GUSTARD H10 High-current Discrete Class A output Stage Headphone Amplifier

Apr 25, 2015 at 5:59 AM Post #1,366 of 5,561
Quote:
  Hello sorry to ask redundant questions, but I'm totally unfamiliar with how power cables and power stabilizers or whatever can improve sound quality (funny thing I've never heard these concepts mentioned at all at the two head-fi meetings I've been to). But anyway, would a power cable technically be able to make a difference - considering that the on the other side of the outlet is connected to common household wiring behind the wall? Or maybe that's what the cable is for, to refine on that standard signal flow. And the big question here would be - were you able to notice any audible difference when using this power cable versus the stock cable (cable swap only directly to the wall).
 
For me I would probably just buy a padded power cable and not the surge protector. Perhaps I would use it for my DAC instead of the amp (Hmmm??)

 
I've done blind tests with cables that are a dollar, and those that are a hundred. Can't hear difference with any gear and I don't know anyone who does. Based on that experience, I agree with science - no difference. If you bought an expensive cable and think it sounds better, great. Don't do a blind test and enjoy the placebo effect. 
 
 
 
 
Regarding usb cables: I guess many here use a computer (or similar device, none of which are my preference)* to play their music files, and feed the signal to an off-board dac.
So (I'm going break my own rules and start going technical), this means that you're playing (feeding) a live signal, which includes the time domain, through a usb connection.
If it was just raw data, like moving a file, it wouldn't matter. But as the file is being 'played', even though it's still digital, this adds all kinds of other complications (of which I struggle to understand; it's all about jitter and stuff!). But basically, in this situation, the quality of the usb cable does matter.

 
DAC will re-clock the data, no need to worry about jitter from the computer. I think the quality of the USB cable doesn't matter beyond a dollar or so.
 
Apr 25, 2015 at 7:58 AM Post #1,367 of 5,561
....  
I've done blind tests with cables that are a dollar, and those that are a hundred. Can't hear difference with any gear and I don't know anyone who does. Based on that experience, I agree with science - no difference. If you bought an expensive cable and think it sounds better, great. Don't do a blind test and enjoy the placebo effect. 
 
....
 
DAC will re-clock the data, no need to worry about jitter from the computer. I think the quality of the USB cable doesn't matter beyond a dollar or so.

 
People's experiences, and the company they keep, differ. We share our experiences (and our opinions), that's what this forum is for. My experience, and the experiences of those I know, are different to you and yours.
 
Science has many theories, both why cables should and shouldn't make a difference. Science mostly theorises, not explains. So I think it's our experiences that matter the most. We just have to decide whose opinions are more worthy of our confidence.
As I usually mention, I wouldn't advise the purchase of expensive cables (unless you've got money that you just don't know what to do with....No, on second thoughts, give it to charity!)
 
A good dac may reclock, but a cleaner source signal is still probably preferable. And what about RFI? A good cable will channel less jitter and RFI to the equipment downstream.
 
Actually, you could argue that no cable matters beyond a dollar or so; that's what they cost to manufacture. It's the mark-up that's the problem!
 
Apr 25, 2015 at 11:40 AM Post #1,368 of 5,561
   
People's experiences, and the company they keep, differ. We share our experiences (and our opinions), that's what this forum is for. My experience, and the experiences of those I know, are different to you and yours.
 
Science has many theories, both why cables should and shouldn't make a difference. Science mostly theorises, not explains. So I think it's our experiences that matter the most. We just have to decide whose opinions are more worthy of our confidence.
As I usually mention, I wouldn't advise the purchase of expensive cables (unless you've got money that you just don't know what to do with....No, on second thoughts, give it to charity!)
 
A good dac may reclock, but a cleaner source signal is still probably preferable. And what about RFI? A good cable will channel less jitter and RFI to the equipment downstream.
 
Actually, you could argue that no cable matters beyond a dollar or so; that's what they cost to manufacture. It's the mark-up that's the problem!

Excellent post!
 
Apr 25, 2015 at 8:52 PM Post #1,369 of 5,561
I've done blind tests with cables that are a dollar, and those that are a hundred. Can't hear difference with any gear and I don't know anyone who does. Based on that experience, I agree with science - no difference. If you bought an expensive cable and think it sounds better, great. Don't do a blind test and enjoy the placebo effect. 



DAC will re-clock the data, no need to worry about jitter from the computer. I think the quality of the USB cable doesn't matter beyond a dollar or so.


Excellent post
 
Apr 25, 2015 at 10:35 PM Post #1,370 of 5,561
I must say, thus H10 amp just keeps getting better and better. Last night the serious, detailed and deep bass everyone talks about finally showed up. It is like I hit it with eq, but I didn't!! What an amazing burn in...
 
Apr 26, 2015 at 9:30 AM Post #1,371 of 5,561
  I must say, thus H10 amp just keeps getting better and better. Last night the serious, detailed and deep bass everyone talks about finally showed up. It is like I hit it with eq, but I didn't!! What an amazing burn in...

 
How many hours do you think you've run it? And, if you can, please tell us of any 'milestones' (hours of running where you noticed a significant improvement?), before the 'burn-in doesn't make any difference' brigade arrive 
atsmile.gif

 
Apr 26, 2015 at 9:46 AM Post #1,372 of 5,561
   
How many hours do you think you've run it? And, if you can, please tell us of any 'milestones' (hours of running where you noticed a significant improvement?), before the 'burn-in doesn't make any difference' brigade arrive 
atsmile.gif


ARRIVED!!
 
I have not burned in my H10 - sounded great the first time I listened to it. HA!! There you have it. 
 
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@lukeap69  burned it in for me, I bought it used - so I missed the whole burn-in show. Makes me feel a tiny bit sad though....
 
My H10 is already seasoned. Left is the sound when it was new - too smooth, not detailed enough, didn't have any "experience" - on the right the after - it has seen its fair share of music - knows how to do some BASS impact and has all the creases and wrinkles of the music....wait - maybe I switched the images? Damn Gustard....Gustard, come back, where are you going? Don't leave me, it was just a JOKE!!!
 

 
Apr 26, 2015 at 10:02 AM Post #1,373 of 5,561
Big improvement I've noticed is after 12 hours, then 20, then all incremental to me. YMMV.
 
Apr 26, 2015 at 10:49 AM Post #1,374 of 5,561
How many hours do you think you've run it? And, if you can, please tell us of any 'milestones' (hours of running where you noticed a significant improvement?), before the 'burn-in doesn't make any difference' brigade arrive :atsmile:

It sounded good right out of the box. After 20hrs or so I sounded worse to my ears until about 70hrs and then soundstage opened up and detail and layering showed up. I am over 100hrs now (stopped counting) and the bass has shown a lot of improvement to my ears, and I continue to get incremental improvement in detail, layering and soundstage.
 
Apr 26, 2015 at 1:06 PM Post #1,376 of 5,561
@bahamot - read that article before (fluent in Russian), it is a bit strange, and I have not got much out it personally.
 
Whole article retold in one paragraph: X12 is great, but you have to use it with U12, and you also HAVE to spend more on cabling than cost of X12 and U12 combined
darthsmile.gif

 
Author thought that USB interface in X12 was much inferior to U12, power cables horrible, he spent a fortune on cables, and before tweaks in his opinion X12+U12 was performing worse than ASUS Xonar Essence STX.
 
After a lot of painstaking tweaking he is apparently in heaven, but he does not recommend X12 for those that are not planning to spend a lot on cables upgrades and just want to 'plug in and go'.
 
This is author's opinions, not mine. Do not throw rotten tomatoes my way, please. Not just yet. I will give you your chance later.
 
Apr 26, 2015 at 2:09 PM Post #1,377 of 5,561
  @bahamot - read that article before (fluent in Russian), it is a bit strange, and I have not got much out it personally.
 
Whole article retold in one paragraph: X12 is great, but you have to use it with U12, and you also HAVE to spend more on cabling than cost of X12 and U12 combined
darthsmile.gif

 
Author thought that USB interface in X12 was much inferior to U12, power cables horrible, he spent a fortune on cables, and before tweaks in his opinion X12+U12 was performing worse than ASUS Xonar Essence STX.
 
After a lot of painstaking tweaking he is apparently in heaven, but he does not recommend X12 for those that are not planning to spend a lot on cables upgrades and just want to 'plug in and go'.
 
This is author's opinions, not mine. Do not throw rotten tomatoes my way, please. Not just yet. I will give you your chance later.


My experience has been the exact opposite. I just recently sold my trusty Xonar Essence STX after purchasing the X12, as the X12 is clearly far better imo.
 
Also I have found that going straight to the USB input on the X12 has given me a more enjoyable experience than introducing the U12 into the audio chain
tongue.gif

 
Just goes to show that auditioning equipment for yourself really is the only way to know if you'll like it or not!
 
Edit: Also, I forgot to say thanks to you, olek, for helping us understand the general gist of the Russian thread :). And thanks to you, bahamot, for posting it.
 
Apr 26, 2015 at 4:59 PM Post #1,378 of 5,561
You are welcome!
 
Overall that author has very 'elitist' attitude (like, if you are not ready to do it the best way - my way - because I know best - do not even bother). I think this hobby has plenty of room for subjectivity, and for differing opinions, and those so called 'experts' are just hurting it.
 
As for burn in milestones for H10, I would say first was about 20-30 hours in, where sound changed from very, very muddy, to not muddy, but still bad sound, with no bottom end and harsh top-end. Second milestone was around 70 hours, where sound became very nice (deep low end extension and smooth highs), and then it was getting incrementally smoother each day.
 
Apr 26, 2015 at 6:03 PM Post #1,379 of 5,561
OK, now it is time for me to show my non-conformist nature, and to give you all a chance to dispose of old tomatoes.
 
My listening time recently was split between H10, and vintage NAD 1020 preamp that I have very recently recapped.
And I have some surprises, that I do not understand myself, but ... that is what my ears are hearing and I stand by it.
 
First, before recap, 1020 was losing to H10 all around. It had nice sound, but it had strange slight coloration to it, no low end extension to speak of, and slightly jacked up highs.
 
After recap plus minor upgrades and ~20 hours of burn-in, that changed a lot. Overall sound is very reminiscent of H10. Switching between those 2 with variety of headphones (K553, K272HD, DT250, AD900) taught me that on moderate-loud levels they are more or less similar sounding (with AKG K553 sounding a bit better with H10 - deeper low end, mostly). With reduced volume (so called low volume listening, safe for my oh-so-problematic ears), H10 wins easily, maintaining very believable soundstage, while NAD 1020 sound 'deflates' and becomes fairly 2D on lower volume levels.
 
Here comes the kicker. When I tried HD650 with that NAD 1020 on moderate-loud levels (what I would call critical listening volume), I was floored. This cheap pre-amp has no business sounding that good, even if it is legendary, and is known as best budget pre-amp in existence. It is hard to say what it does better than H10, one obvious thing is its low end extension is either slightly deeper or a little stronger (or both), and detail/texture is a bit better but that is not all. There is strange sense of 'presence' and 'clarity' using this combination, that manifests itself a lot when listening to complicated and loud organ music (with multiple low and high registers building melodies at once), or with Gregorian chant (multiple male voices). I know how organ sounds in the real world, and this combo teleports me to concert hall - when I close my eyes, I feel that I am THERE. Same with gregorian chant - I feel like I am in the same room with monks. Especially when I play vinyl. One word I came up over and over using this combination - visceral. Yes, that is how it feels.
 
And I can not get the same effect from H10. It sounds great, especially on safer listening volumes, smooth, deep, detailed, and not harsh, but it just does not have that crazy synergy with HD650. Funny thing is, with 250Ohm DT250 (very good choice for low level listening, unlike most phones it preserves low end detail even when played quietly), it sounds AMAZING - on lower volume levels, but when cranked to critical listening levels, NAD starts to take over in a way similar to HD650, just not to such a ridiculous extent.
 
All in all, I am starting to feel that H10 is shining its brightest with 'lowish' impedance headphones that need a lot of current (or with any headphones as long as you keep volume relatively low!), and while it works well with higher impedance headphones (250 Ohm +), it just does not extract that very last bit of performance from them. Of course, I am extrapolating from small and very limited set of headphones I own, but that is how I feel about it at the moment, because so far MY dataset fits this hypothesis. Also, there was other data posted here suggesting great synergy of H10 with planars and K7xx, and it fits that theory as well.
 
There. Those days when I want to listen to something critically (as in - do nothing else and enjoy music to its full extent - for limited time), I reach for HD650 + NAD 1020. If I just want to listen (relatively) quietly and enjoy music for long time (and can't use my good speakers for some reason), it is H10 with DT250 (best for really low volume), or any other pair of phones. If I had planars or K7xx would likely use them  with H10, but that is purely a speculation.
 
Got those tomatoes ready?
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Apr 26, 2015 at 10:55 PM Post #1,380 of 5,561
Ugh, I spoke too soon.
 
Got out of my 'classical music' streak, and switched to jazz (with female vocals) this evening, and H10 sounds more enjoyable to me than NAD 1020 time after time. Grrr.
 
I guess it just proves that it is all subjective and depends on awfully many variables. And it is possible to prefer different amplifiers for different music, just like many of us pick different headphones depending on genre. Sorry for your wallet.
 

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