GUSTARD DAC-R26 Balanced Decoder R2R+1Bit Dual Native Decoding Music Bridge

[Nada]

jitter created by galvanic isolation

WIth ethernet there is no jitter created by the galvanic isolation. The DAC clocks the signal independently. Beautiful.

How are you supplying data to the U18? USB can be noisy. Is that noise 100% shielded from I2S output? I2S was never designed to be used as transmission between devices or long runs on cables more then a few cm. I2S has no isolation. Sometime complexity makes things worse.

Its a great idea trying the DDC vs ethernet. Please can you try TOSLINK and I2S? TOSLINK with perfect isolation but worst jitter potential could be interesting. The R26 PLL should smash jitter on TOSLINK as well as on I2S anyway.

 

[mmwwmm]

A friend of mine uses a Netgear EAX12 extender just as a media bridge (with wifi extender mode disabled on both bands) to wireless stream from his wifi 6 router in another room to the extender and then from EAX12 gigabit ethernet port to the R26 ethernet input (using good quality CAT8 cable) and is working just perfect.

 

[Nada]

A friend of mine uses a Netgear EAX12 extender just as a media bridge

Thanks for the idea! Thats smart. It creates a mini dedicated lan network just for the audio. I think an older low power extender model would be even better. Cheaper to. Like 22bucks at Wallmart.

 

[comzee]

@mantraone @BShaw

I own U18, I have tested this exact scenario.

Note: Allo USB Signature - this is a device just like the Zen Stream. It's a network device with super clean USB, specifically created to connect USB DDC to it.

The two chains I compared:

Scenario #1: Switch -> Ethernet -> Allo USB Signature -> USB -> U18 -> HDMI I2S -> R26
Scenario #2: Switch -> Ethernet -> R26

Scenario #2 sounded better to me, more open soundstage, better texture.

I've said it before in this thread, I'll say it again.
USB is NOT a good protocol to send PCM audio down (from an audiophile perspective).

TCP/IP is simple, no synchronous / asynchronous crap to deal with, USB is crazy more complex, and really does some crazy stuff to PCM data within it's transmission.
TCP/IP dumps the PCM data directly on the R26 buffer, which is PLL locked to the synthesizer. No intermediary steps!

Also, while yes there is electricity present (signals have to be carried by electricity, of course) a non POE Ethernet connection is going to carry a micro-fraction of power to the R26 vs the power USB carries.

USB has a dedicated 5V line for power, (hence the entire reason for devices like Zen Stream or Allo USB Signature, devices to make the USB 5V power very clean).
Another failing of USB, all the hassle and workaround just to make the 5V line clean.

I'm not going to say an "audiophile" switch won't matter, but I have a regular SOHO router, works just fine with R26.
Ethernet -> R26 direct is the best I've been able to make it sound.

I will be testing DI-20HE soon with R26, but I'm also doubting that will sound better than internal R26 ethernet.

As always, ymmv. Not dissuading people from trying U18, just saying what my direct experience is.

 

[Nada]

just saying what my direct experience is.

Thanks for sharing your very useful experiments. What you found is very valubale. Sometimes simpler is better.

Can I ask if you could consider doing another quick experiment? Do you have a WIFI extender at home by any chance? Something simple and low power like the TP-LINK AC750 Wireless Range Extender ($22 at Wallmart). This has a LAN outlet. It allows an isolated, dedicated mini LAN network to be easily made? This offers convenience of having a LAN outlet right next to the DAC, that perhaps might sound different?

 

[BShaw]

@mantraone @BShaw

I own U18, I have tested this exact scenario.

Note: Allo USB Signature - this is a device just like the Zen Stream. It's a network device with super clean USB, specifically created to connect USB DDC to it.

The two chains I compared:

Scenario #1: Switch -> Ethernet -> Allo USB Signature -> USB -> U18 -> HDMI I2S -> R26
Scenario #2: Switch -> Ethernet -> R26

Scenario #2 sounded better to me, more open soundstage, better texture.

I've said it before in this thread, I'll say it again.
USB is NOT a good protocol to send PCM audio down (from an audiophile perspective).

TCP/IP is simple, no synchronous / asynchronous crap to deal with, USB is crazy more complex, and really does some crazy stuff to PCM data within it's transmission.
TCP/IP dumps the PCM data directly on the R26 buffer, which is PLL locked to the synthesizer. No intermediary steps!

Also, while yes there is electricity present (signals have to be carried by electricity, of course) a non POE Ethernet connection is going to carry a micro-fraction of power to the R26 vs the power USB carries.

USB has a dedicated 5V line for power, (hence the entire reason for devices like Zen Stream or Allo USB Signature, devices to make the USB 5V power very clean).
Another failing of USB, all the hassle and workaround just to make the 5V line clean.

I'm not going to say an "audiophile" switch won't matter, but I have a regular SOHO router, works just fine with R26.
Ethernet -> R26 direct is the best I've been able to make it sound.

I will be testing DI-20HE soon with R26, but I'm also doubting that will sound better than internal R26 ethernet.

As always, ymmv. Not dissuading people from trying U18, just saying what my direct experience is.

That’s a very clear and helpful post, Comzee, thank you. There are enough reasons for me to just go direct via ethernet: can get rid of the zen stream and pricey USB cable. Less rack space needed without the zenstream or the U18. Save on purchase of U18 and profit from selling ZS.
All I need is a six dollar app (mconnect) and a decent ethernet cable, considering the Supra. Even at 30 feet it’s not too pricey. Now the only question remaining is how working through mconnect compares to Tidal connect which I use now and it’s pretty smooth.

 

[BShaw]

I’ve never used upnp before so have no reference re how it compares to running Tidal connect. I suppose it’s even possible Gustard will add TC down the line, we can always hope

 

[roncal]

@mantraone @BShaw

I own U18, I have tested this exact scenario.

Note: Allo USB Signature - this is a device just like the Zen Stream. It's a network device with super clean USB, specifically created to connect USB DDC to it.

The two chains I compared:

Scenario #1: Switch -> Ethernet -> Allo USB Signature -> USB -> U18 -> HDMI I2S -> R26
Scenario #2: Switch -> Ethernet -> R26

Scenario #2 sounded better to me, more open soundstage, better texture.

I've said it before in this thread, I'll say it again.
USB is NOT a good protocol to send PCM audio down (from an audiophile perspective).

TCP/IP is simple, no synchronous / asynchronous crap to deal with, USB is crazy more complex, and really does some crazy stuff to PCM data within it's transmission.
TCP/IP dumps the PCM data directly on the R26 buffer, which is PLL locked to the synthesizer. No intermediary steps!

Also, while yes there is electricity present (signals have to be carried by electricity, of course) a non POE Ethernet connection is going to carry a micro-fraction of power to the R26 vs the power USB carries.

USB has a dedicated 5V line for power, (hence the entire reason for devices like Zen Stream or Allo USB Signature, devices to make the USB 5V power very clean).
Another failing of USB, all the hassle and workaround just to make the 5V line clean.

I'm not going to say an "audiophile" switch won't matter, but I have a regular SOHO router, works just fine with R26.
Ethernet -> R26 direct is the best I've been able to make it sound.

I will be testing DI-20HE soon with R26, but I'm also doubting that will sound better than internal R26 ethernet.

As always, ymmv. Not dissuading people from trying U18, just saying what my direct experience is.

USB cable:
I am trying these days to optimize the sound quality of X26 PRO. USB cables are not all the same and some sound better than others (the one provided by Gustard is decent).

HDMI (IIS) cable:
Using the same USB cable, DDC-U18 is better with IIS cable.
HDMI cables (= IIS) are not all the same and a good cable leads to a better result than a generic cable.

USB pc controller:
Finally, the computer's USB controller makes a difference. A PCIe Matrix Element H USB3 card sounds better, even better if you switch off the power on the USB bus (U18 doesn't need USB power!)

ESS9038PRO:
All of the above probably depends on the fact that the ESS9038PRO chip has been implemented in synchronous mode making it more exposed to jitter.

10MHz clock?
It would be interesting to understand how much improvement an external 10MHz clock can be (Gustard C16 / C18, Mutec, Antelope, ...). It seems to me that I have been told that the X26PRO shines with the chain C18 -> usb U18 -> iis X26PRO.

 

[Nada]

All I need is a six dollar app (mconnect) and a decent ethernet cable, considering the Supra. Even at 30 feet it’s not too pricey. Now the only question remaining is how working through mconnect compares to Tidal connect which I use now and it’s pretty smooth.

With the recent posted process cant you avoid mconnect - its not meant to be that smooth and you save $6

WIth the Lan cable I wonder if you need an expensive cable. Its not like a headphone cable. The ethernet cable just has to conform to the digital transmission standards. Just an old Cat5 patch cable in a back cupboard would be fine.

If you need a long cable like 30' what about getting a $22 plug in repeater. That might actually do something by getting you off the busy local network.

 

[BShaw]

With the recent posted process cant you avoid mconnect - its not meant to be that smooth and you save $6

WIth the Lan cable I wonder if you need an expensive cable. Its not like a headphone cable. The ethernet cable just has to conform to the digital transmission standards. Just an old Cat5 patch cable in a back cupboard would be fine.

If you need a long cable like 30' what about getting a $22 plug in repeater. That might actually do something by getting you off the busy local network.

Yes a repeater is a great idea, then my cable will be only 1m long which is excellent.
If you’re referring to hacking the software I’m afraid that might just be too intimidating right now. This might sound crazy but I’ve been battling Lyme all summer and for now try to avoid intense mental exercises!!! But I’ll have another look, thanks nada.

 

[Alcophone]

Do you mean “in order not to degrade sound quality”? If I’m understanding what you said, it’s preferable to stream wifi to my zenstream and route through the u18?

That's why I like that the new iFi NEO Stream has a separate "OptiBox" to convert RJ45 Ethernet to an optical signal. So you get the perfect isolation of optical transmission AND the reliability of a wired connection without having to wonder about noise injected through an antenna and radio (which may be better or worse than whatever a patch cable picks up or passes on from the source).

 

[Nada]

Yes a repeater is a great idea, then my cable will be only 1m long which is excellent.

For a repeater Walmart has WIFI extenders with a LAN port for 8 bucks and shielded ethernet patch cable for 5 bucks and your done.

I hope you get over the Lyme fog and fatigue soon. Maybe pace yourself back?

By the way Qobuz often sounds better then Tidal and the Qobiz app may connect straight. It has a free trial.

 

[Nada]

That's why I like that the new iFi NEO Stream has a separate "OptiBox"

Thats great. Go buy it. Or maybe get the MSB thats had that feature for ages. In case you missed it this thread is for the R26 DAC which like most DACs has wired etherent. As for your speil about EMI pick up on ethernet cables - your getting overly worried. Ethenet has twisted pairs +/- a shield. EMI its not an issue. Unless you need something to obsess over. Then go right ahead.

 

[Alcophone]

Thats great. Go buy it. Or maybe get the MSB thats had that feature for ages.

Oh, nice. Didn't know that, very similar solution at first glance, indeed.
https://www.msbtechnology.com/dacs/prousb/

In case you missed it this thread is for the R26 DAC which like most DACs has wired etherent.

In case you missed it, I responded to a comment mentioning the iFi ZEN Stream.

Ethenet has twisted pairs +/- a shield. EMI its not an issue. Unless you need something to obsess over. Then go right ahead.

Sorry for introducing audiophilia nervosa into a discussion of... oh that's right, which of several digital connection methods might be the tiniest bit better.

 

[Nada]

Sorry for introducing audiophilia nervosa

Thats OK. I hope you get better soon.