[ginetto61]

  Gino, I am interested to know how you have come to the conclusion that toroidal power supplies are so bad?
I mean you can find them in gear costing tens of thousands of dollars. How on earth can they be such a problem if designers of cost is no object gear still use them? I'm not at all trying to attack you as you seem like a very nice and always polite poster here, but I'm not sure where the evidence for this dislike comes from? I'm no expert at all so perhaps there is evidence that they actually sound worse (not measure worse, I don't care about measurements that I can't hear).

 
Hi let me explain a little the rationale behind my suspicion about the use of toroidals for digital equipment power supplies 

Usually when i am selecting a specific unit like a usb to spdif converter just out of curiosity i always look at the best ones in class, just to get an inea of their construction.
sadly their price is also high end and usually out of my budget.
From what i understand one of the very best in class is the Berkeley Audio Alpha converter here under depicted
 
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/attachments/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/9188d1385951024-15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-berkeley.jpg
 
if you look at its power supply you'll see that the designer has selected another type of transformer.
Without even thinking that would be my 1st choice for the voltage transformer.
Then i also had a look at their dacs, equally top class ... again no toroidals.
 
http://www.hifishock.org/galleries/electronics/berkeley-audio-design/source/dac/alpha-dac-1-berkeley-audio-design.jpg
 
i am quite sure that that kind of transformer can make filtering of mains noise less critical.
I cannot say for RF noise because i have no scope, but in a very rudimental experiment the spikes in the mains passes through toroidals in a spectacular way.  No filtering at all.
A EI in the same position had a much much better suppression of these spikes (i.e. switching on/off of the lights in the listening room caused a loud noise through the speakers with the toroidals and much much less with an EI type transformer)
Both the x-former used in the converter and the EI type share the separation between primary and secondary windings,
I am not an expert but i think that measuring some kind of bandwidth the toroidals have a much wider bandwidth than EI type.
I read once that the toroidal construction could be interesting for output x-fomer in tube amps because of this.  They let everything through.
Again i cannot say if the RFI suppression is of the same level, but i would tend to think so.  I agree that if you have some kind of filter in front of the toroidal the final effect will be similar.
I will try a cheap RFI/EMI filter as soon as i will receive it.
If i had the money to spend i would buy immediately the converter above mentioned, confident to get one of the very best in class.
 
I also read other two interesting points in a review.
1)   the designer of the unit, clearly a gifted one, recommends the use of AES/EBU connection with the dac.  Needless to say that since then i am sold on this kind of connection and my ears say that it is indeed really musical. The sound seems more relaxed than with spdif while keeping all the detail
2)   during the review different pc sources were used to drive the converter, from very cheap ones to very expensive ones.   Even with cheap ones the sound was quite phenomenal, like it should with a very well design converter.  It should stop the garbage in, use the signal and ouptut a very high quality digital spdif or AES to the dac.  If a converter performance depends heavily from what is before is not a very good converter.
 
But you are right.  The toroidals can be equally good.  They will just ask for some more attention in the mains noise suppression department.
Like using a filter to supply the converter for instance.  But i am honestly confused by the huge offer of different devices.  I am quite lost.
To end i always look at the very best in class to try to understand what makes them the best.
Like in the Formula one when mechanics of other teams peep inside the box of the best performing cars to steal some technical solution.
Unfortunately my eye is technically quite blind.
Regards, gino
 
POST SCRIPTUM
 
actually thinking a little more and "stealing" this picture of the power supply in the very nice Tanly converter ...
 
http://gd4.alicdn.com/imgextra/i4/888047659/TB2xo9maVXXXXafXpXXXXXXXXXX-888047659.jpg
 
i can spot a choke and some caps after the mains socket upstream the toroidal.
Instead i remember the 1st version using a R-core transformer.
However ... given that the unit in question is said to be excellently sounding i have decided to take the external filter way.
I will look seriously at some DIY project for a passive main filter ... very simple .. just some chokes and caps and keep the U12 untouched.
But i am sure some kind of additional filtering for the stock unit will be beneficial.  I prefer the Tanly PS for this aspect.
It is true that also high end units use toroidals, but they have all some kind of additional mains filtering in front of it (or maybe after ?)
Thanks a lot again for the very useful advice.

 

[stuartmc]

"actually thinking a little more and "stealing" this picture of the power supply in the very nice Tanly converter ...

http://gd4.alicdn.com/imgextra/i4/888047659/TB2xo9maVXXXXafXpXXXXXXXXXX-888047659.jpg

i can spot a choke and some caps after the mains socket upstream the toroidal.
Instead i remember the 1st version using a R-core transformer.
However ... given that the unit in question is said to be excellently sounding i have decided to take the external filter way."

I can certainly vouch for the excellent sound of the current Tanly. It's impossible for me to determine which of the ingredients makes the biggest improvement - power supply, crysteks, or buffer, but the total package is eargasm worthy. I have over 100 hours of play time on it now and it has retained every bit of the dynamic energy and transparency while losing that last little touch of treble grain.

I would love to get my hands on the Berkeley for a head to head. From what I've read of the Berkeley's sound signature, the Tanly could very well be its more affordable twin.

 

[ginetto61]

I can certainly vouch for the excellent sound of the current Tanly. It's impossible for me to determine which of the ingredients makes the biggest improvement - power supply, crysteks, or buffer, but the total package is eargasm worthy.

 
Hi so it is really good indeed.  Which version do you have ? the one depicted in the last link attached or the previous one with R-core transformer ?
 

I have over 100 hours of play time on it now and it has retained every bit of the dynamic energy and transparency while losing that last little touch of treble grain.
I would love to get my hands on the Berkeley for a head to head. From what I've read of the Berkeley's sound signature, the Tanly could very well be its more affordable twin.

 
Some reviewers have rated the Berkeley converter as maybe the best on the planet.
 
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/berkeley-audio-design-alpha-usb-interface/
 

Conclusion
The Berkeley Audio Design Alpha USB is a breakthrough product that not only overcomes the limitations of the USB interface, but provides a state-of-the-art method of getting audio out of a computer  ...  I listened to this digital front end as a source for electronics and loudspeakers that together cost more than $400k, yet never felt that the digital source was the weak link in the chain. In fact, I had the opposite reaction: This source allowed me to hear these ultra-exotic electronics and loudspeakers at their best. One day computer-based music systems will be simple to set up, foolproof, ubiquitous, and uncompromised in sound quality.
The Berkeley Alpha USB represents a giant leap forward in realizing this goal.

Price: $1895
 
Another interesting review here ...  http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/
 

Sound wise – this is by far the best sounding USB/SPDIF converter I tried, better than the dCS Scarlatti transport. The other top converters were very, very good, but still not perfect.... BADA pulls this incredible trick of sounding both more resolute, more transparent, and much smoother at the same time.  To me Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha USB defines the current state of the art in USB/SPDIF converters design.

this is actually a characteristic of the very very good digital ... extreme detail, extreme resolution and yet a feeling of relaxed sound, like ... ok .. the very best analog.  I said that.

Needeless to say that what the designer of this wonder states in the interview for me is truth. Like the superiority on principle of AES connection vs. Sdif and optical between other things.
And also the technical solutions/components used inside this converter are automatically good ... because they work exceptionally well together.
 
However ... if the Tanly's sound is comparable well ... let's say that considering how much more affordable is its price it would be an unbelievable achievement.
The nice thing with these converters is that ANY dac around will be pushed to its limits. Delta sigma or multibit ... in this way anyone will be able to pick up what he likes more.
They will be able to extract the best from anything, from the cheap one to the best one.
Thanks again for the info.
gino

 

[abartels]

"actually thinking a little more and "stealing" this picture of the power supply in the very nice Tanly converter ...

http://gd4.alicdn.com/imgextra/i4/888047659/TB2xo9maVXXXXafXpXXXXXXXXXX-888047659.jpg

i can spot a choke and some caps after the mains socket upstream the toroidal.
Instead i remember the 1st version using a R-core transformer.
However ... given that the unit in question is said to be excellently sounding i have decided to take the external filter way."

I can certainly vouch for the excellent sound of the current Tanly. It's impossible for me to determine which of the ingredients makes the biggest improvement - power supply, crysteks, or buffer, but the total package is eargasm worthy. I have over 100 hours of play time on it now and it has retained every bit of the dynamic energy and transparency while losing that last little touch of treble grain.

I would love to get my hands on the Berkeley for a head to head. From what I've read of the Berkeley's sound signature, the Tanly could very well be its more affordable twin.

 
Hi Stuart,
 
Nice pic 

 
Can you please tell me what kind of diodes are used? Are those Cree's?
 
Regards,
Alex

 

[stuartmc]

 Hi so it is really good indeed.  Which version do you have ? the one depicted in the last link attached or the previous one with R-core transformer ?

I have the latest version with the Talema transformer and additional small capacitors on the main board.
 

 Some reviewers have rated the Berkeley converter as maybe the best on the planet.

I had read those same reviews and was struck by the similarities. I took particular note of the design comments made in the computer audiophile review.  He points out the rather extraordinary efforts made in the Berkely to separate the dirty side  (usb input and Xmos chip) from the clean side (clocks and outputs).   The Berkely physically separates these sides and has an interesting isolator chip between the sides which he believes is an Adum chip with a ferrite gate over it.

 
He also points out that the usb input is mounted on plastic to avoid capacitive coupling with the metal case:
 

 
If you look at the Tanly, you will see very much of the same. In fact, I believe it was this dirty/clean design principal that led Tam at Tanly to mount the usb input on the front of the unit.  The two sections are completely separated on the pcb and the Tanly has two buffer chips over the I2S traces connecting the two sides vs. the one that Berkeley uses. The chips are a TI IS07240H which is a digital isolator exactly equivalent to the Adum chip referred to in the Computer Audiophile article - "*The ADuM chips are digital isolators based on the Analog Devices, Inc., iCoupler® technology. Combining high speed CMOS and monolithic transformer technologies, these isolation components provide outstanding performance characteristics superior to alternatives, such as optocouplers."  
 

 
Now look at the usb input. When the board is fit into the case, there is a black plastic sleeve that isolates it from the surrounding case surface.  This accomplishes the same thing as the Berkeley unit, but I think much more elegantly.
 

 
 
The mounting of the usb on the front turns out to be "form following function" rather than just some quirky design aesthetic of the engineer.  The chosen set up actually does give the greatest physical separation of the dirty and clean sides.  Take these design similarities, couple them with the listening impressions noted in The Absolute Sound and Computer Audiophile, and I think it is not unreasonable to call the Tanly an affordable near twin of the Berkeley. One major difference I see is the Tanly's inclusion of the Xilinx Spartan-6 FPGA.  Tanly is using it for data formation and jitter reduction. I don't see anything similar in the Berkeley pictures. This may be the reason the Tanly has two digital isolator chips separating the dirty and clean sides. It appears that the FPGA chip is being fed two separate channels from the XMOS.
 

 Can you please tell me what kind of diodes are used? Are those Cree's?  
Regards,
Alex

 
 
Yes, they are indeed Cree diodes. 

 

[rurika]

Thumb up for Stuartmc.
 
The reason that I bought The Tanly was as you described. Audiobyte Hydra-Z also use Xilinx Spartan but it was use Amanero not XMOS.
Also The Hydra-Z is around $835 shipped but The Tanly is $560 shipped.
 
Anyway, I'm still think the U12 is the bang for the buck if you can find a used unit.
 
PS. The Tanly doesn't come with thesycon driver package but it is very easy to find some and use them.

 

[auvgeek]

  Thumb up for Stuartmc.
 
The reason that I bought The Tanly was as you described. Audiobyte Hydra-Z also use Xilinx Spartan but it was use Amanero not XMOS.
Also The Hydra-Z is around $835 shipped but The Tanly is $560 shipped.
 
Anyway, I'm still think the U12 is the bang for the buck if you can find a used unit.
 
PS. The Tanly doesn't come with thesycon driver package but it is very easy to find some and use them.

Woah! Tanly charges ~$100 USD for shipping? Guess for some reason I was expecting it to be much less than that. Has anyone heard the U12, MX-U8, and Tanly?
 
I'll probably spring for the Tanly, but I wish it were just a bit cheaper. I have a nice vintage DAC (Theta Basic III) that accepts AES and coax (obv no USB or HDMI), but once I start thinking about spending over $500 on a USB interface, I start wondering if I should just buy a Yggdrasil.

 

[prot]

stuartmc the tanley designer surely deserves a medal for smart cloning .. a somewhat dubious title but I still mean it as a compliment.

And btw, since the tanley is in a diff price range, maybe one of the mods I mentioned a while ago makes sense
http://www.vectron.com/products/tcxo/tcxo_index.htm#tight
The TX-xxx ones seem to be the best TCXOs ever, one order of magnitude better than the crysteks&co with 30-50 ppb precision ... not sure about the prices but should be about $1-200 a piece. They are quite new and prolly never used in audio applications but the specsheets surely sound promising. Typical TCXO sizes and current needs, they may be (relatively) easy drop-in replacements.

 

[stuartmc]

  Thumb up for Stuartmc.
 
The reason that I bought The Tanly was as you described. Audiobyte Hydra-Z also use Xilinx Spartan but it was use Amanero not XMOS.
Also The Hydra-Z is around $835 shipped but The Tanly is $560 shipped.
 
Anyway, I'm still think the U12 is the bang for the buck if you can find a used unit.
 
PS. The Tanly doesn't come with thesycon driver package but it is very easy to find some and use them.

I haven't had to use a windows device driver since I was using an android tablet with a linux kernel.  I'm now changing over to a tablet that runs windows 8.1 and has a full size usb port (yeah!). I have the driver that was sent to me by Tanly, but I'm all ears if this Thesycon driver works better and sounds better.  Are you currently using it with your Tanly and can you share some more details about it?   We may want to go private with this conversation if it goes too far afield.  

 

[motberg]

  I haven't had to use a windows device driver since I was using an android tablet with a linux kernel.  I'm now changing over to a tablet that runs windows 8.1 and has a full size usb port (yeah!). I have the driver that was sent to me by Tanly, but I'm all ears if this Thesycon driver works better and sounds better.  Are you currently using it with your Tanly and can you share some more details about it?   We may want to go private with this conversation if it goes too far afield.  

Hi Guys, Please keep us updated on the Tanly, maybe start a new thread if there are already multiple users. Besides the build quality and engineering described above, I also find important the HDMI output i2S, and the near universal XMOS compatibility.... Thanks  

 

[stuartmc]

Hi Guys, Please keep us updated on the Tanly, maybe start a new thread if there are already multiple users. Besides the build quality and engineering described above, I also find important the HDMI output i2S, and the near universal XMOS compatibility.... Thanks  

I was thinking that I might start a new thread if there are enough of us to support it. I was sold on the Tanly because of the superb design and build, but it was the HDMI connector I2S that put it over the top. I have the Gustard H10 and U12 and am convinced that I2S is the best sounding connection.

 

[rb2013]

http://www.vectron.com/products/tcxo/tcxo_index.htm#tight
The TX-xxx ones seem to be the best TCXOs ever, one order of magnitude better than the crysteks&co with 30-50 ppb precision ... not sure about the prices but should be about $1-200 a piece. They are quite new and prolly never used in audio applications but the specsheets surely sound promising. Typical TCXO sizes and current needs, they may be (relatively) easy drop-in replacements.

One order better then the CCHD957?
 
Phase noise of the Vectron TX-402 (clock?) at 10Hz -80dB, 1kHz -130dB, 10kHz -145dB, 100kHz -150dB
 
Phase noise of the Crystek CCHD-957(24.576MHz) at 10 Hz -97.95dB, 1 kHz -149dB, 10 kHz -162.39dB, 100kHz -170.58dB
 
Phase noise of the NDK NZ2520SD (22.579Hz) at 10 Hz -112dB, 1 kHz -152dB, 10kHz -156dB, 100kHz -155dB
 
Phase noise of Vanguard (24.576MHz) 500ppb at 1kHz -125dB
 
Phase noise of Gustard (49.152MHz) 100ppb 1kHz ?
 
Phase noise of JYEC (MX-U8) 100ppb at 1kHz -130dB, 10kHz -140dB, 100 kHz -145dB
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vanguard-TCXO-0-1ppm-24-576MHz-Ultra-precision-Golden-Oscillator-/131020893410?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e81742ce2

 

[ginetto61]

I have the latest version with the Talema transformer and additional small capacitors on the main board.

Hi and thanks for the kind reply.
It looks to me a better realized PS than the one in the Melodious.
Filtering on the mains input, better diodes ... and i think also something else that my technically blind eye cannot spot

I had read those same reviews and was struck by the similarities. I took particular note of the design comments made in the computer audiophile review.

 
Yes. A great design and a great review indeed.   One of my favourite review.  And also the interview on the same site with the designer is extremely interesting.
Some people are really gifted.  And when gift meets passion a wonder appear.

He points out the rather extraordinary efforts made in the Berkely to separate the dirty side (usb input and Xmos chip) from the clean side (clocks and outputs).
The Berkely physically separates these sides and has an interesting isolator chip between the sides which he believes is an Adum chip with a ferrite gate over it.
 

 
He also points out that the usb input is mounted on plastic to avoid capacitive coupling with the metal case:
 

 
Clearly a very well designed unit and most important this seems to show in the listening tests.
But it is 2000 USD. Not that i am saying that is overpriced at all on the basis of the exceptional performance.
For a very high end pc set up could be just mandatory.  The usb to spdif conversion is very critical for top performance.
 

If you look at the Tanly, you will see very much of the same.
In fact, I believe it was this dirty/clean design principal that led Tam at Tanly to mount the usb input on the front of the unit.
The two sections are completely separated on the pcb and the Tanly has two buffer chips over the I2S traces connecting the two sides vs. the one that Berkeley uses.
The chips are a TI IS07240H which is a digital isolator exactly equivalent to the Adum chip referred to in the Computer Audiophile article - "*The ADuM chips are digital isolators based on the Analog Devices, Inc., iCoupler® technology. Combining high speed CMOS and monolithic transformer technologies, these isolation components provide outstanding performance characteristics superior to alternatives, such as optocouplers."
 

 
Now look at the usb input. When the board is fit into the case, there is a black plastic sleeve that isolates it from the surrounding case surface.
This accomplishes the same thing as the Berkeley unit, but I think much more elegantly.
 

 
The mounting of the usb on the front turns out to be "form following function" rather than just some quirky design aesthetic of the engineer.

 
Thanks a lot and very interesting.  To be honest only the usb on the front i do not like,
I like all connections on the back.  As a rule.
They should put the product on ebay.com to increase their market.  And also some technical pages in english for the western market.
but i like the power button.
Any device should have a power button on the front.  At least for accessibility in case of emergency.
 

The chosen set up actually does give the greatest physical separation of the dirty and clean sides.
Take these design similarities, couple them with the listening impressions noted in The Absolute Sound and Computer Audiophile, and I think it is not unreasonable to call the Tanly an affordable near twin of the Berkeley.
One major difference I see is the Tanly's inclusion of the Xilinx Spartan-6 FPGA. Tanly is using it for data formation and jitter reduction. I don't see anything similar in the Berkeley pictures.
This may be the reason the Tanly has two digital isolator chips separating the dirty and clean sides. It appears that the FPGA chip is being fed two separate channels from the XMOS.
Yes, they are indeed Cree diodes.

 
Clearly another great unit, a clear step above the cheaper offerings. 
I am not sure my actual system have high enough resolution to appreciate the differences between all the units.
I mean, it could be possible that i would not be able to discriminate between a U12 and a Tanly in my present set-up.
But for high level systems this Tanly could be just a definitive element of the chain.
Pc audio is extremely handy but also complex.   Some streamers like the Logitech Squeezebox are said to put out a very clean and good quality spdif signal.
But i am completely sold on the pc audio these days, even if a good set-up is difficult to put togther.
 
again i think that this Tanly deserves a dedicated thread for sure.
 
In the meantime i have some questions on the use of the Tanly, and sorry if you have already answered:
1)   which OS are you using ? are you using a powerful pc ?
2)   which usb cable are you using and how long ?
3)   are you using any power conditioner/filter with the Tanly ?
4)   which dacs have you tried with it and with which connection ?
 
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,  gino 

 

[rurika]

 
Woah! Tanly charges ~$100 USD for shipping? Guess for some reason I was expecting it to be much less than that. Has anyone heard the U12, MX-U8, and Tanly?
 
I'll probably spring for the Tanly, but I wish it were just a bit cheaper. I have a nice vintage DAC (Theta Basic III) that accepts AES and coax (obv no USB or HDMI), but once I start thinking about spending over $500 on a USB interface, I start wondering if I should just buy a Yggdrasil.

 
The price on Taobao is $470
The shipping fee (to US) is around $60-$65. I already asked Tan about it. But the reason he has to charge for $560 was paypal fee. So, I think it was fair for the price.
 
One of the major reasons I picked Tanly is HDMI I2S output and price. He can change hdmi pin output as you request. (by change Xilinx Spartan controller via firmware).
 

  In the meantime i have some questions on the use of the Tanly, and sorry if you have already answered:
1)   which OS are you using ? are you using a powerful pc ?
2)   which usb cable are you using and how long ?
3)   are you using any power conditioner/filter with the Tanly ?
4)   which dacs have you tried with it and with which connection ?
 

 
I use Windows 2012 R2 for my both fanless PC (controlPC , audioPC with jplay).   My unit audioPC is i5 4670T (was i7 4765T but I burned it) and i3 4xxxT (controlPC) can't remember what exactly model number.  I also use two of Teradak ATX power supplies (210w model) from Group buy. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/group-buy-full-atx-linear-power-supply-unit-teradak-21810
 
I use Acoustic Revive usb cable 1.0m with jplay usb card.
No, not for now but maybe later.
W4S Dac2 Dsdse
 
If I have to say. The Teradak PSU is the very very big step if you use a regular PC PSU. (or you can just use 12v Linear PSU with picoPsu 150XT or 160XT)

 

[ginetto61]

Originally Posted by rurika /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The price on Taobao is $470
The shipping fee (to US) is around $60-$65. I already asked Tan about it. But the reason he has to charge for $560 was paypal fee. So, I think it was fair for the price.
One of the major reasons I picked Tanly is HDMI I2S output and price. He can change hdmi pin output as you request. (by change Xilinx Spartan controller via firmware).
I use Windows 2012 R2 for my both fanless PC (controlPC , audioPC with jplay). 
My unit just i5 4670T (audioPC) and i3 4xxxT (controlPC) can't remember what exactly model number.
I also use two of Teradak ATX power supplies (210w model) from Group buy. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/group-buy-full-atx-linear-power-supply-unit-teradak-21810
I use Acoustic Revive usb cable 1.0m with jplay usb card.
No, not for now but maybe later.
W4S Dac2 Dsdse
If I want to say. The Teradak PSU is the very very big step if you use a regular PC PSU. (or you can just use 12v Linear PSU with picoPsu 150XT or 160XT)

 
Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting reply.
Kind regards,  gino