE400s do not have completely recessed treble; it only has recessed upper midrange / lower treble, and that frequency region is not where the treble detail is, but only determines how aggressive or laid-back the sound signature is. So HD650 have a more forward and aggressive sound (not by much), while HE400s have a more laid-back and polite sound. Don't confuse this with the bass levels though, in terms of bass HE400s are much more dynamic and fun and ear-popping compared to the Senns.

Also I have read that because they are planer the HE400s have a very black background, what does that mean?
 
They actually don't have a very black background. What you are thinking of is instrument separation - being a planar, it is very articulate and quick, so even with very busy music passages, it will handle them with ease and you get a lot more "air" between the sounds of the music than typical dynamic headphones could render.

Also I only have an E17 DAC/amp which may lend itself towards the HE400s as the HD650s are more amp dependent, right?
 
This is correct.
 

 

[pb21cyclist]

Thanks for the reply.
 
I think the HE400s will be better for me in my situation. Better bass, laid back sounding and more suited to the amp.

 

[TMRaven]

HD650 is overall tonally brighter than the HE-400, so if you're liking the HD650's 'darkness,' then HE-400 will give you even more of it.  The HE-400's treble can take on two roles depending on the music being fed to it.  Overall it's very lax and laid-back, which I find very natural, but at the same time it'll also give you an immense amount of sparkle in the extended highs if the song has lots of information there.  HD650's treble I don't consider bright or dark, just neutral.  Maybe not as extended as it could be.
 
The HE-400 is just a faster headphone, period.  It boasts a better instrument separation because of it. However, its mids are not as refined as the HD650, primarily because its frequency response in the mids isn't quite as smooth (though velours go a long way in helping this) and it has more distortion than the HD650 in this area, so its background won't seem as black.  HD650s are very snappy sounding in comparison, while the HE-400s seem smooth and almost blended together (but don't confuse that with lack of detail, because the HE-400s are very detailed)
 
The bass is the biggest difference between the two.  HD650 doesn't extend well into the low bass, HE-400 does.

 

[niten]

I had the same dilemma deciding between the hd650 and he400 just recently, but I eventually decided on the he400 for a number of reasons.
 
My main reason was that I was bothered that the prices of the hd650 had spiked up so much in about half a year. They were available for as low as $325-350 and have since been price adjusted to $400+. Whereas the he400 though they seem rather steady at $399-400 as a new product, if you contact reputable online sellers like Moon Audio & HeadRoom you can get the prices down to $375 & $350 totals; respectively. Pricing played a large factor in my decision mainly because I was so back and forth between the two headphones when it came to performance and other relevant attributes.
 
To answer one of your questions, it does seem that there is a consensus on this forum that the hd650 benefits and up-scales slightly better than the he400 when paired with quality amps. The other side of that coin is the he400 is less dependent on amps to produce quality sounds.
 
Hopefully my opinion and insights can be help you come to a decision you are happy with.

 

[pb21cyclist]

Cheers guys. Seems the HE400 is the way forward for myself!

 

[Tim Maestas]

So then, the hd650 may best the he400 when they're amped? Does this mean that it would be best to get the 650 with an amp? (If somehow the price were equal.) Also, what would be considered a "decent" amp? Is there anything in this category for $100-150? I also didn't know that retailers worked with customers on prices?! I'll have to attempt a deal on my next purchase.

 

[jerg]

Quote:

So then, the hd650 may best the he400 when they're amped? Does this mean that it would be best to get the 650 with an amp? (If somehow the price were equal.) Also, what would be considered a "decent" amp? Is there anything in this category for $100-150? I also didn't know that retailers worked with customers on prices?! I'll have to attempt a deal on my next purchase.

The minimum "decent" amp for HD650 seems to be Schiit Lyr which runs for ~$450.

 

[tdockweiler]

The minimum "decent" amp for HD650 seems to be Schiit Lyr which runs for ~$450.

That's Hogwash!

(sorry, I always wanted to say that word)

The Asgard, Headroom Micro and even E9 are perfectly OK with them and more than decent. Even my Total Airhead has zero problems with the HD-650 and even manages to sound impressive.

Next thing you know, someone will say the HD-650 requires a $1000 tube amp and just as much for a DAC.

Can't forget the O2 also..one of the amps listed I haven't heard.

 

[jerg]

Quote:

That's Hogwash!
(sorry, I always wanted to say that word)
The Asgard, Headroom Micro and even E9 are perfectly OK with them and more than decent. Even my Total Airhead has zero problems with the HD-650 and even manages to sound impressive.
Next thing you know, someone will say the HD-650 requires a $1000 tube amp and just as much for a DAC.
Can't forget the O2 also..one of the amps listed I haven't heard.

Hey I'm just running off what people who own both HD650 and HE400s consider as needed for the former to truly exceed the latter in performance. I'm sure the HD650s sound nice off lesser amps, they are fairly sensitive after all.

 

[DivergeUnify]

Quote:

Hey I'm just running off what people who own both HD650 and HE400s consider as needed for the former to truly exceed the latter in performance. I'm sure the HD650s sound nice off lesser amps, they are fairly sensitive after all.

E7/E9 made my HD650s sound incredible.  This mythically scaling sound quality seems to be limited by flat out superior headphones such as Koss ESP 950.  The way I would describe the increase from Senn> Koss seems to be the way many people describe Fiio > Schiit.  

 

[jerg]

Quote:

E7/E9 made my HD650s sound incredible.  This mythically scaling sound quality seems to be limited by flat out superior headphones such as Koss ESP 950.  The way I would describe the increase from Senn> Koss seems to be the way many people describe Fiio > Schiit.  

Again, reference points are what I'm getting at, "E7/E9 made my HD650s sound incredible" is an absolute statement, and does not answer things like whether or not HD650s improve significantly on an ODAC/Lyr setup, or if HE400 running on E7/E9 sound better or worse than your setup. 

 

[DivergeUnify]

Quote:

Again, reference points are what I'm getting at, "E7/E9 made my HD650s sound incredible" is an absolute statement, and does not answer things like whether or not HD650s improve significantly on an ODAC/Lyr setup, or if HE400 running on E7/E9 sound better or worse than your setup. 

I'm not neccessarily attacking you, but the idea in general that one amp may sound sufficient, but that it takes another tier of amp to "truly bring alive" certain headphones.  
 
The E7/E9 made the 650s sound more than alive for me.  Any positive adjective you could use would probably suffice. To suggest that I was not truly hearing the HD650s( and this is just an example) seems... farfetched.  A result of "this is much more expensive, thus much better" thinking.  And again, superior headphones( like the ESP 950 for example) create limits to how much better an amp can truly make a pair of HD650s

 

[jerg]

Quote:

I'm not neccessarily attacking you, but the idea in general that one amp may sound sufficient, but that it takes another tier of amp to "truly bring alive" certain headphones.  
 
The E7/E9 made the 650s sound more than alive for me.  Any positive adjective you could use would probably suffice. To suggest that I was not truly hearing the HD650s( and this is just an example) seems... farfetched.  A result of "this is much more expensive, thus much better" thinking.  And again, superior headphones( like the ESP 950 for example) create limits to how much better an amp can truly make a pair of HD650s

None taken; personal enjoyment is of course paramount, I'm just stating the notion that there might be pretty significant increase in performance with better upstream gear. Though you might love the HD650 only on E7/E9, others with more peculiar or picky tastes might find it insufficient and require a boost in performance to like these cans.
 
In a way it's a blessing to be satisfied with less expensive setups in this hobby. 

 

[TMRaven]

Yes I too do not like absolute statements, they get people nowhere.  However I feel the general 'HD650s sound mediocre and need minimum amount of amp that costs 500 dollars' etc are absolute statements too.  Hell I found the HD650 nice even off my iPod.