PiccoloNamek
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What about your own?
hd 650 smearing sounds?!
- Thread starter tourmaline
- Start date
Davesrose
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Humm.....I see this forum still has the same debates!
Could someone tell me what the difference is between the Sennheiser veil and "note smearing"???
My take is that it's the same thing. Sennheisers don't have "slow" drivers....an instrument sounds like an instrument and is not "sluggish". Now the HD580 series was engineered to have properties similar to speakers or listening to a live event. Your upper frequencies (which are many harmonics) are attenuated. The "detail" (upper midrange) is not as pronounced as other headphones. Some people will like it and others won't.
I personally prefer the HD650 to the HD600 for classical music. The HD650s are the best headphones I've heard for symphonies: they sound the most accurate for that setting. Steve Hoffman doesn't engineer classical music, so for his music, the HD600 might be more "accurate": there is not one golden mean.
System only has so much to do with it. Every headphone has a characteristic that will either float your boat or not.
Quote:
Great amp and cable help enhance a sound signature. However, I found the HD650s don't sound as balanced with the foam removed. They seemed to lose a lot of extension foamless IMO. I think one of the reasons why the HD650 is really good for classical is that it has the most linear attenuation in its treble: even compared to the HD580 or HD600. That's what Sennheiser has been improving on....now either you like that or you don't
My take is that it's the same thing. Sennheisers don't have "slow" drivers....an instrument sounds like an instrument and is not "sluggish". Now the HD580 series was engineered to have properties similar to speakers or listening to a live event. Your upper frequencies (which are many harmonics) are attenuated. The "detail" (upper midrange) is not as pronounced as other headphones. Some people will like it and others won't.
I personally prefer the HD650 to the HD600 for classical music. The HD650s are the best headphones I've heard for symphonies: they sound the most accurate for that setting. Steve Hoffman doesn't engineer classical music, so for his music, the HD600 might be more "accurate": there is not one golden mean.
System only has so much to do with it. Every headphone has a characteristic that will either float your boat or not.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Stoney /img/forum/go_quote.gif The best sound from the HD650 requires: foam removed great cable great amp, esp balanced |
Great amp and cable help enhance a sound signature. However, I found the HD650s don't sound as balanced with the foam removed. They seemed to lose a lot of extension foamless IMO. I think one of the reasons why the HD650 is really good for classical is that it has the most linear attenuation in its treble: even compared to the HD580 or HD600. That's what Sennheiser has been improving on....now either you like that or you don't
rsaavedra
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Quote:
Keep in mind what you see in the graph are smoothed-out curves. The actual response at a particular frequency might be higher (or lower) than what you can see in the graph.
With specific music, some instrument might hit a particular note that goes right onto one of the high-peaks of the response, and could sound clearly brighter in one headphone than in the other, despite the fact that looking at the smoothed-out curves, they look similar enough there.
At least that's my theory. It would explain why some music and tracks on the 880 are way clearly annoyingly too bright for me compared to when listening to the 650s. The response does show that the 880 is brighter than the 650, but I wouldn't have guessed it's that much brighter from the respose graphs compared to what my ears tell me.
| Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif The difference between the 650 and 600 at the peak is only a couple of db. |
Keep in mind what you see in the graph are smoothed-out curves. The actual response at a particular frequency might be higher (or lower) than what you can see in the graph.
With specific music, some instrument might hit a particular note that goes right onto one of the high-peaks of the response, and could sound clearly brighter in one headphone than in the other, despite the fact that looking at the smoothed-out curves, they look similar enough there.
At least that's my theory. It would explain why some music and tracks on the 880 are way clearly annoyingly too bright for me compared to when listening to the 650s. The response does show that the 880 is brighter than the 650, but I wouldn't have guessed it's that much brighter from the respose graphs compared to what my ears tell me.
PiccoloNamek
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Wow, Dave, I haven't seen you in a while! What's up?
greggf
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Smearing=veil=fatness?? Etc.?
Sennheiser needs to fix this with their next headphone. I mean that they need to fix this whole quandary or conundrum or whatever the word is (and no matter how it's spelled) that we're in.
I want a headphone from them that has the tonal richness, if that's the right term, the refinement of the HD650, but with the voicing (?) of the HD600. You know, more neutral, like the AKG K701, only richer, less thin, more like a "Sennheiser sound."
And I want the thing to be no more than $1,000, and designed from the get-go TO BE DRIVEN BY A GOOD HEADPHONE AMP, rather than designed to fit any ol' indiscriminate jack.
Sennheiser needs to fix this with their next headphone. I mean that they need to fix this whole quandary or conundrum or whatever the word is (and no matter how it's spelled) that we're in.
I want a headphone from them that has the tonal richness, if that's the right term, the refinement of the HD650, but with the voicing (?) of the HD600. You know, more neutral, like the AKG K701, only richer, less thin, more like a "Sennheiser sound."
And I want the thing to be no more than $1,000, and designed from the get-go TO BE DRIVEN BY A GOOD HEADPHONE AMP, rather than designed to fit any ol' indiscriminate jack.
Davesrose
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Piccolo: Yeah, I'm not on these boards as much
Keeping very busy with trips and buying a house
Nice to see you're still keeping to these HD650 threads though
tourmaline
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Quote:
I see you use the silver dragons on the hd650. They without a doubt will reveal more detail compared to the stock cable. It could be that the smearing isn't as apperent with the silver dragons. Silver cables in general have more refined edges compared to copper cables, it is in the outer edges smearing is heard, can be detected.
But one persons reports he can hear the smearing with upgraded cable and SS amps as well. Probably is the driver design as it is.
| Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif Humm.....I see this forum still has the same debates!
My take is that it's the same thing. Sennheisers don't have "slow" drivers....an instrument sounds like an instrument and is not "sluggish". Now the HD580 series was engineered to have properties similar to speakers or listening to a live event. Your upper frequencies (which are many harmonics) are attenuated. The "detail" (upper midrange) is not as pronounced as other headphones. Some people will like it and others won't. I personally prefer the HD650 to the HD600 for classical music. The HD650s are the best headphones I've heard for symphonies: they sound the most accurate for that setting. Steve Hoffman doesn't engineer classical music, so for his music, the HD600 might be more "accurate": there is not one golden mean. System only has so much to do with it. Every headphone has a characteristic that will either float your boat or not. Great amp and cable help enhance a sound signature. However, I found the HD650s don't sound as balanced with the foam removed. They seemed to lose a lot of extension foamless IMO. I think one of the reasons why the HD650 is really good for classical is that it has the most linear attenuation in its treble: even compared to the HD580 or HD600. That's what Sennheiser has been improving on....now either you like that or you don't
|
I see you use the silver dragons on the hd650. They without a doubt will reveal more detail compared to the stock cable. It could be that the smearing isn't as apperent with the silver dragons. Silver cables in general have more refined edges compared to copper cables, it is in the outer edges smearing is heard, can be detected.
But one persons reports he can hear the smearing with upgraded cable and SS amps as well. Probably is the driver design as it is.
Roam
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Quote:
Frequency response and distortion is only part of the story as they cover only the frequency domain. Music as we all know takes place in both frequency and time, we also have to examine the behavior of the headphone in the time domain. For that, we have the basic impulse response test which measures the speed and settling time of the drivers, along with the waterfall graph which is a great tool for spotting resonance and stored energy issues. These tests are more or less standard for speakers, but as far as I know, no one outside of a headphone company's labs has carried them out on headphones.
As for why waterfall plots are important, let's look at closed headphones since they present the worst case scenario in terms of energy storage and resonance. Several of the "studio style" closed headphones measure reasonably flat, there's no big peaks or dips which would indicate issues with colouration, yet they still sound quite coloured, especially in the midrange. The FR & distortion chart won't tell you much, unless you got lucky and hit one of the resonant frequencies with the the single tones or one of their harmonics.
If on the other hand a waterfall plot was made, the problems would become quite clear. The resonances & stored energy would be seen as ridges which stand above the noisefloor, and do not decay cleanly. That's the cause of the colourations.
Open headphones still suffer from these issues, only to a lesser extent. Every physical object resonates, the diaphragm itself, the mountings for the drivers, the housing, screens, everything. The fun part of design is reducing the resonances & energy storage to the minimum possible, along with deciding where the remaining resonances shall fall to minimize their detrimental effects on the music.
| Originally Posted by esuko /img/forum/go_quote.gif Coloration usually is a spike in frequency or in distortion response. Changing tone of particular instrument or voice affected by the problem region. Looking HD650 response graphs from Headroom you do not find either. |
Frequency response and distortion is only part of the story as they cover only the frequency domain. Music as we all know takes place in both frequency and time, we also have to examine the behavior of the headphone in the time domain. For that, we have the basic impulse response test which measures the speed and settling time of the drivers, along with the waterfall graph which is a great tool for spotting resonance and stored energy issues. These tests are more or less standard for speakers, but as far as I know, no one outside of a headphone company's labs has carried them out on headphones.
As for why waterfall plots are important, let's look at closed headphones since they present the worst case scenario in terms of energy storage and resonance. Several of the "studio style" closed headphones measure reasonably flat, there's no big peaks or dips which would indicate issues with colouration, yet they still sound quite coloured, especially in the midrange. The FR & distortion chart won't tell you much, unless you got lucky and hit one of the resonant frequencies with the the single tones or one of their harmonics.
If on the other hand a waterfall plot was made, the problems would become quite clear. The resonances & stored energy would be seen as ridges which stand above the noisefloor, and do not decay cleanly. That's the cause of the colourations.
Open headphones still suffer from these issues, only to a lesser extent. Every physical object resonates, the diaphragm itself, the mountings for the drivers, the housing, screens, everything. The fun part of design is reducing the resonances & energy storage to the minimum possible, along with deciding where the remaining resonances shall fall to minimize their detrimental effects on the music.
PiccoloNamek
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Quote:
Not really. I compared them with mine and couldn't tell the difference. Exactly what about silver will cause more refined edges? Just because silver is a shiny metal doesn't mean it will make your headphones sound any shiner... true, silver is more conductive than copper, but I don't think this matters much when transmitting only audio information.
(If you couldn't tell, I am a huge cable skeptic.)
| They without a doubt will reveal more detail compared to the stock cable. |
Not really. I compared them with mine and couldn't tell the difference. Exactly what about silver will cause more refined edges? Just because silver is a shiny metal doesn't mean it will make your headphones sound any shiner... true, silver is more conductive than copper, but I don't think this matters much when transmitting only audio information.
(If you couldn't tell, I am a huge cable skeptic.)
tourmaline
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Quote:
Ever heard a really good electrostatic system? I think these are even better then a dynamic headphone in that respect. They lack the drive and musicallity, but have more distinct detail. You can easier disect an orchestra with an electrostat then with the hd650, the hd650 has a more musical representation with better tonal accuracy. Electrostats sound light in that respect.
| Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif Humm.....I see this forum still has the same debates!
My take is that it's the same thing. Sennheisers don't have "slow" drivers....an instrument sounds like an instrument and is not "sluggish". Now the HD580 series was engineered to have properties similar to speakers or listening to a live event. Your upper frequencies (which are many harmonics) are attenuated. The "detail" (upper midrange) is not as pronounced as other headphones. Some people will like it and others won't. I personally prefer the HD650 to the HD600 for classical music. The HD650s are the best headphones I've heard for symphonies: they sound the most accurate for that setting. Steve Hoffman doesn't engineer classical music, so for his music, the HD600 might be more "accurate": there is not one golden mean. System only has so much to do with it. Every headphone has a characteristic that will either float your boat or not. Great amp and cable help enhance a sound signature. However, I found the HD650s don't sound as balanced with the foam removed. They seemed to lose a lot of extension foamless IMO. I think one of the reasons why the HD650 is really good for classical is that it has the most linear attenuation in its treble: even compared to the HD580 or HD600. That's what Sennheiser has been improving on....now either you like that or you don't
|
Ever heard a really good electrostatic system? I think these are even better then a dynamic headphone in that respect. They lack the drive and musicallity, but have more distinct detail. You can easier disect an orchestra with an electrostat then with the hd650, the hd650 has a more musical representation with better tonal accuracy. Electrostats sound light in that respect.
tourmaline
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Quote:
I tasted it in your commend.
I have experimented extensively with cables( 25 years) and i come to the conclusion that silver has better detail, especially silver plated copper is really nice, the detail of silver and the tonal balance of copper. Pure silver can sound soft. I find Copper lacking in the ultra highs, less sharp defined edges of tones, missing microdetails.
Of course you need a system that is able to show the smallest changes, but they are there. I've never found a copper cable sounding the same as a silver cable or silver plated cable. Silver plated copper seems to unify the best of both.
It does, especially at 2 volts, you need the best conductivity possible since you will loose microdetail during transport and because of the materials used. Every cable has impact on the original signal, the less, the better.
| Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not really. I compared them with mine and couldn't tell the difference. Exactly what about silver will cause more refined edges? Just because silver is a shiny metal doesn't mean it will make your headphones sound any shiner... true, silver is more conductive than silver, but I don't think this matters much when transmitting only audio information. (If you couldn't tell, I am a huge cable skeptic.) |
I tasted it in your commend.
I have experimented extensively with cables( 25 years) and i come to the conclusion that silver has better detail, especially silver plated copper is really nice, the detail of silver and the tonal balance of copper. Pure silver can sound soft. I find Copper lacking in the ultra highs, less sharp defined edges of tones, missing microdetails.
Of course you need a system that is able to show the smallest changes, but they are there. I've never found a copper cable sounding the same as a silver cable or silver plated cable. Silver plated copper seems to unify the best of both.
It does, especially at 2 volts, you need the best conductivity possible since you will loose microdetail during transport and because of the materials used. Every cable has impact on the original signal, the less, the better.
Davesrose
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Yes I have.....and I don't like them as much as dynamic headphones. Different presentation: doesn't sound as lively to me. With the HD650s, it sounds like I'm in front and in the audience. With "detailed"/"fast" emphasized headphones, I miss the timbre that you get with certain instruments. Percussions, violins, and acoustic/ classical guitars in particular. I'm really into classical guitar actually: highly "detailed" headphones seem to miss the nice overtones that I get when I play or listen to a performance. With a detailed headphone, it's more like you're on top of the instrument instead of sitting back a bit. What is more "real"? Depends on the music, the way it was mixed, what system you use, and what headphone you like.
Quote:
As shocking as it might seem.....before I had the silver dragons, my HD650s had stock cables
Yes, I splurged for recables to see what they'd do. I certainly dissuade anyone from breaking the bank to try to get a recable. They truly are the least effective way to alter a headphone's sound. When I first switched cables, I heard a subtle difference. It's not like the HD650s where massive mud balls before, and then all of a sudden "the veil" lifted
They still have their own sound signature and don't sound anything like AKGs or electrostats.....thank goodness!!!
| Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ever heard a really good electrostatic system? I think these are even better then a dynamic headphone in that respect. They lack the drive and musicallity, but have more distinct detail. You can easier disect an orchestra with an electrostat then with the hd650, the hd650 has a more musical representation with better tonal accuracy. Electrostats sound light in that respect. |
Yes I have.....and I don't like them as much as dynamic headphones. Different presentation: doesn't sound as lively to me. With the HD650s, it sounds like I'm in front and in the audience. With "detailed"/"fast" emphasized headphones, I miss the timbre that you get with certain instruments. Percussions, violins, and acoustic/ classical guitars in particular. I'm really into classical guitar actually: highly "detailed" headphones seem to miss the nice overtones that I get when I play or listen to a performance. With a detailed headphone, it's more like you're on top of the instrument instead of sitting back a bit. What is more "real"? Depends on the music, the way it was mixed, what system you use, and what headphone you like.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif I see you use the silver dragons on the hd650. They without a doubt will reveal more detail compared to the stock cable. It could be that the smearing isn't as apperent with the silver dragons. Silver cables in general have more refined edges compared to copper cables, it is in the outer edges smearing is heard, can be detected. |
As shocking as it might seem.....before I had the silver dragons, my HD650s had stock cables
Gurra1980
1000+ Head-Fier
Quote:
Yeah I also like to look at those graphs, and they can give you a little picture about how a headphone sounds, but it is very hard to do great headphone measurements because they sits so close to the ear drum, so everyone will hear different. The sound will not be transported through the air as with speakers, you can't adjust the distance between the headphones and you as you can with speakers, therefor a flat freq on speakers is almost always more correct.
To me the graphs of the hd-650 is quite spot on though, with big dips in the treble that takes away the treble texture of for example female vocalists and violins and I guess this gives them the fat, smeard, veiled, call it what you like sound (For the record I don't hear this smear in the natural sounds around me, so yes they are truly colored). Remember that this is in my opinion, to my ears and I just write what I hear, this is not a flaw it's the carracteristics of the HD-650, which is my second favorite headphone, I like something in between the little to smooth HD650 and the trebly (is that a real word?
) Beyers, Grados.
| Originally Posted by esuko /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hello Gurra1980 HD650 realy colored headphone? Coloration usually is a spike in frequency or in distortion response. Changing tone of particular instrument or voice affected by the problem region. Looking HD650 response graphs from Headroom you do not find either. Actually HD650 is well behaved headphone and it's frequency response imitates quite well total radiation response of a speaker in a room. Most recording engineers mix music for speaker listening and HD650 has a nice frequency response that in mind. If someone has insight to this HD650 coloration please do not hesitate to response. |
Yeah I also like to look at those graphs, and they can give you a little picture about how a headphone sounds, but it is very hard to do great headphone measurements because they sits so close to the ear drum, so everyone will hear different. The sound will not be transported through the air as with speakers, you can't adjust the distance between the headphones and you as you can with speakers, therefor a flat freq on speakers is almost always more correct.
To me the graphs of the hd-650 is quite spot on though, with big dips in the treble that takes away the treble texture of for example female vocalists and violins and I guess this gives them the fat, smeard, veiled, call it what you like sound (For the record I don't hear this smear in the natural sounds around me, so yes they are truly colored). Remember that this is in my opinion, to my ears and I just write what I hear, this is not a flaw it's the carracteristics of the HD-650, which is my second favorite headphone, I like something in between the little to smooth HD650 and the trebly (is that a real word?
) Beyers, Grados.
Davesrose
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Quote:
It is true, from my understanding, that it's hard to measure out the upper frequencies of a headphone. However, the extreme upper frequency dips that most headphones have are well above most fundamental notes. No one is listening to pipe organ music here are they?
When we start getting past the middle range, it's more and more harmonics....and hp manufacturers are adjusting FR to attenuate and sound less flat (so they are more acoustically real).
Here's the ranges of typical singers:
Soprano (240 - 1170 Hz)
Mezzo-soprano (220 - 900 Hz)
Contralto (130 - 700 Hz)
Tenor (130 - 440 Hz)
Baritone (110 - 350 Hz)
Bass (80 - 330 Hz)
Well I think it's a matter of preference and hearing when it comes to headphones. Everyone's ear canals are different, so HRTF is different. Some feel that the HD650s have enough detail, while others don't. No point getting an ideal system or cable for the HD650 if you're looking for another sound signature.
| Originally Posted by Gurra1980 /img/forum/go_quote.gif To me the graphs of the hd-650 is quite spot on though, with big dips in the treble that takes away the treble texture of for example female vocalists and violins and I guess this gives them the fat, smeard, veiled, call it what you like sound (For the record I don't hear this smear in the natural sounds around me, so yes they are truly colored). |
It is true, from my understanding, that it's hard to measure out the upper frequencies of a headphone. However, the extreme upper frequency dips that most headphones have are well above most fundamental notes. No one is listening to pipe organ music here are they?
Here's the ranges of typical singers:
Soprano (240 - 1170 Hz)
Mezzo-soprano (220 - 900 Hz)
Contralto (130 - 700 Hz)
Tenor (130 - 440 Hz)
Baritone (110 - 350 Hz)
Bass (80 - 330 Hz)
Well I think it's a matter of preference and hearing when it comes to headphones. Everyone's ear canals are different, so HRTF is different. Some feel that the HD650s have enough detail, while others don't. No point getting an ideal system or cable for the HD650 if you're looking for another sound signature.
tourmaline
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Quote:
According to the experts the dips are on purpose. To mimic the way we listen to speakers/speaker sound.
| Originally Posted by Gurra1980 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah I also like to look at those graphs, and they can give you a little picture about how a headphone sounds, but it is very hard to do great headphone measurements because they sits so close to the ear drum, so everyone will hear different. The sound will not be transported through the air as with speakers, you can't adjust the distance between the headphones and you as you can with speakers, therefor a flat freq on speakers is almost always more correct. To me the graphs of the hd-650 is quite spot on though, with big dips in the treble that takes away the treble texture of for example female vocalists and violins and I guess this gives them the fat, smeard, veiled, call it what you like sound (For the record I don't hear this smear in the natural sounds around me, so yes they are truly colored). Remember that this is in my opinion, to my ears and I just write what I hear, this is not a flaw it's the carracteristics of the HD-650, which is my second favorite headphone, I like something in between the little to smooth HD650 and the trebly (is that a real word? ) Beyers, Grados. |
According to the experts the dips are on purpose. To mimic the way we listen to speakers/speaker sound.
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