[kennyb123]

Do you have an answer to any of the questions I posed above?

Sure. I did a search for question marks and only found two questions from you.

"then how do we explain DSD sounding different?" Because something about it is different. I can't think of a DAC on which DSD doesn't sound different from PCM. I think it's partly due to noise and partly due differences in how well each format preserves transient information. The experts don't even agree on this so why in the world would should we expect amateurs to be able get our heads around this? I think it would take a very solid understanding of how we our hearing works to understand what's important here.

"Does the process of PCM to DSD conversion have some inherent flaws that alters the original data or does the fact that the DAC is working with already-broken-down data have an effect on what happens inside the DAC, despite the main stages of its conversion seemingly being almost identical (I'm saying "almost" due to PCM de-emphasis)?" I have no clue. The flaws can be much greater upstream though. A noisy server or a noisy network screw things up far worse.

 

[Mista Lova Lova]

Sure. I did a search for question marks and only found two questions from you.

"then how do we explain DSD sounding different?" Because something about it is different. I can't think of a DAC on which DSD doesn't sound different from PCM. I think it's partly due to noise and partly due differences in how well each format preserves transient information. The experts don't even agree on this so why in the world would should we expect amateurs to be able get our heads around this? I think it would take a very solid understanding of how we our hearing works to understand what's important here.

"Does the process of PCM to DSD conversion have some inherent flaws that alters the original data or does the fact that the DAC is working with already-broken-down data have an effect on what happens inside the DAC, despite the main stages of its conversion seemingly being almost identical (I'm saying "almost" due to PCM de-emphasis)?" I have no clue. The flaws can be much greater upstream though. A noisy server or a noisy network screw things up far worse.

Cool, we're back to discussing the actual issues that were crucial to understanding where both of us were coming from.

In light of my posts and your responses, would you consider it fair to say that we do not fully understand the differences between PCM and DSD (and more specifically - how they are processed internally by DACs) and as such the perceived differences between each format's sound should be treated as a matter of individual preference rather than a categorical statement that one is clearly more accurate than the other?

I had personally been hoping to find some data that would either confirm or debunk my initial understanding of the subject (which was - DSD is better for Delta Sigma and PCM for R2R) but the research I have done to date (with some further research inspired by our discussion) has provided no conclusive answer to that.

 

[kennyb123]

I had personally been hoping to find some data that would either confirm or debunk my initial understanding of the subject (which was - DSD is better for Delta Sigma and PCM for R2R) but the research I have done to date (with some further research inspired by our discussion) has provided no conclusive answer to that.

You aren’t going to find it. Or if you do, it will be agenda-driven. The good news for us normal people is that sweeping generalizations rarely ever apply in the real world. Implementation matters far more.

I once had the opportunity to audition a DSD DAC. It was a $6500 model from Playback Designs. At the time my main DAC was a very humble Chord Mojo, that retailed at the time for around $650. What I heard astonished me.

Tonally it was no contest. The PD DAC produced the richest tones in the most colorful way. The Mojo didn’t even come close.

As far as timing, PRAT, and liveliness again it was no contest. The inexpensive Mojo slaughtered the far more expensive DAC. The PD drained all the excitement from the music by harming how the stopping and starting of notes was perceived. You could not have paid me to use that DAC.

I mention this only because I think those who gravitate to DSD insensitive to timing but extra-sensitive to tonality. Those who gravitate towards PCM or to delta-sigma DACs may be more balanced in their preferences. Of course now I am making a generalization but I think the fact that ESS DACs are so popular bears that out.

 

[Mista Lova Lova]

I mention this only because I think those who gravitate to DSD insensitive to timing but extra-sensitive to tonality. Those who gravitate towards PCM or to delta-sigma DACs may be more balanced in their preferences. Of course now I am making a generalization but I think the fact that ESS DACs are so popular bears that out.

I think that you may be on to something there. I perceive PCM to be more punchy, more vivid, more "direct" (which I guess would align with the notion of timing) whilst DSD appears to be more natural/life-like sounding (which would align with the notion of "tonality"). Perhaps these two formats are (whatever the technical reason for that may be - some discussions go very deep into that and it's well beyond my understanding) putting accents on different aspects of sound presentation.

Individual preferences will dictate which format appears more "balanced". I think we can agree on that.

And another thing that I am certain we can agree on - whatever the differences in our preferences and perception may be, we are both able to reach the desired outcome using the Gustard X26 Pro which just goes to show that it is a hell of a DAC.

 

[kennyb123]

And another thing that I am certain we can agree on - whatever the differences in our preferences and perception may be, we are both able to reach the desired outcome using the Gustard X26 Pro which just goes to show that it is a hell of a DAC.

Yay we agree!

 

[Mista Lova Lova]

 

[tedacura1]

I thoroughly enjoyed the discussion, debate, and conclusion between @kennyb123 and @Mista Lova Lova. I am always learning from these posts and always get a better understanding of this hobby. I am now 3 years into this hobby and enjoying every minute of it. Thanks again to the many posters and happy listening.

 

[milkdudd]

Cool - what cables?

Couple of months ago I upgraded my balanced interconnects to DH Labs Revelation with silver conductors. Both dac to preamp and preamp to poweramp. To my ears the SQ improvement was at least as big as going to a much better dac has been in the past. I should mention this is mostly listening to a stereo speaker system rather than headphone listening

 

[Frwkie]

Dear all, I want to connect an Oppo CDT101ci to my X26pro DAC for CD and SACD playback. I'm new to digital interlinks (and the X26pro). Right now, I'm still figuring out if the HDMI to I2S route is worth it. In the mean time, any thoughts on optical vs coax connection to the X26pro? For now I've a cheap toslink connection but would expect a more significant impact on sound quality using the external DAC. Should I go for a better toslink or would coax bring more improvement? Thanks!

 

[taipan254]

Dear all, I want to connect an Oppo CDT101ci to my X26pro DAC for CD and SACD playback. I'm new to digital interlinks (and the X26pro). Right now, I'm still figuring out if the HDMI to I2S route is worth it. In the mean time, any thoughts on optical vs coax connection to the X26pro? For now I've a cheap toslink connection but would expect a more significant impact on sound quality using the external DAC. Should I go for a better toslink or would coax bring more improvement? Thanks!

My 2-cents: High Quality TOSLINK cables are far cheaper than high quality SPDIF cables. I'd try this out first and see if you like it. Focus on glass TOSLINK cables if this version is not available in NL. Of course, some say there is extra processing noise with TOSLINK but frankly I'm not sure I hear it. Prior to my adventures in oversampling, I preferred using optical to my nordost blue heaven digital leif SPDIF cable.

As for I2S - I am unsure if there is a way to get your digital audio data from your CD / SACD transport to the X26Pro via I2S. I'm happy to be wrong though.

 

[milkdudd]

SACD at least in multi-channel format can only be output from your player over HDMI. Perhaps SACD 2 channel is different but I don't think so. What I do know is you can't run an HDMI cable from a SACD player to the i2s connector on the dac. Even though the cables are "the same" it still won't work. You can run coax or toslink but I think it will downsample to 44.1

 

[kennyb123]

Perhaps SACD 2 channel is different but I don't think so.

You’re right, it’s not different. One possible solution might be what follows.

I ripped all my SACDs. It took time but it allowed me to play them with easily enough.

https://sonore-us.myshopify.com/pro...le-multi-channel-hdmi-digital-audio-extractor

 

[Frwkie]

Indeed, @milkdudd and @kennyb123 DSD (and PCM) only outs over HDMI from the Oppo, and by default that won't work with the I2S port on the X26pro. There's an option using https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/hdmi...l-to-i2s-coaxial-optical-4k-60hz-p-13419.html but at least for some of these devices (there are a lot of variations that come out in the same box) there are compatibility issues with ES9038PRO DACs, resulting in hiss/static noise.

 

[Thetaburn]

Got a question regarding MQA playback.

PC (Audirvana) to U18 to x26pro - streaming with Tidal master tracks.
On Audirvana I can see a blue MQA logo - but on the X26pro - it says IIS in - PCM 88.2khz. The settings are WASAPI and MQA Decoder.

If I don't use U18 as DDC - and use USB direct to x26pro- it says OFS - 44.1khz.
Shouldn't it say MQA and a higher sample rate?

 

[DAPpower]

Got a question regarding MQA playback.

PC (Audirvana) to U18 to x26pro - streaming with Tidal master tracks.
On Audirvana I can see a blue MQA logo - but on the X26pro - it says IIS in - PCM 88.2khz. The settings are WASAPI and MQA Decoder.

If I don't use U18 as DDC - and use USB direct to x26pro- it says OFS - 44.1khz.
Shouldn't it say MQA and a higher sample rate?

I think you should be using ASIO instead of WASAPI to bypass the Windows/MacOS settings and link directly to the X26 Pro for a clean/direct connection. To do this you will need to download the Gustard drivers which is here, http://www.gustard.cn/?page_id=8956

I will check tonight to see what my X26 Pro says on Audirvana Origin regarding MQA playback.