[doitttt]

GoldenOne
have you tried measuring on audiophilleo 1 and2
and see what the result will be

 

[GoldenSound]

GoldenOne
have you tried measuring on audiophilleo 1 and2
and see what the result will be

I've not tried either unfortunately. I'd happily try one if the opportunity arises though

 

[JaMo]

Hi @GoldenOne ,
May I ask what external Oscillator was used during these measurements? I find it strange, if the EXT XO is better (less phase noise) and with correct BNC connectors and cable, to get a worse result than on internal XO's. The Accusilicon AS338 are quite good compare to a lot of other XO's out there.. But by adding the highest quality master clock as in my case is the REF SE120, the result soundwise is brilliant.
-How can the measurements show these numbers?
/Jan

 

[GoldenSound]

Hi @GoldenOne ,
May I ask what external Oscillator was used during these measurements? I find it strange, if the EXT XO is better (less phase noise) and with correct BNC connectors and cable, to get a worse result than on internal XO's. The Accusilicon AS338 are quite good compare to a lot of other XO's out there.. But by adding the highest quality master clock as in my case is the REF SE120, the result soundwise is brilliant.
-How can the measurements show these numbers?
/Jan

This is using the APx555's own 10Mhz reference output, with cables I've personally tested to be correct characteristic impedance.

The key thing to remember is that using a 10Mhz reference clock does not really work in the way that people assume. When using a 10Mhz clock, your DAC does not run directly off it. Your DAC uses the external clock as a reference and its own VCO in a PLL to synthesize the output clock signal at the required rate.
Meaning in most cases, you're still using the same clock internally, just with a PLL ensuring that there is no long-term clock drift relative to the 10Mhz reference input. And so you'll get the same or slightly worse jitter performance as we see here.

10Mhz clocks were never intended to improve performance. They are intended to keep many devices in sync and prevent long term clock drift so that in professional situations where you may have dozens of ADCs, processors, DACs etc, you don't end up with sync issues between them.
This is especially important in video applications.

They've made their way into the home audio market because they're big and expensive and therefore people will buy them and expect to hear an improvement. (And therefore companies are also marketing them toward audiophiles) But there is a reason you don't see DAC manufacturers even at the ultra high end using 10Mhz clocks internally.

Using a higher quality clock directly, such as by using an I2S DDC with better quality clocks than the ones in your DAC, can absolutely result in a subjectively obvious and objectively demonstrable improvement in jitter performance. Cause you've pretty much replaced the clock source with a better one.
But with a 10Mhz clock that's not what's happened. They were intended to solve the issue of clock drift/sync between many devices, not to improve performance. And they do not replace the clock source like what happens with an I2S DDC

EDIT: This is a pretty thorough video on the topic for those wanting to know more about the ins and outs of how this works:

 

[JaMo]

Thanks for the informative answer.
/Jan

 

[Crypt Keeper]

I have tried different power supplies with my AD Double Crown Clock and each time I’m getting impression “my DAC was replaced” and not the clock LPS … The tone is different not just instrument separation and the stage … Most recently I tried iFi iPower Elite and got more bass and highs + more micro details… (AD Double Crown Clock is connected to U18)

 

[doitttt]

hold jitter down
CHAIN1: the laptop it makes a lot of noise, always on usbport.
i have done it to put HoloAudio - Titanis, then idefender with xpower 5volt
then I disconnect the power, from laptop and user, idefender with clean power
then there is usb cable, must have low jitter.
I use QED Reference usb 3meter, it has very low jitter.
CHAIN2: gustard u18 there is not much to do.
other one uses, hdmicable high quality.
or aes / ebu, I use mogami 3080 aes cable 110ohm.
what about jitter, between hdmi and aes / ebu, it measured to no difference
but there may be the difference, on the sound in hdmi and aes / ebu
i have set external cybershaft 10mhz clock, on gustard u18
must provide lower ps jitter
what i say to get the best result, out of gustard u18, it starts with the laptop

 

[doitttt]

with 10mhz clock should look at clock noise
how much fs clock has, and not psjitter
the best clock, is mutec ref10, it is very low
it has 15fs at 1hz and 10hz 3fs
other clocke goes 7 fs to 300fs
it makes the sound become, more clear, in the bass and midrange
and treble , transients flow better

 

[801evan]

I have tried different power supplies with my AD Double Crown Clock and each time I’m getting impression “my DAC was replaced” and not the clock LPS … The tone is different not just instrument separation and the stage … Most recently I tried iFi iPower Elite and got more bass and highs + more micro details… (AD Double Crown Clock is connected to U18)

Good to hear this experiment. Something I'll do down the line. What bnc cable do you use? I experience the same upgrades using a ocxo. It's better than getting a dac upgrade. I have taken out the ferrite on the stock Elite as it gives a hump on the upper mids. Then I use a Oyaide dc plug. It's a great upgrade path. I have since upgraded the dc cable to silver occ for a deeper more extended top and bottom sound.

 

[801evan]

i have done it to put HoloAudio - Titanis, then idefender with xpower 5volt

I've tried the Titanis between the Zen Stream and different DACs fed with line conditioner, silver cables and 24x lt3045 voltage regulators. It has a thin sound. Lacks extension and mid bass. Ifi USb purifier 3 is a much fuller sound with no compromise.

the best clock, is mutec ref10

Mutec ref10 may be good but it's performance is restricted by the PSU. I get better performance out of DC powered ocxo and powering it with ifi Elite or in my case, a custom psu with lt3045. I've tried the mutec ref10 and I get better performance with the USB ipurifier 3 method. You may get better performance on the lower end mutec with a PSU mod so you can use a dc powered psu.

Eventually you want to upgrade from the laptop as streamer and try a zen stream + elite 15v. It's a much transparent experience.

 

[Crypt Keeper]

Good to hear this experiment. Something I'll do down the line. What bnc cable do you use? I experience the same upgrades using a ocxo. It's better than getting a dac upgrade. I take out the ferrite on the stock Elite as it gives a hump on the upper mids. Then I use a Oyaide dc plug. It's a great upgrade path. I have since upgraded the dc cable to silver occ for a deeper more extended top and bottom sound.

I’m using Gustard C2 clock cable ($167) and it seems to beat the stock cable (AD Red clock cable 1m) I will be ordering Farad Super 3 LPS soon I want to try it with the clock and I have 1 extra SR Purple Fuse available just in time. With the fuse and DC cable upgrades the price is close to $1K it’s a lot for a LPS but I think I’m going to do this…

 

[801evan]

I’m using Gustard C2 clock cable ($167) and it seems to beat the stock cable (AD Red clock cable 1m) I will be ordering Farad Super 3 LPS soon I want to try it with the clock and I have 1 extra SR Purple Fuse available just in time. With the fuse and DC cable upgrades the price is close to $1K it’s a lot for LPS but I think I’m going to do this…

I've tried the super 3. It's a bit deeper (in a less transparent way, but more due to the caps) and slower than the Elite. The Elite beats the Hypsos in all my devices. Hypsos has a haze and is grainy + poor blacks in comparison.

Does that mean you have tried the c16 /c18 vs the AD ocxo with the u18? How's the difference?

 

[Crypt Keeper]

I've tried the super 3. It's a bit deeper (in a less transparent way, but more due to the caps) and slower than the Elite. The Elite beats the Hypsos in all my devices. Hypsos has a haze and is grainy + poor blacks in comparison.

Does that mean you have tried the c16 /c18 vs the AD ocxo with the u18? How's the difference?

I'm using “Fanless” cheap mini PC with Linux based Daphile (Real Time Kernel for low jitter) powered with ifi elite at the moment and it’s a huge improvement over always noisy laptop I’ve been using before … Would you say Zen Stream is going to be cleaner due to that Audio USB port it has ?

 

[Crypt Keeper]

I've tried the super 3. It's a bit deeper (in a less transparent way, but more due to the caps) and slower than the Elite. The Elite beats the Hypsos in all my devices. Hypsos has a haze and is grainy + poor blacks in comparison.

Does that mean you have tried the c16 /c18 vs the AD ocxo with the u18? How's the difference?

No. I didn’t get a chance to check out Gustard C18 clock with U18 … I went with AD Double crown Clock and then just replaced the clock cable …

 

[801evan]

I'm using “Fanless” cheap mini PC with Linux based Daphile (Real Time Kernel for low jitter) powered with ifi elite at the moment and it’s a huge improvement over always noisy laptop I’ve been using before … Would you say Zen Stream is going to be cleaner due to that Audio USB port it has ?

In a simple setup, coax sounds better. But I exceed the coax performance by doing
Zen stream > idefender > ipurifier > cosemi optical USB cable > idefender > purifier > dac.
I use diy silver occ couplers where needed and idefender on both upstream and downstream is powered (including zen stream) up to 60x lt3045 + custom psu + line conditioner. And it can beat 15k usd streamers with no sweat.

Part of the magic is making the zen stream tap to my phone's 5ghz hotspot and stream tidal and local files on my phone. It literally doubles the SQ performance and saves a lot of money from Audiophile level modem,router, switches and sfp+ devices.

Previously used a fanless Intel NUC clone as a dedicated streamer running windows server 2012 + audio optimizer + fidelizer + HQplayer powered by HDPLEX with silver dc cables + line conditioner. While this was a huge improvement, zen streamer is much better. Zen stream is also sensitive in a shared wifi environment so the phone trick works out. When my tablet was downloading from Netflix I can hear that interference in my sound playback.

This week I'm doing a zen stream coax vs CDT to test my chain and new custom psu. Both will passthrough a spdif purifier with 100x lt3045. So it'll be interesting to add a u18 in between my USB chain and the spdif purifier and see how that performs.