[holden4th]

I've had these for two weeks now and for most of that time I've been somewhat unimpressed. Lack of sound stage, flabby bass, good mids, rolled off highs - all very ordinary. But after some decent pink noise sessions and continuous tracks via Spotify I've put some hours into them. Probably around 50 hours and I'm hearing changes. To avoid the placebo affect I've also used my other cans (HD580, Flare R2A, Flare Gold) to try and maintain perspective. At this point in time, I'm leaning towards the burn in theory. I think that there is more improvement to be gained and I'll report back in a couple of more weeks. I took notes about my initial impressions so I didn't lose track of what I heard at the beginning. I've kept that going.

One thing that amuses me reading reviews is the talk about astounding clarity/bass/soundstage/blah, blah. This from people who've never heard a headphone sonically superior to the 650s. As long as they are happy with what they are hearing that's all that matters.

 

[smc1982]

Keep going. I found the 300 hour mark was pretty bang on.
An update on my side, I'm using a little dot Mk 2 and I've put some Voshkod 6ZH1P-EV Rocket Logo gold-platinum grid driver tubes in it and burned them in for 120 hours and oh my god, I can't even begin to describe how beautiful this set up sounds now. The depth perception and 3D imaging sounds so real it feels like you can reach out and touch the sound. It's incredible, I couldn't be happier.

 

[SilverEars]

I've had these for two weeks now and for most of that time I've been somewhat unimpressed. Lack of sound stage, flabby bass, good mids, rolled off highs - all very ordinary. But after some decent pink noise sessions and continuous tracks via Spotify I've put some hours into them. Probably around 50 hours and I'm hearing changes. To avoid the placebo affect I've also used my other cans (HD580, Flare R2A, Flare Gold) to try and maintain perspective. At this point in time, I'm leaning towards the burn in theory. I think that there is more improvement to be gained and I'll report back in a couple of more weeks. I took notes about my initial impressions so I didn't lose track of what I heard at the beginning. I've kept that going.

One thing that amuses me reading reviews is the talk about astounding clarity/bass/soundstage/blah, blah. This from people who've never heard a headphone sonically superior to the 650s. As long as they are happy with what they are hearing that's all that matters.

I can assure you with the HD650 it's not driver burn-in. I know for sure your auditory system gets adjusted. Not many headphones have similar response as HD650 with it's mids and upper-mids response. Most likely people are coming from more treble raise and/or bassier iem/headphone.

I remember when I first got the HD650, and it was along side AKG K701 and DT880. As a fairly newbie ear I thought DT880 was the norm in treble, but I listened to 650 for a week, and my ears adjusted and at a certain point I start to appeciate it more than the other two. And then K701 came off bright and lean, DT880 too bright. I kept the HD650.

As you cycle through more gear you will start to experience this. Your ears adjust to a particular headphone, and some relatively different enough will sound more different when you switch over and your ears will eventually adjust over time. It's easy for people to associate that with 'burn-in,' but given our auditory system is tied to our brain amd our brain adjusts, we cannot say driver went through burn-in unless we had real evidance. Simply, our brain isn't reliable to tell us if the driver went through burn-in.

This is also the reason for 'new toy syndrome.'

 

[smc1982]

I do agree that new kit does take time to get used to. However, my argument against this being the main reason for experiencing this phenomenon is that firstly, if it was just about getting used to the different frequency response, it would take you a long time to get used to a sound when the eq was changed for example. When you change eq or listen to the same piece of music on a different system, you get used to it pretty quickly in some cases a few songs of an album. You can try it by giving a song a U shaped eq curve so it all sounds exciting then drop back to flat. For a short while it sounds dull and lifeless but you soon acclimatise to it and it sounds normal pretty quickly.

Also, from my experience, the burn in phenominon (or whatever you want to call it) is none linear. My HD650s sounded pretty good out of he the box with great instrument seperation, depth of soundstage and 3D imaging. then, after a period of about 30-50 hours, they seemed to close up and become a narrow band of messy noise. I did note that the frequency response didn't change. The highs, mids and bass didn't change at all but the way the information was organised did and did drastically.

Oddly, while they were in this state, over the course of 5 minutes, they opened up so the perceived soundstage was deep and I could clearly define the position of every instrument then they closed up again. Was a weird experience and was so extereme I am about as sure as I can be that this wasn't a trick of the mind or my head moving etc.

The arguments against headphone burn in seem to centre on changes in frequency or getting used to the new frequency responses of different headphones. My argument is it has nothing to do with frequency, more to do with how the headphones present the information that is there. I really want to know if there is a way to scientifically measure soundstage depth perception, instrument separation and placement, 3D imaging as opposed to frequency response and distorition which seems to be the measurments people use to test headphones and discredit burn in.

I am sure that getting used to the way a new pair of headphones sound, the pads breaking in do make a big difference. But this was just too big of a change for it to be something as simple and also, I have listened to other peoples stereos and headphones and never had to wait 300 hours to be able to enjoy them, you can hear differences but you can hear that they are great from the word go.

 

[SilverEars]

I do agree that new kit does take time to get used to. However, my argument against this being the main reason for experiencing this phenomenon is that firstly, if it was just about getting used to the different frequency response, it would take you a long time to get used to a sound when the eq was changed for example. When you change eq or listen to the same piece of music on a different system, you get used to it pretty quickly in some cases a few songs of an album. You can try it by giving a song a U shaped eq curve so it all sounds exciting then drop back to flat. For a short while it sounds dull and lifeless but you soon acclimatise to it and it sounds normal pretty quickly.

Also, from my experience, the burn in phenominon (or whatever you want to call it) is none linear. My HD650s sounded pretty good out of he the box with great instrument seperation, depth of soundstage and 3D imaging. then, after a period of about 30-50 hours, they seemed to close up and become a narrow band of messy noise. I did note that the frequency response didn't change. The highs, mids and bass didn't change at all but the way the information was organised did and did drastically.

Oddly, while they were in this state, over the course of 5 minutes, they opened up so the perceived soundstage was deep and I could clearly define the position of every instrument then they closed up again. Was a weird experience and was so extereme I am about as sure as I can be that this wasn't a trick of the mind or my head moving etc.

The arguments against headphone burn in seem to centre on changes in frequency or getting used to the new frequency responses of different headphones. My argument is it has nothing to do with frequency, more to do with how the headphones present the information that is there. I really want to know if there is a way to scientifically measure soundstage depth perception, instrument separation and placement, 3D imaging as opposed to frequency response and distorition which seems to be the measurments people use to test headphones and discredit burn in.

I am sure that getting used to the way a new pair of headphones sound, the pads breaking in do make a big difference. But this was just too big of a change for it to be something as simple and also, I have listened to other peoples stereos and headphones and never had to wait 300 hours to be able to enjoy them, you can hear differences but you can hear that they are great from the word go.

The best way to test is, not listen to it for 300 hours of burn-in, and listen to it for the first time. If you are listening to it during, that would defeat the purpose of isolating brain burn-in.

I know it seems plausible in terms of stuff outside of frequency response, but those other stuff are perception of the brain as well, and they are suspetable to perceptual adjustment believ it or not.

 

[HipHopScribe]

I've had these for two weeks now and for most of that time I've been somewhat unimpressed. Lack of sound stage, flabby bass, good mids, rolled off highs - all very ordinary. But after some decent pink noise sessions and continuous tracks via Spotify I've put some hours into them. Probably around 50 hours and I'm hearing changes. To avoid the placebo affect I've also used my other cans (HD580, Flare R2A, Flare Gold) to try and maintain perspective. At this point in time, I'm leaning towards the burn in theory. I think that there is more improvement to be gained and I'll report back in a couple of more weeks. I took notes about my initial impressions so I didn't lose track of what I heard at the beginning. I've kept that going.

One thing that amuses me reading reviews is the talk about astounding clarity/bass/soundstage/blah, blah. This from people who've never heard a headphone sonically superior to the 650s. As long as they are happy with what they are hearing that's all that matters.

You can't "avoid the placebo affect" like that. Taking notes also isn't gonna matter because our perceptions aren't reliable in the first place. If you're really hearing changes at all it's probably the pads breaking in, other than that it's more likely your perceptions are just changing over time and the headphones are remaining the same. I know audiophiles love to think they have golden ears and they can somehow perceive sound more like a piece of measuring equipment than like a human being, but we're all only human and we're all subject to the same psychological effects in this area.

 

[HipHopScribe]

The best way to test is, not listen to it for 300 hours of burn-in, and listen to it for the first time. If you are listening to it during, that would defeat the purpose of isolating brain burn-in.

Even doing that isn't gonna tell you anything really, our brains are not good enough at precisely remembering sounds to make a worthwhile comparison 300 hours apart

 

[SilverEars]

You can't "avoid the placebo affect" like that. Taking notes also isn't gonna matter because our perceptions aren't reliable in the first place. If you're really hearing changes at all it's probably the pads breaking in, other than that it's more likely your perceptions are just changing over time and the headphones are remaining the same. I know audiophiles love to think they have golden ears and they can somehow perceive sound more like a piece of measuring equipment than like a human being, but we're all only human and we're all subject to the same psychological effects in this area.

I think it's easy for people to think what they percive are not construct of the brain, but a transparency. Our brain us involved in reconstruction of what we sense. It's difficult to understand this as we lived with our perceptions as long as our existance.

 

[smc1982]

All valid responses. I agree our brains and perception aren't perfect and it essentially decodes information which we perceive as senses and I am sure there is a lot of that going on to a degree. However, why does this phenomenon only seem to happen on brand new headphones? I listened to a friends pair of Grados a year or so ago and while they did seem a little harsh and lively, I could clearly hear the separation of instruments etc. If your brain takes that long to adapt to a new piece of equipment then that would be universal with everything from headphones to speakers and on every single one of them
i could be wrong but the experience i had wasn't subtle, i'm not a trained sound engineer but I know what I like and hear things I like without waiting 300 hours to like it.

 

[HipHopScribe]

All valid responses. I agree our brains and perception aren't perfect and it essentially decodes information which we perceive as senses and I am sure there is a lot of that going on to a degree. However, why does this phenomenon only seem to happen on brand new headphones? I listened to a friends pair of Grados a year or so ago and while they did seem a little harsh and lively, I could clearly hear the separation of instruments etc. If your brain takes that long to adapt to a new piece of equipment then that would be universal with everything from headphones to speakers and on every single one of them
i could be wrong but the experience i had wasn't subtle, i'm not a trained sound engineer but I know what I like and hear things I like without waiting 300 hours to like it.

Everyone's brain is adapting all the time and our perceptions are always subject to change. Some days I sit at my desk and love listening to my Fidelio X1s, other days their boomy, muddy midbass annoys me and I'm in the mood for my HP50s, even with the same music. But I don't think it's because my X1s have "burned-out" and suddenly sound different. My perceptions are different, not the headphones.

Attributing changing perceptions to "burn-in" is not universal because not everyone assumes that their headphones are gonna need burn-in, not everyone's perception of a headphone varies much over time, and not everyone finds a flaw or shortcoming the first time they listen to their equipment that needs to be fixed with burn-in. There are people on here who claim burn-in is a thing with every single piece of equipment, headphones, amps, dacs, even cables, so it's not just a thing with headphones, and all of those people are completely convinced it's real and their experiences aren't subtle or perception-based. But someone being really convinced of something doesn't make it true.

In the end, I could be wrong and burn-in for headphones is real, but the evidence offered for it is so poor, anecdotal and subjective that I'm comfortable being a skeptic about it.

 

[340519]

Everyone's brain is adapting all the time and our perceptions are always subject to change. Some days I sit at my desk and love listening to my Fidelio X1s, other days their boomy, muddy midbass annoys me and I'm in the mood for my HP50s, even with the same music. But I don't think it's because my X1s have "burned-out" and suddenly sound different. My perceptions are different, not the headphones.

Attributing changing perceptions to "burn-in" is not universal because not everyone assumes that their headphones are gonna need burn-in, not everyone's perception of a headphone varies much over time, and not everyone finds a flaw or shortcoming the first time they listen to their equipment that needs to be fixed with burn-in. There are people on here who claim burn-in is a thing with every single piece of equipment, headphones, amps, dacs, even cables, so it's not just a thing with headphones, and all of those people are completely convinced it's real and their experiences aren't subtle or perception-based. But someone being really convinced of something doesn't make it true.

In the end, I could be wrong and burn-in for headphones is real, but the evidence offered for it is so poor, anecdotal and subjective that I'm comfortable being a skeptic about it.

I agree and I would have to side with the burn in skepticism.

I just bought new 660s from sennheiser that are in route so I guess I'll see how they sound out of the box.

 

[SilverEars]

I agree and I would have to side with the burn in skepticism.

I just bought new 660s from sennheiser that are in route so I guess I'll see how they sound out of the box.

For some reason, out of the box, I don't get so impressed with Senheisers. It takes me time to get used to the response I believe, and once I do, other headphones beware! Others will sound different thence forth onwards. This is a common occurrence I'm sure we all have experienced.

As far as gettting used to sound, our brain is very good at doing this, trying to correct our perceptions to work with our body. For example, a person that has been blind all their life will not have the same vision experience when seeing for the first time. It takes time for the brain to adjust. Same for glasses. You get the fishbowl effect from the lenses, and after awhile you don't notice it. This is what I mean by adjustment, and we don't notice the adjustment phase until something dawns on us to pay attention to a particularity.

 

[340519]

For some reason, out of the box, I don't get so impressed with Senheisers. It takes me time to get used to the response I believe, and once I do, other headphones beware! Others will sound different thence forth onwards. This is a common occurrence I'm sure we all have experienced.

As far as gettting used to sound, our brain is very good at doing this, trying to correct our perceptions to work with our body. For example, a person that has been blind all their life will not have the same vision experience when seeing for the first time. It takes time for the brain to adjust. Same for glasses. You get the fishbowl effect from the lenses, and after awhile you don't notice it. This is what I mean by adjustment, and we don't notice the adjustment phase until something dawns on us to pay attention to a particularity.

I enjoyed the 800 and S, but not enough to keep them. Perhaps too clinical. I'm looking forward to the 660s for emotional engagement, well I hope anyway.

 

[SilverEars]

I enjoyed the 800 and S, but not enough to keep them. Perhaps too clinical. I'm looking forward to the 660s for emotional engagement, well I hope anyway.

I used to really dislike those headphones, but I got to like it and it takes amps that can improve it's reponse to be apprciative. Other than that, it will sound upper-mids recessed with not much bass with treble emphasis. It's rare to find an amp that can balance it out and make the treble not sound so piercing. I didn't put nearly as much effort or paid so much to a headphone as the HD800(S) with other headphones (and it's not fair). I really disliked it when I first heard it. I love how large the sound stage can get however. If you can get it to sound right, it's a very good headphone IMO. You can actually get bass, but most amp trial will not get the bass up. So, most people will not experience good sound out of it. And I forgot, HD800(S) is head shape dependent as well, as the shape of the way it seal sucks, so that will vary the bass response as well.

I can list a crap ton of amps that will fail at helping HD800S sound good. It really doesn't matter on price either. I mean you can hook it up to Chord DAVE, and it will not sound that great.

Statistically, the headphone sounds the way it does. It makes more sense to say the amp colored it's sound to improve it. How can I easily recommend such headphone if this is the case?

 

[340519]

I used to really dislike those headphones, but I got to like it and it takes amps that can improve it's reponse to be apprciative. Other than that, it will sound upper-mids recessed with not much bass with treble emphasis. It's rare to find an amp that can balance it out and make the treble not sound so piercing. I didn't put nearly as much effort or paid so much to a headphone as the HD800(S) with other headphones (and it's not fair). I really disliked it when I first heard it. I love how large the sound stage can get however. If you can get it to sound right, it's a very good headphone IMO. You can actually get bass, but most amp trial will not get the bass up. So, most people will not experience good sound out of it. And I forgot, HD800(S) is head shape dependent as well, as the shape of the way it seal sucks, so that will vary the bass response as well.

I had the 800S paired with a bryston bha1, so plenty of power from an incredible amplifier. It's my end game amp. I just love bryston gear as it is soooooo well built with a 20 year warranty.