[plainsong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by slwiser /img/forum/go_quote.gif plainsong provides simple reason to the issue. A budget forum probably would work. I am working on a budget set right now...compared with my home desktop setup. Maybe not budget but mini in size. Maybe we need a mini- forum as well.

Did you HAVE to quote me before I could notice my grammar mistakes? I'm a horrible typist.

I'm just imagining what happens when trying to decide - is the HD650 hi-fi? I know some who'd say no, and then the sparks would fly, and that's just one set of cans. Meanwhile, doesn't everyone have an idea of what budget-fi is? Sure we could refine the definition, but visions of ms-1's and ksc-75's dance in your head at the thought.

 

[Fitz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by braillediver /img/forum/go_quote.gif He's not interested in the high end so I'd ask why he even bothered to post in this thread? This is why it would be desirable to have a friendly open forum to discuss the high end. Mitch

I thought the OP was at least somewhat interested in why there was less interest in discussing the high end nowadays, so I decided to share my own particular reasons. I was apparently mistaken, so I do apologize, and if it helps I'll delete the "offending" post if so desired.

And I'm still here reading the thread, so I'd let him (the quoted one) know that he can ask me things directly.

 

[slwiser]

Plainsong

Believe me your not the worst at grammar....I am. That is why I have to keep editing my posts after I post them. I can correct this issue very easily.

 

[cotdt]

there's still plenty of discussion on the mid-end $200-$500 headphones. the thing about these headphones is that many beleive that certain mid-end headphones are just as good as the expensive stuff. the high-end is different, but not neccesarily better. i think that's the reason why there is less and less discussion on the high end. the mid-end is crowding out the high end.

The high end is mainly electrostatics and the K1000. The problem with these is that most ordinary people prefer dynamic headphones over electrostatics, and the K1000 leaks too much sound destroying the very purpose of headphones.

There's the Sony's and the new Edition 9s. The Sony's are almost impossible to obtain, so that's why there's very little discussion on them. There are indeed some discussion on the Edition 9s right now, so that's an exception. It shows that the high price is not the main issue. Many of us have the money to buy expensive headphones, but would rather spend it on a better amp and source.

The high end phones also tend to be very eccentric and euphoric. It will work with some songs but not so well with others. My friend actually prefers the cheap $30 Koss headphone over the GS1000s and a certain other very expensive headphones. Many simply don't like that eccentric sound signature and just want good reproduction. Actually I think the mid-end headphones are more accurate than the high end.

The AKG K701, Senns, Beyers, and Ultrasones are where it's at right now.

 

[plainsong]

I don't know who will read this thread, but the problem is, this isn't the only way high-end headphone audio is defined. Not everything in that 200-500 USD category scales up in the same way, and there is the problem right there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif there's still plenty of discussion on the mid-end $200-$500 headphones. the thing about these headphones is that many beleive that certain mid-end headphones are just as good as the expensive stuff. the high-end is different, but not neccesarily better. i think that's the reason why there is less and less discussion on the high end. the mid-end is crowding out the high end. The high end is mainly electrostatics and the K1000. The problem with these is that most ordinary people prefer dynamic headphones over electrostatics, and the K1000 leaks too much sound destroying the very purpose of headphones. There's the Sony's and the new Edition 9s. The Sony's are almost impossible to obtain, so that's why there's very little discussion on them. There are indeed some discussion on the Edition 9s right now, so that's an exception. It shows that the high price is not the main issue. Many of us have the money to buy expensive headphones, but would rather spend it on a better amp and source. The AKG K701, Senns, Beyers, and Ultrasones are where it's at right now.

 

[Akathriel]

Quote:

The high end is mainly electrostatics and the K1000. The problem with these is that most ordinary people prefer dynamic headphones over electrostatics, and the K1000 leaks too much sound destroying the very purpose of headphones.

???? There are two 1000 dollar+ electrostatics here that are highly regarded (and a third that has been in the spotlight more recently) while there are at least 5 or 6 dynamics in this tier.

There's less discussion of it because A: demographics have changed as markl stated.

b:high end headphones are dead. THe market won't support them. Its been 3 years (?) since the last statement AT even though they had a major anniversary last year. It took them forever to sell all 550 L3000s and they won't do that again. The sony Qualia 010 was a total flop due to poor design even if it had the performance, they could not sell 200. K1000s have been discontinued because they weren't selling well and theyre difficult to produce. Of course after they're discontinued they're Orpheus killers, and the greatest thing since sliced bread. The market simply will not support a 2k+ headphone anymore and I think its sad. Around the 1k mark, we've seen new introductions of the GS1000 and Ultrasone Editions, while both Sony and Sennheiser are rumored to release 1k headphones.

But the period of SOTA Cost no object headphones is, unfortunately, gone. Perhaps these newer 1k headphones will offer similar performance at a better price but who knows.

 

[mypasswordis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathriel /img/forum/go_quote.gif b:high end headphones are dead. THe market won't support them. Its been 3 years (?) since the last statement AT even though they had a major anniversary last year. It took them forever to sell all 550 L3000s and they won't do that again. The sony Qualia 010 was a total flop due to poor design even if it had the performance, they could not sell 200. K1000s have been discontinued because they weren't selling well and theyre difficult to produce. Of course after they're discontinued they're Orpheus killers, and the greatest thing since sliced bread. The market simply will not support a 2k+ headphone anymore and I think its sad. Around the 1k mark, we've seen new introductions of the GS1000 and Ultrasone Editions, while both Sony and Sennheiser are rumored to release 1k headphones.

Interest in these high end phones has exploded and if these companies were to produce more, they'd probably be selling like proverbial hotcakes. I still say there's less discussion of high end headphones because of ... well, lack of high end phones, and not because of the young demographic, which we've seen to be quite capable of affording said high end phones, in some cases. There are only so many of them in the world, and they sure aren't moving from owner to owner very often.

 

[cotdt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathriel /img/forum/go_quote.gif ???? There are two 1000 dollar+ electrostatics here that are highly regarded (and a third that has been in the spotlight more recently) while there are at least 5 or 6 dynamics in this tier. There's less discussion of it because A: demographics have changed as markl stated. b:high end headphones are dead. THe market won't support them. Its been 3 years (?) since the last statement AT even though they had a major anniversary last year. It took them forever to sell all 550 L3000s and they won't do that again. The sony Qualia 010 was a total flop due to poor design even if it had the performance, they could not sell 200. K1000s have been discontinued because they weren't selling well and theyre difficult to produce. Of course after they're discontinued they're Orpheus killers, and the greatest thing since sliced bread. The market simply will not support a 2k+ headphone anymore and I think its sad. Around the 1k mark, we've seen new introductions of the GS1000 and Ultrasone Editions, while both Sony and Sennheiser are rumored to release 1k headphones. But the period of SOTA Cost no object headphones is, unfortunately, gone. Perhaps these newer 1k headphones will offer similar performance at a better price but who knows.

The fact that people don't buy them anymore is a symptom of the true problem, which is that people don't want them even if they were sold for much cheaper. A couple years ago you could buy a brand new K1000 for $399 and nobody wanted them. Now they are $1200 used and all of a sudden everyone wants them since now there is more hype. But when you compare the high end headphones side by side with a mid-end headphone like the AKG K701, you'd be hard-pressed to say which is better. Many I know who have heard both the K701 and the K1000 actually prefer the K701 for example. I haven't heard all the other high end headphones so I can't comment, but I suspect something similar is happening, in that they are different but not better. The expensive phones are reported to have too many flaws. If sound quality was really good I'm sure more people would buy them. $2000 for a headphone isn't too bad when you have young people buying Ferraris.

 

[fyrfytrhoges]

in one word, yes....

this place used to be full of high end headphone people, i now see much more discussion of portable cd players and as the op said, "budget" headphones.

this is why i rarely, if ever read the headphone, source, amp, and cable forums anymore. before the flames start, which by the way, dont bother me at all, im used to it, i understand this forum has become younger and younger by the day. in the "old days" the forum seemed to have older members with obviously more cash to spend.....

but whatever makes this site more $$$$$, and gets more traffic, not a problem with me, because like i said, i rarely read the other forums anymore. im pretty much done. i found stax which is all anyone could ever ask for, plus i found some great sources and amps. no need to put any more money into this insanity....

plus i found another forum which has a more "aged" base, hell, im old so thats where i go to talk to old people.....

i have no need to read threads discussing who would win a fight between two different comic book characters, or what advice i should give some guy on rearrangeing his furniture, etc. etc. etc. i could go on all night about some of these threads.....

but to each his own, i guess this place will keep rollin' with the punches.

enjoy.....

 

[markl]

Quote:

Actually I think the mid-end headphones are more accurate than the high end.

There is a kind of reverse snobbery that goes on on Head-Fi. I observe some folks willing themselves to believe that all expensive phones, amps, sources, cables, etc. must be "colored" somehow or fake in some way, and that trickery is the "special sauce" that makes them cost so much (forget about build quality, design, etc.). You know to trick those dumb, easily-fooled auiophiles with more money than brains.

It is a nice story to tell oneself until the time comes when one can actually buy some of that stuff to enjoy, but that doesn't make it so.

It's the other way around, IMO. It's more likely that the high-end stuff, being built to a higher standard, will be more resolving and more true with less distortion and better dynamic range. It's a lot harder to fool someone who has years of experience listening to gear leading up to the purchase of that ultra-expensive piece. It can't get away with being hyped up or exaggerated.

Why are modern CDs compressed to death and smiley-faced EQ-ed to an sugary-sweet extreme? Sounds better to the dude on the street. In my mind its the cheap stuff aimed at them that's going to be hyped-sounding to catch the ear of the fickle and inexperienced. When you walk into Best Buy to look at TVs, they are all set on "kill"- brightest brights, sharpest focus, with a blue tint. They tweak it out at the factory to create the standard factory settings so they jump out at you when you stare at the wall of TVs. But try watching it that way over time-- yuck!

They do the same thing with consumer speakers-- make them aggressive,bass-heavy, sharp sizzly highs so they stand out on the wall of speakers. Yuck!

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsjong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah, but will we all notice the differences significantly from other top-end headphones? Probably not. And especially to actually build up a rig costing thousands to actually enjoy them could be another reason.

Just to clarify.. If I had 2,000-4,000 I wouldn't buy the R10.. For that I could get a DAC1/Single power Amp/AKG 1000.. Although, if I had a 6 figure income I'd easily spend the money to get the R10..

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plainsong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well yes and no. When I went to the local audio store, I had in mind a simple experiment: to see how far the price of an ipod would go. The answer was pretty far, sound quality-wise. If someone can spend 1200 bucks on an amp and dac for their ipod, they can afford 500 bucks or less for a decent mid-fi cdp. But I noticed the change in culture when I once suggested over IM to one young head-fier that I would upgrade my source before the amp in the next roung of upgrades. It's not as sexy I guess. I think instead of having a High-end forum, there should instead be a Budget-fi forum. Because to define what hi-fi is will be to start the flame wars. Meanwhile it's easy to for everyone to be interested in the advancements in Budget-fi gear. It's not so much an elitist thing around here. Many of the hi-fiers will be avid Budget-fi fans as well. And if there was such a thing, it should be made clear that the newbie path of enlightenment starts there.

Source is the most important.. I doubt a hi end forum would work.. Many people would see it as the Haves Vs the have nots.. & see many people who become defensive & see it as a way to 'brag' about ultra expensive audio gear.. The jealous factor will also come into play.. & see a lot of flaming post.. I still want a Hi End forum.. I want to hear about the 'best' in headphones..

 

[J-Pak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif there's still plenty of discussion on the mid-end $200-$500 headphones. the thing about these headphones is that many beleive that certain mid-end headphones are just as good as the expensive stuff. the high-end is different, but not neccesarily better. i think that's the reason why there is less and less discussion on the high end. the mid-end is crowding out the high end. The high end is mainly electrostatics and the K1000. The problem with these is that most ordinary people prefer dynamic headphones over electrostatics, and the K1000 leaks too much sound destroying the very purpose of headphones. There's the Sony's and the new Edition 9s. The Sony's are almost impossible to obtain, so that's why there's very little discussion on them. There are indeed some discussion on the Edition 9s right now, so that's an exception. It shows that the high price is not the main issue. Many of us have the money to buy expensive headphones, but would rather spend it on a better amp and source. The high end phones also tend to be very eccentric and euphoric. It will work with some songs but not so well with others. My friend actually prefers the cheap $30 Koss headphone over the GS1000s and a certain other very expensive headphones. Many simply don't like that eccentric sound signature and just want good reproduction. Actually I think the mid-end headphones are more accurate than the high end. The AKG K701, Senns, Beyers, and Ultrasones are where it's at right now.

So people who like electrostatics aren't ordinary

(do you ever step outside your fanboy bubble?)

High end tend to be eccentric or euphoric

I think the reason people like the HP-1000 and K1000 is because they aren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif The fact that people don't buy them anymore is a symptom of the true problem, which is that people don't want them even if they were sold for much cheaper. A couple years ago you could buy a brand new K1000 for $399 and nobody wanted them. Now they are $1200 used and all of a sudden everyone wants them since now there is more hype. But when you compare the high end headphones side by side with a mid-end headphone like the AKG K701, you'd be hard-pressed to say which is better. Many I know who have heard both the K701 and the K1000 actually prefer the K701 for example. I haven't heard all the other high end headphones so I can't comment, but I suspect something similar is happening, in that they are different but not better. The expensive phones are reported to have too many flaws. If sound quality was really good I'm sure more people would buy them. $2000 for a headphone isn't too bad when you have young people buying Ferraris.

The K1000 is difficult to drive. When they were so cheap no one knew about amps that had good synergy with them. No headphone amp was able to make them sound good.

Now more people are educated about speaker amps, and boutique amp manufacturers even have powerful headphone amps under $1000 that can drive them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fyrfytrhoges /img/forum/go_quote.gif in one word, yes.... this place used to be full of high end headphone people, i now see much more discussion of portable cd players and as the op said, "budget" headphones. this is why i rarely, if ever read the headphone, source, amp, and cable forums anymore. before the flames start, which by the way, dont bother me at all, im used to it, i understand this forum has become younger and younger by the day. in the "old days" the forum seemed to have older members with obviously more cash to spend..... but whatever makes this site more $$$$$, and gets more traffic, not a problem with me, because like i said, i rarely read the other forums anymore. im pretty much done. i found stax which is all anyone could ever ask for, plus i found some great sources and amps. no need to put any more money into this insanity.... plus i found another forum which has a more "aged" base, hell, im old so thats where i go to talk to old people..... i have no need to read threads discussing who would win a fight between two different comic book characters, or what advice i should give some guy on rearrangeing his furniture, etc. etc. etc. i could go on all night about some of these threads..... but to each his own, i guess this place will keep rollin' with the punches. enjoy.....

I assume you mean the Steve Hoffman forums. Great place, but almost no headphone discussion in the hardware forum.

 

[Akathriel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypasswordis /img/forum/go_quote.gif Interest in these high end phones has exploded and if these companies were to produce more, they'd probably be selling like proverbial hotcakes. I still say there's less discussion of high end headphones because of ... well, lack of high end phones, and not because of the young demographic, which we've seen to be quite capable of affording said high end phones, in some cases. There are only so many of them in the world, and they sure aren't moving from owner to owner very often.

I don't think this is true. For one the attitude here at head-fi is skewed and does not reflect the entire market for these headphones just a small portion of it. If the Qualia 010 was reintroduced today, do you really think they would sell like hotcakes? I doubt they would sell 50.

Oh btw, you probably live just a coupe miles from me. I live about a mile from the bethesda metro. If you ever want to come over and listen, let me know.

@Cotdt: I think you need to broaden your horizons. Have you ever heard any of the tier one headphones in a true highend rig? Considerign that you think they're all electrostatic I'm inclined to believe otherwise. I'm not being snobbish but if the k701 push has to permeate every thread, I'm not sure how you passed this judgment without hearing these phones or how you would do so with a 200 dollar dac behind it.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif there's still plenty of discussion on the mid-end $200-$500 headphones. the thing about these headphones is that many beleive that certain mid-end headphones are just as good as the expensive stuff. the high-end is different, but not neccesarily better. i think that's the reason why there is less and less discussion on the high end. the mid-end is crowding out the high end. The high end is mainly electrostatics and the K1000. The problem with these is that most ordinary people prefer dynamic headphones over electrostatics, and the K1000 leaks too much sound destroying the very purpose of headphones. There's the Sony's and the new Edition 9s. The Sony's are almost impossible to obtain, so that's why there's very little discussion on them. There are indeed some discussion on the Edition 9s right now, so that's an exception. It shows that the high price is not the main issue. Many of us have the money to buy expensive headphones, but would rather spend it on a better amp and source. The high end phones also tend to be very eccentric and euphoric. It will work with some songs but not so well with others. My friend actually prefers the cheap $30 Koss headphone over the GS1000s and a certain other very expensive headphones. Many simply don't like that eccentric sound signature and just want good reproduction. Actually I think the mid-end headphones are more accurate than the high end. The AKG K701, Senns, Beyers, and Ultrasones are where it's at right now.

Most people prefer Dynamic over electro's cause they are readily available.. & never even heard a Electro phone before. I never knew about Electros until I found this site.Dynamic headphones saturate the market.. They are in every electronics Brick & motor store..

to buy a pair of Electstats you need to buy over seas, & the choices are very limited, & get expensive quickly..