[rb2013]

More on vibration and electronic components:
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/vibration.html
 
Quote:

As mentioned previously, I believe capacitors, resistors, transistors and other component parts are sensitive to vibration. Therefore, anything we can do to reduce vibration in these components could be sonically beneficial. To this end, we shall explore a few of the options available for the more ambitious tweaks among you.
Capacitors, in particular, are sensitive to mechanical vibration. A few manufacturers attempt to control extraneous movements by gluing these parts to the circuit boards. This method, however, will only be effective if the circuit board has been effectively decoupled from the chassis. This usually is not the case. Alternately, damping the part itself by the application of surface treatments has proved beneficial. Strips of Q-Damp or Iso-Damp are well suited to this task. If you are so inclined, experiment by placing small strips of damping material on capacitors in critical areas of the circuit. Additionally, you may want to consider isolating and/or damping the circuit board itself. This measure is especially effective in the case of tubed electronics. Note: One should only attempt these modifications if they feel comfortable with the task.
 

 
 

 

[FredA]

I am aware of vibration-induced noise. I try to take that into acount assembling an amplifier. I use heavy aluminum enclosures and aluminum feet with rubber underneath to do some vibration absorption. My mini in on carbon cones, and that way, in addtion to reducing vibrations, it cools down better. The rack i use is on spikes which lie on some sort of semi-soft plastic disks made for that purpose and providing some damping. Same for my speaker, which i put on suspended platform, using feet that are tuned to their weight (available at partsconnexions).. You want to avoid vibrations coming from the speakers. I had another goals with those platform: avoid high-frequency lateral motion that could be induced by the lateral boomer on the Gallo 3.1 speakers i use. This helped obtaining a more accurate stereo image.

I would like adding some filtering to my dac, ddc and pre at some point. And install a dedicated 20a circuit. And then a linear supply to my mini. But i don't have much space left to add new gears. I believe i would need some high-frequency noise filtering, mainly.

 

[ginetto61]

   You'd be surprised at how good those redbook files can sound

 
Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable advice.
It is important for me to know that we the right playback system even redbook can sound very good.  It means that the problem is not the medium but something else. 
After all my music is only on cds.
Thanks again. Kind regards,  gino 

 

[ginetto61]

  So you just have a power block with no AC filtering at all.  Hmmm...  Might want to try a differential mode AC line filter. 
Read another EE John Swenson on USB PHY processing packet noise - you'll want your DDC on an AC isolation device. 
If you have a CD spinner esp you'll want that on separate AC isolated (DC servos are notorious for high freq noise) - It's not just PCs that pollute the AC household line. 
Any SMPS (Switching Power Supply), feeds grunge back into the household AC line. 
How many of those do you have plugged in around the house?  In fact, any digital audio device can be greatly effected by common AC line noise or household AC line noise (like DAC chips). 
Own a refrigerator?  It has a powerful AC motor - when it cycles it adds grunge to your line, Washer/Dryer?  Forced air heater - or Air Conditioner? Neighbors own a vacuum cleaner? 
Power saw?  How about EMI/RFI - air traffic near by?  How about some ham radio operators with 30 ft antennae in the vicinity?
In my old house I had a separate AC line put in - with a separate ground pole.  What a difference that made - even with a Nordost Thor and A series of Richard Gray Pro400's.

 
Hi ! just to give my humble experience.  The quality of the AC is very important.  And often AC is very polluted with noise.
Many times listening late at night with headphones the sound was much better than during the day.  And on Sunday also was better. 
I think that digital equipment are very sensitive to noise also outside the audio bandwidth.  I have the feeling for instance that noise at high Hz can have a bad impact on clock stability for once.
Clearly in a situation of polluted AC a cable can make a difference acting in the end as a filter.  And different cables with different electrical parameters, and therefore filtering effect, can indeed give different "sound".
IMHO a well designed filter should allow to use just a decent and not esoteric power cable after it.  
Again IMHO in a situation of noisy mains even just replacing a toroidal transformer (that i deeply hate with digital ) with one like the one depicted below
would pay big dividends in terms of mains noise suppression. Big big indeed. 
 

 
Very sadly all these cheap but very good converters use toroidals ... why ????   

toroidals let almost all the mains noise to reach the circutis !!!
Thanks a lot for the very helpful explanations.
Regards, gino    

 

[rb2013]

I am aware of vibration-induced noise. I try to take that into acount assembling an amplifier. I use heavy aluminum enclosures and aluminum feet with rubber underneath to do some vibration absorption. My mini in on carbon cones, and that way, in addtion to reducing vibrations, it cools down better. The rack i use is on spikes which lie on some sort of semi-soft plastic disks made for that purpose and providing some damping. Same for my speaker, which i put on suspended platform, using feet that are tuned to their weight (available at partsconnexions).. You want to avoid vibrations coming from the speakers. I had another goals with those platform: avoid high-frequency lateral motion that could be induced by the lateral boomer on the Gallo 3.1 speakers i use. This helped obtaining a more accurate stereo image.

I would like adding some filtering to my dac, ddc and pre at some point. And install a dedicated 20a circuit. And then a linear supply to my mini. But i don't have much space left to add new gears. I believe i would need some high-frequency noise filtering, mainly.

The placing of a dense weight on top of say a DAC that is then on vibration control footers seems to be a winning play.  It helps to mechanically couple the chassis to the footer to allow better vibration dissipation.  I like the Stillpoint footers and Synergistic Research MIG's.  The MIG's I have under all my amps - they can even be 'tuned' by reversing the cups.  I have tried about a dozen different devices - these worked the best.  I use Vibrapod pad and cones under the DDC's with a 1lb weight on top.  The weight also act to stabilize the cables hanging from the back.  Note that Cerious Tech use of ceramic and subnano particles to reduce micro vibrations in their Graphene Xtreme cables.
 

MiG: Mechanical Interface Grounding

Our new MiG component footers deliver vast improvements to all systems. Based on our Acoustic ART System resonators, MiG’s (Mechanical Interface Grounding) re-tune a component’s mechanical resonance, while providing a lightning fast drain of mechanical energy to ground. The result is a much larger soundstage with a lower noise floor for blacker backgrounds.

 

   
Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable advice.
It is important for me to know that we the right playback system even redbook can sound very good.  It means that the problem is not the medium but something else. 
After all my music is only on cds.
Thanks again. Kind regards,  gino 

Since so little of what I listen to is on true DSD or Hi Res (96k, 176k, 192k) - I have focused on Redbook.  I have DSD versions of say Norah Jones, also on 200gm Vinyl, also Redbook.   So I can compare.  The Redbook files are getting closer - but of course each improvement makes the DSD and digitalized (at 32 bit, 176k) LP sound better s well.
 

   
Hi ! just to give my humble experience.  The quality of the AC is very important.  And often AC is very polluted with noise.
Many times listening late at night with headphones the sound was much better than during the day.  And on Sunday also was better. 
I think that digital equipment are very sensitive to noise also outside the audio bandwidth.  I have the feeling for instance that noise at high Hz can have a bad impact on clock stability for once.
Clearly in a situation of polluted AC a cable can make a difference acting in the end as a filter.  And different cables with different electrical parameters, and therefore filtering effect, can indeed give different "sound".
IMHO a well designed filter should allow to use just a decent and not esoteric power cable after it.  
Again IMHO in a situation of noisy mains even just replacing a toroidal transformer (that i deeply hate with digital ) with one like the one depicted below
would pay big dividends in terms of mains noise suppression. Big big indeed. 
 

 
Very sadly all these cheap but very good converters use toroidals ... why ????   

toroidals let almost all the mains noise to reach the circutis !!!
Thanks a lot for the very helpful explanations.
Regards, gino    

Yes you are right R-core transformers are better at noise rejection.  So one nice thing about the DXIO you can use an R-core TeraDak DC-30W.  That said the Cerious Graphene cable makes a very significant difference with the R-Core TeraDak.

 

[FredA]

The placing of a dense weight on top of say a DAC that is then on vibration control footers seems to be a winning play.  It helps to mechanically couple the chassis to the footer to allow better vibration dissipation.  I like the Stillpoint footers and Synergistic Research MIG's.  The MIG's I have under all my amps - they can even be 'tuned' by reversing the cups.  I have tried about a dozen different devices - these worked the best.  I use Vibrapod pad and cones under the DDC's with a 1lb weight on top.  The weight also act to stabilize the cables hanging from the back.  Note that Cerious Tech use of ceramic and subnano particles to reduce micro vibrations in their Graphene Xtreme cables.






Since so little of what I listen to is on true DSD or Hi Res (96k, 176k, 192k) - I have focused on Redbook.  I have DSD versions of say Norah Jones, also on 200gm Vinyl, also Redbook.   So I can compare.  The Redbook files are getting closer - but of course each improvement makes the DSD and digitalized (at 32 bit, 176k) LP sound better s well.

Old Prot - at it again.  This joker has shown up on this thread from time to time - always annoyingly pushy.  Telling me what I should and should not post - on my thread. Demanding an instant response to his commands.  Spouting all his dribble about cables, burnin, fuses and whatever.  I usually just ignore his rants...as I will do now.  Alex how do you tolerate this guy?

Yes you are right R-core transformers are better at noise rejection.  So one nice thing about the DXIO you can use an R-core TeraDak DC-30W.  That said the Cerious Graphene cable makes a very significant difference with the R-Core TeraDak.

I like those vibrapads. They make sense since they take the weight into account. Never tried them on gears though besides speakers. Some gears benefit more from damping and suspending than others. I have a friend who owns a Musical Fidelity that sounds boring unless on a suspension.

 

[rb2013]

   
I remember someone said: trust your ears, not just data or measurements.

I'm with them.  The trouble is you have to know what to measure and how.  The ears aren't oscilloscopes.  In fact to this day scientists still can't figure out how humans hear in spatial terms.  The time differential of an object at 10 feet is so small and the length of the auditory nerve so long - that the speed differential of the right and left ear can not be how we construct a three dimensional location.  Yet we do with uncanny precision.
 

I like those vibrapads. They make sense since they take the weight into account. Never tried them on gears though besides speakers. Some gears benefit more from damping and suspending than others. I have a friend who owns a Musical Fidelity that sounds boring unless on a suspension.

I have used them to good effect for years - the Stillpoints are a reasonable and better alternative.  The best are the SRA (Silent Running Audio) - but insanely expensive. But they do sound great.  http://www.silentrunningaudio.com/audioisolationreviews/Reviews/Review2-Ultimate-Vibration-Control-Lars-Fredell.htm
 
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/stillpoints.htm
 
I should mention the Finite Element Ceraballs as well.
 
Here is an interesting shootout. http://singaporehifi.blogspot.com/2012/05/footer-shootout-good-bad-and-ugly.html
 
I recieved this Music Direct catalogue over the holidays  number 16 with Janis Joplin on the cover - this 274 page book is a great work.  Not only is it a great reference for recordings available on Hi Res SACD, PCM and vinyl - it has tons of gear.  And some new interesting isolation stuff.
 
A new line from Nordost of cones and these reasonable BDR Pyramid Mk3 and Mk4 cones.  The BDR's are $20 each. 
 
BTW the Vibrapad feet are $5.99 each and their cones are $7.99 each.  A large bottle of steel BB's at Walmart are $10.

 

[FredA]

I'm with them.  The trouble is you have to know what to measure and how.  The ears aren't oscilloscopes.  In fact to this day scientists still can't figure out how humans hear in spatial terms.  The time differential of an object at 10 feet is so small and the length of the auditory nerve so long - that the speed differential of the right and left ear can not be how we construct a three dimensional location.  Yet we do with uncanny precision.

I have used them to good effect for years - the Stillpoints are a reasonable and better alternative.  The best are the SRA (Silent Running Audio) - but insanely expensive. But they do sound great.  http://www.silentrunningaudio.com/audioisolationreviews/Reviews/Review2-Ultimate-Vibration-Control-Lars-Fredell.htm

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/stillpoints.htm

I should mention the Finite Element Ceraballs as well.

Here is an interesting shootout. http://singaporehifi.blogspot.com/2012/05/footer-shootout-good-bad-and-ugly.html

I recieved this Music Direct catalogue over the holidays  number 16 with Janis Joplin on the cover - this 274 page book is a great work.  Not only is it a great reference for recordings available on Hi Res SACD, PCM and vinyl - it has tons of gear.  And some new interesting isolation stuff.

A new line from Nordost of cones and these reasonable BDR Pyramid Mk3 and Mk4 cones.  The BDR's are $20 each. 

BTW the Vibrapad feet are $5.99 each and their cones are $7.99 each.  A large bottle of steel BB's at Walmart are $10.

Ebay is full of interesting products. This one uses a magnetic suspension and seems well made.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/4PCS-D48-H40-Sound-Isolation-Spikes-Maglev-feet-HIFI-audio-Stand-mat-/111791073497?hash=item1a074468d9:g:bmgAAOSwd0BVvdRy

Too bad i have blown 120$ on a network isolator that does not work as i2s galvanic isolator, otherwise i might get tempted to order a set for my m7. And i was thinking of a couple of vibrapads for the breeze. Funny you mentioned putting something on top of the ddc. I have a souvenir fron Istanbul, weighting about 1 pound, on top of the breeze, added when i switched for a heavier power cable, and i think it might have helped making it sound better. It is make out of some dense plastic material (acrylic?) that looks like having nice damping properties. The aluminum shell is not very thick and most likely prone to vibration transmission. That bloc of acrylic must help.

The night is still young. I will go through ebay to find the most interesting products. But i really like the idea of a magnetic suspension. Must be one of smoothest possible and must be very consistent. They are using that techno in automotive these days. This mAkes me think of that amazing Ford Mustang shelby gt350r which offers realtime stiffness adjustments based on the g forces. I don't like muscle cars usually but this car seems unbelievably good. Loads of funs.

 

[rb2013]

Ebay is full of interesting products. This one uses a magnetic suspension and seems well made.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/4PCS-D48-H40-Sound-Isolation-Spikes-Maglev-feet-HIFI-audio-Stand-mat-/111791073497?hash=item1a074468d9:g:bmgAAOSwd0BVvdRy

Too bad i have blown 120$ on a network isolator that does not work as i2s galvanic isolator, otherwise i might get tempted to order a set for my m7. And i was thinking of a couple of vibrapads for the breeze. Funny you mentioned putting something on top of the ddc. I have a souvenir fron Istanbul, weighting about 1 pound, on top of the breeze, added when i switched for a heavier power cable, and i think it might have helped making it sound better. It is make out of some dense plastic material (acrylic?) that looks like having nice damping properties. The aluminum shell is not very thick and most likely prone to vibration transmission. That bloc of acrylic must help.

The night is still young. I will go through ebay to find the most interesting products. But i really like the idea of a magnetic suspension. Must be one of smoothest possible and must be very consistent. They are using that techno in automotive these days. This mAkes me think of that amazing Ford Mustang shelby gt350r which offers realtime stiffness adjustments based on the g forces. I don't like muscle cars usually but this car seems unbelievably good. Loads of funs.

A decade ago I used magnetic isolators. The problem is they tend to drift to one side then once the metal makes contact they lose their magnetic float. But keep looking, I'm open to trying some new things.

 

[ginetto61]

  ...   Since so little of what I listen to is on true DSD or Hi Res (96k, 176k, 192k) - I have focused on Redbook.  I have DSD versions of say Norah Jones, also on 200gm Vinyl, also Redbook.   So I can compare. 
The Redbook files are getting closer - but of course each improvement makes the DSD and digitalized (at 32 bit, 176k) LP sound better s well.  

 
Hi and thanks a lot again.  This is very important for me.  I do not pretend top performance. Only a musical result. Relaxing and involving. 

Yes you are right R-core transformers are better at noise rejection.  So one nice thing about the DXIO you can use an R-core TeraDak DC-30W. 
That said the Cerious Graphene cable makes a very significant difference with the R-Core TeraDak.

Thanks again and good to know. 
I have my take about vibration control.  I am a lot for taking out the transformer from the box with the circuit.  I did some experiments and i had the feeling (no measurements to support this only listening test) that the transformer can be a very bad beast for the units.  Putting it externally has always given back a more relaxed sound.  I know it is a little wierd but i think that the real and more nasty vibrations are those internals in the components.
Transformers are the most vibrating parts in a device.  Just touch it and feel the vibrations. And of course the metal case amplifies them so yes a weight placed above the case almost always had a very positive effect. I like very much lead even if it is poisonous. 
This is very bad indeed.   I understand that is much more convenient to keep it inside ... but the best is seldom the easiest.
Thanks a lot again.  Have a nice day 
gino 

 

 

[rb2013]

Sorry about that folks - now back to business.  PUC2 Lite arrives today!

 

[abartels]

Can happen, no sweat

 , we're all on a learning curve, that's why we call ourselves human

 
Curious about first impressions!
 
 
Btw, did you guys heard of, and maybe demoed Acoustic Revive RR-777 / RR-888
 
https://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/roomtuning/rr-77.html
 
There's a Patend pending, hmm, just received my own designed pcb's today,,,,,, not sure if they can sue me because I use different schematics, different Chip,,,,,,
 


 

 

[FredA]

Just a new bit about isolation. There is a thread on bamboo planks on headfi. Tried it under thr Master-7. Got a small but noticeable upgrade. Used just about 1 inch thick. Just did the same under my audio-gd pre. Seems to work as well.

Hey rb2013 how about the new mx-u8? Seems very similar to thr breeze with better chassis. In think someone is about to compare them on the mx-u8 thread. Could be a contender.

 

[bimmer100]

I have way too much stuff I'm waiting on in the mail... I still plan to do some reviews on all this gear everyone has been talking about.
I still am waiting for some crystals to arrive to mod some of the ddc's.
The breeze should be a breeze with 957's
The diu8 will be complex and can't use 575's as they don't have correct pin1 for crystal to turn on and off. I will try brain surgery with NDK's on one xmos board, 957's with custom elevated platform I'm still planning that.. And the third xmos board with stock crystals. Likely may end up with NDK's.
The pro3a is on the way and grabbed a DIY xmos to i2s USB module too, with NDK's. (Maybe will make a DDC with HDMI i2s In a little black box
So is the two diff regulators , one from acko dac ah75
And the other one I can't remember the name now. Bellison super power mk2
I may have a bunch of extra parts avail for those who might want to source some crystals , sockets and platform boards for 957's.
I'm waiting to hear from kingwa about the extra xmos boards I'm ordering and HDMI i2s output kit.
I did however get ahold of the cable company who makes the graphene extreme and finally got one of those ordered up. Along with some maestro outlets which I'm installing one of them in my psaudio p300.
I'm not to excited right now since my edition x's were sent in for warranty to replace entirely because I'm too picky and they had a minor cosmetic flaw... Haha. But I want a perfect pair.
In the meantime I bought a pair of hd800's and been using sonar works plugin with jriver. It's not too shabby. I still prefer edition x's. But it's amazing how many haters there are of the edition X, but many hate the hd800 too. So whatever.
Once I get all the ddc's sorted, I will get actual detailed measurements of each, from jitter to freq response and noise figures etc. the interesting stuff. but likely won't be til next month .
My father in law had a medical emergency/accident and have family matters to attend to for a while. All is fine and will keep posting when I can.
I'm excited to see someone post some comparison results of ddc's as well. Hoping maybe rb2013 and I would be able to spend a day doing some auditioning of the ddc's and take notes to share with everyone.

 

[panhead]

A decade ago I used magnetic isolators. The problem is they tend to drift to one side then once the metal makes contact they lose their magnetic float. But keep looking, I'm open to trying some new things.

I think vibration is very important to getting good sound.    When the breeze first arrived it was sitting on top of the pc.  (which is on the valabs).    A very large improvement came from sitting the breeze on the valabs on a cutting board which sits on mapleshade pads.  I use 5 lb scuba weights on top of things where possible as airborn vibration also has an effect.   Learned this from a recent HRS seminar that I attended.
 
Right now almost everything is sitting on these:
 
 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valab-Audio-Vibration-Isolation-Damper-Feet-4-Pcs-/301844883492?
 
The above setup even helps the dish box sound and look better.
 
 
Now back to the regular scheduled channel:   Please update us when the puc arrives!!!