[MorrisL]

I'm glad you've decided to move up to the HD600! I'm also planning to upgrade to the HD650... 

Thank you. I actually don't even think that would be an upgrade. Both used to be the flagships of their respective brands and are exactly on par as far as sound quality (Beyerdynamic even has the edge with the build quality, to be fair). I just believe that making the 990 so bright was poor judgement from the Beyerdynamic engineers. It just didn't need to be that bright, considering that 880 itself was bright enough, to have a considerable number of people complain about it.

 

[MorrisL]

I used to believe that the amplifier contributed relatively little to the sound.

I know a thing or two about electronics (I have designed microphones in the past), and I don't want the amplifier to contribute to the sound at all, apart from amplifying it.
 
What I want is a neutral amplification of the signal fed into the amplifier (something the cheap o2 can do just as well as amps costing 20 times the price), and I want to enjoy the sound of each headphone I use with it, in their unique delivery. I am pretty sure that is a well-informed position.

 

[Shaffer]

Edit: Reply deleted.

I've talked to you before, when you were asking for advice. This facet of the discussion is pointless. Good luck.

 

[MorrisL]

Having had an O2 in my system, we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm curious, though. Which amps 20 times its price have you had in your system for an extended audition? Like most who preach an identical position, you haven't listed your gear in your profile. What do you use for a source?

Edit: text

None. I'll readily admit it. My point is I am not interested in any amps to the extent that they color (even if it's to my signature preference) the sound. Just a neutral, distortion free amplification of the signal is all I need. From what I've read the inventor of the o2 has offered a challenge to see if anyone can tell it apart from expensive amps in a blind test. If any such blind tests have been organized, I'd love to look into the data.
I'll trust blind test results better than my own ears, knowing how notoriously foolish our judgement can be when we're influenced by various cognitive biases.

 

[Oktyabr]

I posted this for posterity because I too am looking for new phones.  I've got some B-stock AKG K712s on order but am already considering what to do if they suck and I have to send them back.  All three, the ATH-AD900x (not available to graph), DT990 Pro (the 250 ohm version, anyway) and the Q701 are less than $200 now on Amazon, brand new, which is still less than half the price of a new pair of K712 or roughly half of either the HD600 and HD650, and somewhat less than what I've paid for my refurbished K712 (that I still haven't received).

Comfort is my number one priority.  Sound stage takes second place and overall sound quality in close third.  I loved the detailed spaciousness of my K701s but had to sell them because the bumps on the headband made using them for an extended period (for me, anyway) a masochistic example of pain vs pleasure.  I know the Q701 has similar bumps but I'm willing to modify this set, if need be, and have a better idea of how to do it than I did a few years ago when I had the K701.

I found this thread because I'm now very interested in the DT990 as well.  

I also discovered this website, which I found fun to to play with...  it MUST be taken with a grain of salt because ultimately what you hear isn't THAT headphone but a recording of that headphone through your *current* listening device (IEM, headphone, speakers).  In my case I demo'd it with a pair of ATH-M50, which are well known for bumping up the bass and rolling off the treble more than most "reference" class headphones.  Thus I understand that the sample that sounds best to me, through them, is probably higher in the treble and lower in the bass when listened to directly.  Through my M50s I was actually surprised I liked the samples of the DT990 followed by the HD650 best, even better than the AKG line up!

http://www.sonicsense.com/resourcecenter/reviews/headphone-shootouts/open-back-reference-headphones

 

[brandonlyz]

Actually I just went to audition HD650 yesterday, and I found that I still much prefer the DT990.
 
I've realized that the HD650 vocals is really right in your face, whilst my DT990 is slightly pulled back and sounds further away. However, I felt that the instrument separation and bass on the HD650 were no comparison to the 990. The bass on the HD650 sounds very "crowded"/"loose"/"muddy" in my opinion, and the all of the instruments were packed in tightly and could not be differentiated. I didn't audition the HD600 because I like my headphones with slightly more bass than neutral, but the HE-560 I tried from Hifiman were pretty awesome tho The price tag is insane tho
 
PS this is just my opinion. I'm not and I don't want to sound like I'm bashing the HD650.

 

[djteo333]

  Actually I just went to audition HD650 yesterday, and I found that I still much prefer the DT990.
 
I've realized that the HD650 vocals is really right in your face, whilst my DT990 is slightly pulled back and sounds further away. However, I felt that the instrument separation and bass on the HD650 were no comparison to the 990. The bass on the HD650 sounds very "crowded"/"loose"/"muddy" in my opinion, and the all of the instruments were packed in tightly and could not be differentiated. I didn't audition the HD600 because I like my headphones with slightly more bass than neutral, but the HE-560 I tried from Hifiman were pretty awesome tho The price tag is insane tho
 
PS this is just my opinion. I'm not and I don't want to sound like I'm bashing the HD650.

I've got to disagree with you here.  I have both of them, and when I switch between the two I hear something different.  
 
The DT990 has the bigger soundstage making you feel like you're sitting in the middle of a concert hall.  It's imaging and separation are wonderful, maybe a little better then the hd650.  The bass is big but lacks refinement and detail.  When against the hd650, the mids and highs sound a little thin and lifeless.
 
The HD650 has a smaller soundstage like you're sitting in the front row of the concert hall.  It has a 3d sound like you're there with the music.  It's imaging and separation are almost as good as the dt990, everything's in their right place and are easily distinguishable from each other.  The bass is less prominent than the dt990, but it is more tight and textured.  The mids so much more rich and detailed on the hd650, it's such a yummy sounding set of cans. 
 
When I play games, I usually use the dt990's.  The big soundstage with great separation is great in that regard.  When listening to music, it's a no brainer, the hd650's make  music come to life.    

 

[Shaffer]

I've got to disagree with you here.  I have both of them, and when I switch between the two I hear something different.  

The DT990 has the bigger soundstage making you feel like you're sitting in the middle of a concert hall.  It's imaging and separation are wonderful, maybe a little better then the hd650.  The bass is big but lacks refinement and detail.  When against the hd650, it sounds a little thin and lifeless.

The HD650 has a smaller soundstage like you're sitting in the front row of the concert hall.  It has a 3d sound like you're there with the music.  It's imaging and separation are almost as good as the dt990, everything's in their right place and are easily distinguishable from each other.  The bass is less prominent than the dt990, but it is more tight and textured.  The sound is so much more rich and detailed on the hd650, it's such a yummy sounding set of cans. 

When I play games, I usually use the dt990's.  The big soundstage with great separation is great in that regard.  When listening to music, it's a no brainer, the hd650's make  music come to life.    

The two claims seem to contradict each other. Which amplifier are you using, BTW?

Edit: text

 

[Youth]

The two claims seem to contradict each other. Which amplifier are you using, BTW?

Edit: text

 
I also want to know this, as well as what version of the DT990. People might get the wrong idea of the DT990 if you dont mention this. DT990 is very picky in amps and each version has strengh and weaknesess.

 

[djteo333]

The two claims seem to contradict each other. Which amplifier are you using, BTW?

Edit: text

i meant the mids sounded thin compared to the senns, sorry bout that.  I am currently using the lyr - bifrost combo. 

 

[brandonlyz]

I've got to disagree with you here.  I have both of them, and when I switch between the two I hear something different.  

The DT990 has the bigger soundstage making you feel like you're sitting in the middle of a concert hall.  It's imaging and separation are wonderful, maybe a little better then the hd650.  The bass is big but lacks refinement and detail.  When against the hd650, the mids and highs sound a little thin and lifeless.

The HD650 has a smaller soundstage like you're sitting in the front row of the concert hall.  It has a 3d sound like you're there with the music.  It's imaging and separation are almost as good as the dt990, everything's in their right place and are easily distinguishable from each other.  The bass is less prominent than the dt990, but it is more tight and textured.  The mids so much more rich and detailed on the hd650, it's such a yummy sounding set of cans. 

When I play games, I usually use the dt990's.  The big soundstage with great separation is great in that regard.  When listening to music, it's a no brainer, the hd650's make  music come to life.    

Hi all, sorry I hadn't had the time to respond, was quite busy.

I'm using a DT990 pro 250 ohm with a fiio E07K as the DAC and and iCan Micro as the amplifier.

Frankly, does the mids sound good on the HD650? Yes! It's sounds great! No arguments there at all.

However, what gets to me is the bass and the separation. Perhaps I am someone who loves a huge soundstage that details every nuances of the song prominently. Therefore, when I was listening to the HD650, I felt as though it did not portray the width of the sound as how I would have liked it. It seemed to be very crowded. Perhaps one reason I can think of would be that I've been listening to the 990 and gotten used to their soundstage.

Now as for the bass, I love signature with a tight bass impact. Explosive, hard hitting, but finishes cleanly. When I was auditioning the 650s,what I heard was to be me "quite loose", where there was no "punch" that I was looking out for. Again, this could be attributed to the fact that I've gotten used to the 990s signature.

I understand that everyone has differing viewpoints, and I appreciate the sharing of yours. Perhaps one day I'll do a longer audition in order to better understand if I'm missing out on the excellent qualities of the sennheisers that you've pointed out.

 

[jazzwave]

I understand that everyone has differing viewpoints, and I appreciate the sharing of yours. Perhaps one day I'll do a longer audition in order to better understand if I'm missing out on the excellent qualities of the sennheisers that you've pointed out.

 


Good plan...

 

[derbigpr]

I wonder what kind of gear people use with DT990's to find the mids recessed and highs harsh.  Mids recessed? In what way?  Vocals are more forward on them than on DT880's and HD650's and have far more body and texture than on DT880's which sound thin in comparison.  Comparing them side by side even to K701's, voices are not any less pronounced than on AKG's, except they have a much better tonality on Beyers, more natural sound. And harsh highs? Again, in which way? I never heard any harshness on my DT990's since I got them, in any frequency range, not even compared to T1's or HD650's which both have a very refined sound, for different reasons though.  I always found the DT990Pro to be insane value for money. In Europe they cost 140€, while HD600's or HD650's cost 300-350€ depending on the store, and that is a joke to be honest, because DT990's are every bit as good if not better technically than either of them, and are definitely by far the best headphones you can buy at that price. They cost the same as DT770Pro's, which again, is a joke to  anyone who owned both, because they're clearly not on the same level.
 
I just don't understand how some people find them so harsh and bright, or so V-shaped,  ok maybe slightly V-shaped, but they're still very much natural sounding headphones, it just makes no sense from my point of view and my experience. I definitely find headphones like DT770 Pro's more  harsh, I find the K612Pro's more harsh in the highs, even K701's sometimes.  To me,  DT990's sound smoother than DT880's, and have a higher sound resolution overall, it's as if the drivers breathe better in a fully open design instead of being slightly overly dampened in the semi-open design.

 

[MorrisL]

I drive my 990 pro's with Presonus HP4. The sound at moderately loud volumes is so harsh that my ears are in pain for hours... This is not mild discomfort; I'm talking serous pain and heavy fatigue. 
 
Yeah, I'm not saying they're bad and they may very well be better than 600/650/701 and all... I don't know; I never heard any of those. But the 990 is too bright. Too bright! A headphone this bright is a defective headphone as far as I am concerned. Others may have a different hearing experience.
 
Every time I say this, someone is quick to point out how I need to use a tube amp and this and that... They are suggesting a workaround to deal with a bad design on a headphone and they're not admitting it's what they're doing. Tube amps may distort the sound in a way that's preferable to me, but I am not interested in that. If the headphone sounds too bright on a neutral solid state amp, the problem is with the headphone.

 

[Shaffer]

Morris, we've talked about this before and I see you still have not tried a good amplifier. Your choice.